chrisp

305 / 1.470 = 207.5 ps/ton

320/ 1.470 = 217.5 ps/ton


ie less than 10bhp/ton difference at maximum power (which is unlikely to be at the same rpms).So it really depends on the power and torque curves.

Prodrive normally release their power and torque curves and it would be good to see the overall differences between the two graphs.

mutant_matt

Indeed! Area under the curve is more important than the peak figures!

Matt

ARM-Scooby

*** Unsubstanciated accusation removed *** - see below.
Nick.

[Edited by chiark - 1/13/2004 5:32:20 PM]

Dazza's-STi

FYI a FQ300 is exactly 10bhp Per-ton more than the STI PPP
And @ 60 its 15m in front and @ 100 its 49m in front...

I've not seen any info anywhere that the 04 motor has different components! Where are the tech details on the 04 that everyone is relating to? Wasn't thier a lost of changes between the 7-8 or MY02-MY03
Dzzzzzzzzzz

DrEvil

Dazza's-STi - talking to people in the business directly or indirectly linked with Subaru has provided the information regarding the engine changes being minimal, well in my case anyway.

Rgds, Alex

Nick Wadeson

Care to expand on that?

Nick

DrEvil

Nick - I wouldn't take too much notice of that, nobody else seems to have.

Phil Harrison

Ah....... That flushed 'em out - So Prodrive are awake after all When might we hear from you or Mike, Nick? Clearly there' s some potential business here, so long as the technicals are OK and the warranty risks aren't raised to unacceptable levels.

P1Doc -
. Can you substantiate that??? Wasn't the consensus at the time IIRR.

Phil

[Edited by Phil Harrison - 1/13/2004 5:12:25 PM]

greasemonkey

Your point being? I doubt many potential STi PPP customers buy their cars for the express purpose of drag-racing Evo FQ300's, so to a large extent your comment is irrelevant.

I'd imagine most of the people who buy an Impreza STi Type UK buy one because they like its particular combination of strengths, not simply because of how it compares to another car on paper. Similarly, I'd imagine the bulk of Evo FQ owners buy them because they like that particular car's combination of qualities, not simply because it's supposedly quicker than an Impreza STi PPP at the traffic light grand prix.

In other words, if you want a car that performs the same as an Evo FQ300, you should probably buy an Evo FQ300, and if you're expecting Subaru UK to produce a car that slavishly mimics the performance of the FQ range, I hope you're not holding your breath...

[Edited by greasemonkey - 1/13/2004 5:19:09 PM]

johnfelstead

Phil, although i didnt say that, the earlier STi7 PPP isnt as good as the EcuTek version, thats why Prodrive dont use that method anymore and went to EcuTek to enable them to do a full reprogram of the ECU.

I would expect every release of PPP to be better than the previous one (even if the headline power/torque figures are identical), even with them all being EcuTek based, because almost daily stephen done is unlocking more functionality in these ECU's and i would expect the mappers out there, including Prodrive, to make use of this.

It's the same with all EcuTek remappers, they are learning more and getting better tools to do the job almost on a daily basis. Stephen Done is one of those guys you dont hear much about but is doing fantastic work for people who own Subaru's. Steve is one of the most important UK Subaru tuning sucess stories we have.

chiark

ARM-Scooby - I have edited your post because it was libellous as it stood. Either back your accusations up with fact, or don't make them.
Regards,
nick.

Phil Harrison

JF - Understand your point completely. The original assertion was part of a generally negative post, and for me the bottom line is, if one version of PPP produces the same output figures as another then I, for one, am indifferent to what the gubbins are!! There was some anxiety at the time, with Piggy-backers feeling 'done down' and worried as to whether single-boarders had had a better deal (not too far different from this thread, in fact!!). The consensus was that, although the solution was less 'elegant', it did the biz just the same. I wondered, therefore, if P1Doc had evidence of inferior bottom-line figures!

It sounds, then, as if I could go to a remapper pretty safely @ the three-year point, if Prodrive don't make a 'retrofit'??

Cheers

Phil

Cheers

Phil

Apple

On a related topic - are there any known variations on the MY02 WRX PPP now that it's ECUTEK based?

Are there any "newer" / "better" maps in a released series with differing outputs? By ordering PPP, I'd hope I get the "latest"...

Is it now up to similar figures to the MY03 output?

Any thoughts?

johnfelstead

There is way too much emphasis on peak power and torque figures these days. What matters most is the transition states part throttle or coming on boost, but thats something you cant measure on a rolling road or a drag strip.

My own take on this is that Prodrive will be working on this product on an ongoing basis and changing the map as they get more experience. They could quite easily keep the peak power/torque figures identical yet fine tune how it works in these transition states.

There are things you can do with EcuTek you couldnt not so long ago, for example you can alter the boost profile to match the charicteristics of the turbo, you can also have the waste gate duty map altered depending on what gear you are in, making the car pull more boost in the lower gears than it would using a map designed for the highest load state of 6th gear.

How Prodrive release these improvements is only something they could answer, they may be tied to doing one release per year by IM, they may be allowed to introduce these features after a few months testing, they may choose to not tell us even if they are doing phased releases to prevent the issues we are discusing here.

What can be guaranteed is that each major years release is going to be a better product, which is entirely how it should be. That is the same in every aspect of the car if they are doing it right, within current legislation allowances.

As to what you can do outside the 3 year waranty period. The answer is pretty simple, anyone with the right tools can remap your ECU be it a PPP or stock setup. PPP is not going to push the engine as much as a custom remap will do, because they have to design more margin in to the map to cater for production tolerences. You cant beat a custom remap. Who you choose to carry out that remap is the next issue that is very important both in terms of drivability and safety.

It is unrealistic to expect an off the shelf map to be as performant as a properly setup custom remap, what you are buying with the PPP is the waranty cover and a very good level of performance. If you were to go to someone like Bob Rawle, you have the option of a custom remap and also the ability to have a reflash as and when new features are released. They are diferent markets and i dont think we apreciate that enough some times.

sammyh

iTrader: (1)

On Project Gotham racing maybe

In real life its closer than you suggest.

greasemonkey

mutant_matt

Well said John!!

Sammy, I can't find an FQ300 in Project Gotham Racing...

Matt

Apple

John - I agree with you about figure chasing. I'm not after ultimate power and pub bragging rights - I'd much prefer driveability and flexibility at whatever power i.e. more torque lower down the rev range...

I was just after whether there were different releases that the end user could find out about (and hence which are "old spec") - I would hope that you would get the latest available configuration that was "production approved" for your MY. As you say, everybody's in a development loop so things should improve over time...

I understand about PPP maps being "conservative" to cover all vehicles and that customer specific maps may be able to push the boundaries further but at present I have a warranty I'd like to keep sweet with official dealers (or at least give them less opportunity to wriggle out of honouring )

Apple

greasemonkey

If there were "mid-term" refinements and improvements Apple, I'd imagine that Prodrive/IM would keep any details very close to their chests, otherwise it'd cause problems of the sort we're seeing here, where the guys who bought PPP's four days/weeks/months (etc.) start getting p*ssy and demanding upgrades when they hear some random rumour about the latest versions developing 306.3ps instead of the 305ps they've got.

As you're aware, these things are subject to tolerance, and in any case, there's always the clause about the manufacturer reserving the right to improve the product without prior notice. Thus, I'm sure that whatever the exact reality, the published line on the current PPP is that it's 305ps, and that's what it is.


[Edited by greasemonkey - 1/14/2004 12:55:06 AM]

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

JF said:
When Subaru released the MY00 they claimed the same power level as the MY99 and better fuel figures in their blurb, but I proved it was down some 15BHP on the MY99, which I had previously. This was of course an emissions amendment but they didn't improve anything with the newer release to please me (probably pleased the tree huggers though ). What I am getting at is you can't guarantee that the next release will be better, as previous warranty history or legislation may make them reduce the performance in some way. I doubt if Prodrive would advertise that either for obvious reasons.

And another thing, why are some people so hung up on the PPP figures that they have to RR their car to prove them! Do you really think Prodrive will do anything if its slightly down on claimed? Afterall each car will behave subtley differently to the PPP maps.

F

p1doc

i test drove an sti7 ppp with 10,000 miles on and waited till it was warmed up then had a good go,i was very disappointed as several times when i tried to accelerate or overtake i pressed the throttle got a response then aloss of power then power back again-scarey for me. i talked to the salesman about it who said it was due to the boost clamp and it was normal- it put me right off and i waited for the sti8 which i felt was much better. i cant tell you re figures as i am not as technically minded as others just from what i experienced myself.
the tsl map makes the ppp much smoother and economical to drive than before and i would recommend it-278 bhp at wheels but as tsl said it is not figures but driveability they are aiming for
martin

nigsy

I would just like to point out that the EVO VII is NOT faster in a straight line than the STI in Project Gotham !!

Scooby

Come on Prodrive, let's have some form of official statement, it would seem from some of the posts that keeping Mum about this may impact sales of 03 PPP's until there is an official statement.

It may also defer people's decision to buy an 03 Sti if they believe that the 04 will be the better bet, and who knows while they are waiting they may be lured into buying something from another manufacturer!

And if the WR1 is an 03 with 320 then lets have some details as to how the rest of us 03 owners who have gone the 18" and Prodrive Spring route can upgrade without having to pay over the odds to upgrade to an almost identical car except for horrid colour - (OK and DCCD-A)?

johnfelstead

If you are going to quote me, quote the paragraph so you can see what context I put this in. I did state that this could be affected by changes in legislation. I was also specifically referring to the EcuTek PPP, which is why I then go on to say the same should be the case for the rest of the car if done right.

You then even pick up on the fact I stated which you chose not to highlight with this.

Try to read what I write in full next time before giving me the thumbs down please Floyd.

greasemonkey

On what? Speculation on Scoobynet? If you expected Mike and Nick to comment officially on every silly rumour that does the rounds here, they'd never have time to do any work.

Lol, I think you're giving the scaremonging a little too much weight there.

Who cares? If potential customers are suffiently neurotic that they could be swayed by unsubstantiated gossip, I doubt the dealers will miss them.

There you go again, shooting off on a tangent on the basis of unsupported tittle-tattle. Until/unless we hear anything to the contrary, the balance of probability is that the WR1 is an MY04 car. The line went into production in October (well into MY04 period), and it has the square boot lock of the other '04's, which is as much as any of us have to go on ATM...

midlander123

I've purchased a new sti in the last few weeks and will have the PPP fitted at the first service as instructed by the dealer, I shall be happy with 295 or 305 or 320bhp as this car is for the road and not for racing around Dyffi 2 with, how much power do you folks want?

AndyBrew

Of course a product will be continually improved thats normal with everything, however with an enthusiast type product like the scoob you would hope that if 320 was achievable it would be offered at an upgrade that you pay for, surely?

its taking me all my powers of will power not to void my warranty as it is, and as for how much power do you want...

AS MUCH AS I CAN GET ...... YEEEHAAAAA

Daz34

I would want as much as I can get for the £2000 price!!

NXG

A few people seem to be missing the point?

I'm just happy that Prodrive are continuing development and are regularly releasing improved products. It gives me something to look forward to come trade-in time in a couple of years.

Are they going to do this work for nothing? Would you?

Steve

Phil Harrison

Don't think anyone is now seriously suggesting it should be for free, any more that you expect a free Chip for your PC every time AMD/Intel up the processor speed!!

All I, for one, am asking is..... Can it be done to an 02 STi? (answer, possibly, but unlikely) and ...If so, how much?

Phil