DJ140

320BHP for the 04STI, how can anyone be agrieved that the PPP they've just bought for the 03STI be somehow obsolete, it's not for the current car.

Would anyone that had recently bought new wheels and a spoiler for their STI want an upgrage FOC to the new items from the 04STI?!!!

If you want the 04 PPP buy an 04STI, now stop complaining and get down to the bank to arrange that loan.

MattW

I think the issue will be whether new PPP upgrades can go straight to 330. I understand all the arguments however you must have an Evo330 before you can upgrade to 330, however if you could start with an Sti265 and add PPP to 330, effectively 305 becomes obselete, i'd be pished off.

johnfelstead

Why? Whats better, sticking with 305PS for ever or improving the product as you learn more and new features are released by EcuTek?

If we all had that attitude we would still be driving black model T Fords with 20BHP.

Scooby

Customers have a right to feel agrieved when their decision to buy an STi03 may have been influenced on information from a dealer that their are no significant differences will exist between the MY03 and MY04 - a 10 percent power hike possibility is a significant differnce in my book, how desirable for example will a 300BHP car at resale when compared with a 320 or 330 BHP equivalent, IM need to get their act in gear and stop shafting their customers and make these upgrades backwards compatible.
I cant believe that the revised ECU upgrade wouldn't work on an STi03 if bugger all has changed elsewhere on the car!

[Edited by Scooby - 1/10/2004 11:43:06 AM]

hedgehog

Think how many people might now consider an 04 car because they can have the extra BHP!!

It is unfortunate and sad but we are just victims of a clever, but fairly transparent, marketing strategy. That's probably why the details are being "leaked" so far in advance - to allow 03 users to sell and upgrade to 04 cars without taking any big hit in 2nd hand prices because no one wants an 03. Subaru shift more cars in the short term, Prodrive shift more PPP packages and so they are happy. Long term customers get annoyed and Subaru shift less cars.

I've an 03 and will not be selling it for another year. However, as Subaru have closed my dealer it will not be another Subaru. Another triumph of marketing over common sense and another Subaru owner who will not be back. Well done IM.

G00ner

Imagine how us Bugeye STi owners felt when firstly,

A facelifted model is released that looks considerably better than our version,

It was £2500 cheaper.

Then the crude Boost clamp PPP is surpassed by the Ecutek remap version, making my version obsolete and possibly harder to sell.

Any one of those items I could live with, but all 3 at once was too much.

Daz34

Now that is extortionate

Phil Harrison

To the point as always. As an original Piggyback-PPP owner I hope Mike (or whoever) will address this question when he eventually posts. I don't expect it for free, but I would expect to be quoted a "sensible" price - for example, on production of my PPP certificate - which recognises the profit already made on the original supply and the fact that most of the components aren't being supplied/fitted again. What's it worth to me??? about £300 tops, I should think

Phil (MY02STi(UK)/PPP)

Scooby

Agree with your comments Phil and John, I believe that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that when a new software version is in the pipeline it is in the distributors interest to make this available if not free, but for a modest sum.

This is a valid approach particularly where no other hardware or mechanicals are affected, this way sales aren't affected as customers can buy safely in the knowledge that what they are buying will not be obsolete shortly after their outlay.

I remember Getting Office 95 a few years back and when Office 97 came out 3 months later I received this for a negligible sum, now if Microsoft can do this then why not IM/Prodrive?

[Edited by Scooby - 1/10/2004 5:14:17 PM]

greasemonkey

They don't "have" to compete with Mitsubishi at all.

Subaru don't have to slavishly echo what Mitsu does, and I doubt they'd want to become involved in a juvenile "Mine's got more than yours" p*ss*ng contest. If you asked them now, they'd probably claim that they're convinced their car is already a superior package irrespective of its headline power output. If a higher powered PPP is released, I'm sure the reason will be, as has been expressed above, simply that the R&D work done over the last 12 months has found ways in which more power can safely be extracted from the engine.

Sorry, but that's b*ll*cks. Unless you just arrived from another planet, you'll know that manufacturers constantly improve their products, as this encourages current owners to upgrade. Anyone who relies on unofficial nods and winks from car dealers (of all people) about what the future will hold should be sterilised so their abject naivety doesn't handicap future generations. Car dealers exist to sell cars, not serve their customers best interests...

Seeing as you're fond of making analogies to the computer industry, if you bought a PC today, then found next week that you could buy something newer and faster for the same money, would you take the PC in and demand it was upgraded to the specification of the newer machine? Of course you wouldn't! You bought what you bought, and that's that.

You're not comparing like with like, are you? When you bought that copy of Office 95, there was no doubt a voucher or receipt redemption scheme entitling you to the cut-price upgrade. In other words, you knew (officially) about the existence of the newer product before you bought the older one, and also knew before you bought it that you'd be entitled to the upgrade as part of your original sales contract. That situation does not exist with the PPP.

As things stand, there is no announced STi PPP "upgrade" beyond the current 305ps level, and thus there's no legal or moral reason why Prodrive should feel obliged to retrospectively update current PPP owners to a newer specification (should one subsequently be announced), whether they feel aggrieved or not.

In any case, you can't compare the sales model adopted by Microsoft to the car industry, as there is little relevance. The profit margin on Office is f*ck*ng enormous, so it's far easier for MS to offer "discounts" and other upgrade incentives.

Scooby

Oh dear Mr Monkey you are somewhat missing the point here, we are talking about software here, hence the software related analogies and parralels.

I was suggesting that if Prodrive are going to start releasing SOFTWARE updates when the HARDWARE is CONSTANT then perhaps they should look to something similar to the example I gave re Office products, i.e. they could continue to sell the old version in the period until the new version is available with the customers safe in the knowledge that they aren't being shafted!

Pissing people off is not the way to sell more cars.

Its probably NIAIVE to think that Prodrive has performed any EXTRA R&D on this upgrade in any case this was probably part of the original R&D work on the 03 PPP, IM probably thinking they can squeeze a bit more out and generate more sales by not letting us have it all in one go.

Finally I suggest that you tone down the superfluous sentiments included within your entries on here, I am sure that you can share your obviously abundant wisdom with us without having to rely upon derogatory or abusive statements, it's not big or clever!

[Edited by Scooby - 1/10/2004 7:08:00 PM]

greasemonkey

You don't know that the hardware is constant, do you? As things stand there may be detail changes to the engine itself, or to the MY04 ECU that facilitate a little more safe power.

It's also just as likely that the performance/reliability information Prodrive have gathered since the EcuTeK based PPP was introduced has enabled them to refine/improve the package.

Eh? How can you use Office as an example of customers "not being shafted"? Do you have any idea how cheaply MS can sell this product and still make a tidy profit on it?

Maybe it is, but again, what's your point? IM/Subaru can sell the cars with whatever marketing/social engineering tricks they like, provided they don't break any laws doing so. If you don't like IM's marketing policy, buy an import.

The thing that makes me laugh is that all the spleen-venting in this thread is based purely (at this point in time) on conjecture. Let's wait and see what, if anything, is announced, and also whether or not it'll be offered to existing owners, before passing comment...

Scooby

Well done, I knew you could do it!

greasemonkey

?

WRX_BLUES

Okay, just spoke to Mike Wood and he has told me that the new PPP is being developed for the MY04 only. Apparently there are some mechanical differences and possibly a different exhaust which may not be compatible with the MY03. He also said that he might make a comment on this forum.

Thanks Mike for your time.

Simon Lines

Up to the minute reporting

WRX_BLUES

Well I had to find out asap as I am having the PPP installed this week
I am more reassured to know that I won't be short changed now.

KJ

I picked my STI8 up from having the PPP\Springs\wheels upgrades 4days ago. Is it looking likely to be a small fee to enhance the existing upgrade to the 330bhp when released? there seems to be a lot of inside information going on here so thought I'd ask.

WRX_BLUES

KJ,

The new PPP is being developed solely for the MY04. So it should not affect your MY03.

greasemonkey

KJ, you're putting two and two together and making seven there!

For starters, nobody has said that the output of the "new" PPP is 330 (bhp or ps). The WR1 is 320ps IIRC, and I rather doubt they'd introduce a more powerful PPP for the "normal" cars.

Secondly, while nothing is official until it's official, WRXBlues conversation with Mike W seems to make pretty clear that changes to the MY04 cars are responsible for the higher power output, and if this is the case, it seems unlikely that there will be an upgrade for current 305ps PPP owners.

KJ

cheers greasemonkey. Just checking, dont want to miss out on anything. Well happy with the current upgrades!

Dazza's-STi

Surly the MY04 engine isn't that different to the 03. Or atleast whatever is the change can't be added to the 03...
Seems very odd to me, they would be missing out on revenue and that very unlike any company!

Anyhow we'll see what the changes are i suppose. If so then its the aftermaket route for me!

greasemonkey

Motor vehicle manufacturers evolve and refine their products every model year Dazza, so it's eminently possible that the engines (and ECU's) could be appreciably different in terms of componentry.

However, if comments above are accurate, it seems that changes to the exhaust system on the MY04 cars are principally responsible for the increase in power. Either way, it's getting increasingly pointless to speculate on speculation, so let's wait and see what happens officially.

nellie

Apparently when the PPP was first developed for the 02 STI Prodrive could quite easily get 340bhp out of it but due to reliabilty issues IM wanted it reduced to improve reliabilty and to stop STIs going bang and therefore avoiding loads of new engines,and as the engines on the 03s are the same as the 02s it makes sense that if there are different componants on the 04s which can reliably take the extra power then 320/330 will only be available for that model and not the 02/03s as they will still be in warrenty,so the chances of blown engines will still be there.Just my thoughts anyway!!! from a EX STI7PPP owner!!

[Edited by nellie - 1/13/2004 12:16:01 AM]

johnfelstead

The STi7 PPP was a completely diferent product that didnt use an EcuTek remap, it wasnt as capable of producing as much power in such a safe way as the current system.

It's not dificult to get 320BHP from an STi8 using an EcuTek remap and the rest of the PPP kit, so even with the same hardware i see no reason why it isnt feasable to gain the same output on the MY03 as the MY04.

It's like all products, you refine them as you learn how to use them and you are able to get more out of them in safety as you build up an understanding of what effects your changes make.

Prodrive have to be very careful with their PPP power levels because they have to make sure it wont increase waranty claims for IM at the same time as being a plug and play swap rather than a custom to the individual car remap. The spec may be the same but each engine isnt identical in its performance, some will have slightly higher compresion than others due to manufacturing tolerences for example so the PPP has to take that into account. Learning what the various combinations of tolerences effects takes time so its entirely expected that gains will be made over the life of the product, even if the spec stays constant.

Phil Harrison

Er - JF - I thought that STi7 PPP (Ver 2) was an ECUTek-mapped replacement (single) board, and that the 02 and 03 engines are effectively identical (and more similar to each other than they to the 04 as I understand the drift of this thread). Hence my expectation that, at the "reasonable" cost of board and fitting, it ought to be possible to upgrade my 02 (Piggyback) PPP installation.

Any idea when Prodrive may be persuaded to say something on this board....??

Cheers

Phil

DrEvil

Just a thought - but surely it would not make sense to produce two PPP kits post the '04 version release - and the more people I speak to, the more it seems the '04 engine is essentially the same as the '03 (minor improvements on the '03 over the '02).

Would you notice if you '03 PPP had 320PS over 310PS (was/is it?) when driving it? Probably not, and financially it wouldn't make sense to continue producing the current '03 version of the PPP kit as well as a new PPP kit from a manufacturing point of view, surely.

Just some random thoughts....

Alex

p1doc

get the tsl triple 3
i had a chat to subaru at autosport show who said the wr1 is an 03 model with 320 bhp and there is no chance of old ppp being upgraded even for money and smiled as he said this and then locked the wr1 door so you could not have a look in-i made my choice there and then hence the tsl triple 3
mitsubishi can offer upgrades for theie fq models so why cant subaru as they are just alienating more subau owners for example
1) p1 increased from 500 - 1000 leaving unsold cars nearly a year later
2)uk 300 owners being told they will have the best subaru-1 month later the sti is released for about the same price
3)sti7 ppp not being as good as sti8 ppp
4) prodrive releasing wr1 for a competitve price with 320ppp , dccd etc despite mike wood telling people that there are no plans to increase ppp
martin

urban

iTrader: (1)

Phil,

You're correct, the Vers 2 STI7 PPP is Ecutek based(Which I got when I bought the PPP and not the "piggy back" board which you've got at the moment.

Shaun

johnfelstead

Sorry, i should have said the early STi7 PPP was a piggy back boost clamp based upgrade, the later STi7 PPP was the first of the EcuTek based upgrades. The early ones didnt have a fuel pump upgrade either, although they were recalled and retro fitted once Prodrive decided that it was required.