PPP power is going up/up already?
15 January 2004, 10:41 AM
#91
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Chimp
On scoobynet, yes why not?
They are obviously reading these posts (see earlier in the thread)and a substantial proportion of their customer base access this site, so why not, it's called PR dear boy!
Who cares? Prodrive and dealers care thats who!
Dealers et al wouldn't give a damn! For example if a customer is so neurotic and opinionated that they feel they have chip in every time someone posts an opinion, they'd sell him a car / upgrade.
All they care about is the colour of their money!
Tittle-Tattle - thats exactly why they should post and end it now!
Sorted!!
Square Boot Lock - Good detail, probably worth upgrading on its own!
[Edited by Scooby - 1/15/2004 10:44:17 AM]
On scoobynet, yes why not?
They are obviously reading these posts (see earlier in the thread)and a substantial proportion of their customer base access this site, so why not, it's called PR dear boy!
Who cares? Prodrive and dealers care thats who!
Dealers et al wouldn't give a damn! For example if a customer is so neurotic and opinionated that they feel they have chip in every time someone posts an opinion, they'd sell him a car / upgrade.
All they care about is the colour of their money!
Tittle-Tattle - thats exactly why they should post and end it now!
Sorted!!
Square Boot Lock - Good detail, probably worth upgrading on its own!
[Edited by Scooby - 1/15/2004 10:44:17 AM]
15 January 2004, 01:02 PM
#92
John, I got the wrong post and paragraph mate! Try the 10th post IIRC on page 4:
I was actually thumbs down to IM and the lack of later model performance due to emissions, not aimed at you - sorry it read that way. I did want to point out that there may be another side to your quote above (no legislation caveat there) but didn't see the subsequent post with your qualifyer.
Can we kiss and make up, although perhaps not at Bedford?
F
[Edited by Floyd - 1/15/2004 1:08:22 PM]
I would expect every release of PPP to be better than the previous one (even if the headline power/torque figures are identical), even with them all being EcuTek based, because almost daily stephen done is unlocking more functionality in these ECU's and i would expect the mappers out there, including Prodrive, to make use of this.
Can we kiss and make up, although perhaps not at Bedford?
F
[Edited by Floyd - 1/15/2004 1:08:22 PM]
Forget the kiss mate, and you can keep the makeup for your nights out.
15 January 2004, 01:33 PM
#94
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In the official release:
And let's not forget it's not even released yet so nothing is official, just rumour and speculation
$0.02
will feature a power upgrade to around 320 PS
$0.02
16 January 2004, 02:47 PM
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And let's not forget it's not even released yet so nothing is official, just rumour and speculation
The forthcoming 320ps version we are working on for 04MY cars uses different hardware to our current package so it is not the same as you have now.
16 January 2004, 03:13 PM
#96
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I take it the "unhappy" MY03 PPP owners havnt noticed one thing...
MY04.
Ford for years have been doing rolling developement on their cars, ie they add new bits to it, it may look the same on the outside but on the inside there are changes.
If you want to keep having the latest thing then you have to go out and buy it, otherwise its like going back to Comet and saying "I bought this 60inch screen tv last year, you now do a 62inch tv and i want that for nothing as you never told me about it" (the fact that it was still being tested probably had something to do with it
)
No doubt when there is a new set of alloys out, you whingers will be back there asking for your money back or new alloys
Its rolling developement, tough luck (or for the next 4 years we can have no developement at all and then you can complain the car sucks?).
Tony
[Edited by TonyBurns - 1/16/2004 3:14:04 PM]
MY04.
Ford for years have been doing rolling developement on their cars, ie they add new bits to it, it may look the same on the outside but on the inside there are changes.
If you want to keep having the latest thing then you have to go out and buy it, otherwise its like going back to Comet and saying "I bought this 60inch screen tv last year, you now do a 62inch tv and i want that for nothing as you never told me about it" (the fact that it was still being tested probably had something to do with it
)No doubt when there is a new set of alloys out, you whingers will be back there asking for your money back or new alloys
Its rolling developement, tough luck (or for the next 4 years we can have no developement at all and then you can complain the car sucks?).
Tony
[Edited by TonyBurns - 1/16/2004 3:14:04 PM]
16 January 2004, 05:45 PM
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....And I guess the rest of Mike's quote
answers my question. In other words, they could fit the board/map to an '02, but they won't because Turbos might go prematurely with associated warranty claims/unhappy campers. Is that right Mike, if you're there???
Never mind..... it's not as if my 02/PPP is exactly slow
Phil
We can also give you 333bhp as TSL have claimed for your car, but for how long???? To get that power output the turbo is working outside of it's efficiency range and it's life will be reduced.
Never mind..... it's not as if my 02/PPP is exactly slow
Phil
17 January 2004, 01:20 PM
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it is compared t a tsl map
I doubt a 30bhp/30lb/ft difference would make the lower powered car feel "slow". Not as fast maybe...Are TSL willing to take over the factory warranty and repair your car for free if the engine happens to eat itself? If the answer is no, I daresay there will be plenty of owners out there who will be happy to stick to the IM approved upgrade path, even if it doesn't offer quite as much ultimate go as some third party tuners...
Tony, you're so right about the whingers, BTW. Seems like the concept of product improvement prompting sales is alien to a few of them.
but thats all
17 January 2004, 04:23 PM
#103
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Phil,
You missed mate
Pure speculation here (what else ) but I think the turbo used on the MY02/MY03 and MY04 STi UK's use the same turbo so that is not the reason (if that bit of speculation is true). But anyway, what Mike means is that, when you run the turbo beyond it's spec, you produce too much hot air, generally causing det, which destroys engines which obviously, they want to avoid as IM will have to pay for the repair.
The gist of your point was of course a good one though
Now........Mike?
Matt
You missed mate
answers my question. In other words, they could fit the board/map to an '02, but they won't because Turbos might go prematurely with associated warranty claims/unhappy campers. Is that right Mike, if you're there???
) but I think the turbo used on the MY02/MY03 and MY04 STi UK's use the same turbo so that is not the reason (if that bit of speculation is true). But anyway, what Mike means is that, when you run the turbo beyond it's spec, you produce too much hot air, generally causing det, which destroys engines which obviously, they want to avoid as IM will have to pay for the repair.The gist of your point was of course a good one though
Now........Mike?
Matt
17 January 2004, 06:34 PM
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someone from prodrive needs to answer some points raised here or i will be off to tls for the 333!
all i want to know is will the new 320 package be for all new age sti`s
is an there an upgrade option for those with ppp?
all i want to know is will the new 320 package be for all new age sti`s
is an there an upgrade option for those with ppp?
17 January 2004, 06:48 PM
#105
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OK,
I emailed Prodrive directly about this last week and have had a reply from them about the backwards compatibilty.
They say that there are mechinical changes on the WR1 from the packages previously available, and do intend to test it to see if its backwards compatible.
They also mention that the major drawback to the MY02 is the size of the intercooler scoop and its lack of efficiency at high speeds so they would not want to push the envelope further.
Thats the reply I got.
I've got no problems in getting a larger scoop for my STi7 if thats whats needed. I found that jap-innovations.co.uk sell the STi8 scoop to fit the STi7 so I'm going to get one of these.
I emailed Prodrive directly about this last week and have had a reply from them about the backwards compatibilty.
They say that there are mechinical changes on the WR1 from the packages previously available, and do intend to test it to see if its backwards compatible.
They also mention that the major drawback to the MY02 is the size of the intercooler scoop and its lack of efficiency at high speeds so they would not want to push the envelope further.
Thats the reply I got.
I've got no problems in getting a larger scoop for my STi7 if thats whats needed. I found that jap-innovations.co.uk sell the STi8 scoop to fit the STi7 so I'm going to get one of these.
17 January 2004, 06:54 PM
#106
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So does that mean your going to lay out another 2k for a new PPP?
There are more than just a few cosmetic changes from the 7 to the 8, the engine has different components in there which the 7 doesnt have (uprated parts) so you have a stumbling block already.
The fact that 305ps isnt enough for you all (but it must have been at the time otherwise you wouldnt have bought the PPP to start with) is getting beyond a joke....
If you lot cannot understand what rolling developement is then tough, everything changes with different MY's so the developement is there to adapt to them, not to go backwards and leave the Marque that most people originally went for because of the enjoyment and not just because its a bargain performance car...
Just pull your fingers out and see what happens in the real world and not in the world of the telly tubbies
Tony
[Edited by TonyBurns - 1/17/2004 6:56:01 PM]
There are more than just a few cosmetic changes from the 7 to the 8, the engine has different components in there which the 7 doesnt have (uprated parts) so you have a stumbling block already.
The fact that 305ps isnt enough for you all (but it must have been at the time otherwise you wouldnt have bought the PPP to start with) is getting beyond a joke....
If you lot cannot understand what rolling developement is then tough, everything changes with different MY's so the developement is there to adapt to them, not to go backwards and leave the Marque that most people originally went for because of the enjoyment and not just because its a bargain performance car...
Just pull your fingers out and see what happens in the real world and not in the world of the telly tubbies
Tony
[Edited by TonyBurns - 1/17/2004 6:56:01 PM]
17 January 2004, 08:11 PM
#107
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Tony,
Really? Got the details? I thought the MY02 and 03 UK STi engines and drivetrains were the same? Stand to be corrected but.....
Matt
There are more than just a few cosmetic changes from the 7 to the 8, the engine has different components in there which the 7 doesnt have (uprated parts) so you have a stumbling block already.
Matt
18 January 2004, 11:59 AM
#108
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MY02 STi engine code EJ207WW4CR transmission code TY856WN2CA
MY03 STi engine code EJ207NW5CR transmission code TY856WN3CA
From my limited knowledge and data available the W and N refer to exhaust and 4 and 5 refer to minor changes in specification BUT the CR defines the major revision is the same.
Similarly on the transmission the minor revision is different but the major revision is the same.
The standard within engineering is than anything within the same major revision should be compatable. Anyone got the data for the MY04 STi?
Steve
MY03 STi engine code EJ207NW5CR transmission code TY856WN3CA
From my limited knowledge and data available the W and N refer to exhaust and 4 and 5 refer to minor changes in specification BUT the CR defines the major revision is the same.
Similarly on the transmission the minor revision is different but the major revision is the same.
The standard within engineering is than anything within the same major revision should be compatable. Anyone got the data for the MY04 STi?
Steve
20 January 2004, 02:11 PM
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Just my little query to add to this debate,
Could the clutch be different between the 01/02/03 cars and the '04 car, obvisiouly the engine destruction would cost more than to replace the clutch, but how many of us drive at the point where the engine is stressed to a very high amount for a long period of time. If this '04 PPP is producing more BHP/lbft as is being claimed would it be just too much for the older clutches???? causing IM to replace loads of them at their own cost.
John.
Could the clutch be different between the 01/02/03 cars and the '04 car, obvisiouly the engine destruction would cost more than to replace the clutch, but how many of us drive at the point where the engine is stressed to a very high amount for a long period of time. If this '04 PPP is producing more BHP/lbft as is being claimed would it be just too much for the older clutches???? causing IM to replace loads of them at their own cost.
John.
20 January 2004, 02:33 PM
#115
Interesting question John.
The PPP has to be designed so that the whole car can take the extra output for 3 years, that includes diffs, driveshafts, clutch etc. You should find that the STi has equipment rated much higher than the 320PS/300Lbft that this new PPP will produce, the stock STi Clutch seems pretty happy up to around 350BHP/Lbft it seems, even over extended periods, there are cars running 380BHP on a stock clutch that i am aware of.
I think the main issue with the STi7 is the size of the bonnet scoop and the concern that at high speed the cooling might not be as good as IM/Prodrive want to guarantee suficient safety. They have to take into account all the variables that people will put this car through and to a certain extent design it around the less sensible person who will nail it from the lights with the charge temperature at 75 degrees on a red hot summers day and then take it to a high speed, rather than giving it a little time to drop back down to safe levels.
One of the best things i fitted to my car is a charge temp gauge, its very useful and shows you how the air temp going into the engine varies so much depending on conditions and the type of driving you are doing. It's a shame the Subaru ECU doesnt read charge temp and compensate for that, i have never understood why they dont, a cossie does and how old is that?
The PPP has to be designed so that the whole car can take the extra output for 3 years, that includes diffs, driveshafts, clutch etc. You should find that the STi has equipment rated much higher than the 320PS/300Lbft that this new PPP will produce, the stock STi Clutch seems pretty happy up to around 350BHP/Lbft it seems, even over extended periods, there are cars running 380BHP on a stock clutch that i am aware of.
I think the main issue with the STi7 is the size of the bonnet scoop and the concern that at high speed the cooling might not be as good as IM/Prodrive want to guarantee suficient safety. They have to take into account all the variables that people will put this car through and to a certain extent design it around the less sensible person who will nail it from the lights with the charge temperature at 75 degrees on a red hot summers day and then take it to a high speed, rather than giving it a little time to drop back down to safe levels.
One of the best things i fitted to my car is a charge temp gauge, its very useful and shows you how the air temp going into the engine varies so much depending on conditions and the type of driving you are doing. It's a shame the Subaru ECU doesnt read charge temp and compensate for that, i have never understood why they dont, a cossie does and how old is that?
20 January 2004, 02:42 PM
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JohnF, thanks for that mate, interesting point about the charge temp sensor though, as you say why haven't they added one into the management readable stuff when the cossie had one (jez a car that come out in 1985), do you have any info on the system you are using? is it easy to install etc?
Thanks
John.
Thanks
John.
20 January 2004, 04:27 PM
#117
very easy to install. It was designed, funnyly enough for a cossie. The way i did it was drill and tap a hole in the factory BOV and through into the IC, the thermocouple is mounted in a take off for the cossie plenum, so you just screw that in then.
The thermocouple connects to a display inside the car that just requires a switched power source.
I bought this from mike rainbird, cost about £60 i think.
The thermocouple connects to a display inside the car that just requires a switched power source.
I bought this from mike rainbird, cost about £60 i think.
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