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The End of Phase 1 ... The beginning of Phase 2

Old 05 January 2004, 04:30 PM
  #31  
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Sorry Bob....but...

Pat,

This should make it interesting to compare the new generation STi models to the previous... already it seems pretty clear that the new turbo / header combination works somewhat better than the older cars...
Interesting comment, from what I can see from Callum F's, Darren Tidy's, Johnno's, and certainly with the problems I have had with trying to extract power from my 8, the older cars seem to be alot more responsive to mods than the newage STi7 & 8's, (Bob, I'm excluding your 9 because of its different turbo, headers, up-pipe, downpipe, larger ports, more agressive intake cams and the fact that your already only 30 hp below my heavily modded STi 8 just with a remap )

Conrad

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 1/5/2004 4:33:32 PM]
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Old 05 January 2004, 10:58 PM
  #32  
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Conrad : What you need is a proper turbo. Also, why have you got rid of VVT ? BTW, Vernier cam pulleys would only fit on the exhausts.
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Old 05 January 2004, 11:34 PM
  #33  
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To be fair Callums is not mapped to potential, it should have been making 400/450 at least, Jonno's turbo is similar to yours with a larger comp housing iirc? least he changed it for a larger one and we bumped the performance quite a bit. Darrens is a bit of an enigma, it "should" be doing more but doesn't want the timing at the moment, some other things in the pipeline to assist there which will help resolve. Still its doing nice torque even if the top end still needs some work.

Pat ... "I would expect it to pull in around 2700-ish" ... you are dreaming a bit there, if it (STi9) will achieve a bar at 3200 in fourth it will be doing well, currently makes it at 3400, my VF36 replacement will help as will the exhaust but ... headers my dear Watson plus a couple of other factors. We will see, as I drive it every day its not going to take long to get it sorted once I have it back !!!

cheers

bob
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Old 06 January 2004, 09:38 AM
  #34  
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Bob, thanks for that clarification, interesting comment about Darrens not wanting the timing, sounds like mine, seems some of these new age cars are more prone to "det" than others when the ign adv is mapped in.

Harvey, so as not to hijack BR's thread I will answer the VVT question on my project thread

Conrad
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Old 06 January 2004, 10:51 AM
  #35  
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Callum's is nothing like to potential - I had one mapping session with it which was complicated by header leaks, a VE hole we were trying to hunt down, and a constantly blowing off intercooler pipe - it probably needed about another full day's mapping to get right. There is far more potential in his present setup, and his new setup should be fantastic.
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Old 06 January 2004, 09:32 PM
  #36  
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Darrens's is running 8.5:1 compression, I believe that affects its ability to run advance influenced by cam timing. My STi5 also runs that compression, I can run .... well significantly more for the same comp ratio. Now Jonno's car will run absolutely silly timing at its 1.3/1.4 bar of held boost ... both completely different. The timing numbers are only numbers though and even a std engine has a plus/minus 0.2 tolerance to the comp ratio ... could be a big difference in advance capability.

bob
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Old 07 January 2004, 09:16 AM
  #37  
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I understand that Bob but what is the causing factor between one cars abillity to run silly timing against another one that can't? I suppose alot depends on the intercoolers efficiency / compressor efficiency and the resultant charge temperature? Clearly your STi9 seems to be very efficient at the moment.

Conrad
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Old 07 January 2004, 10:28 PM
  #38  
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No one thing Conrad, its mainly about combining the right things together, piston design helps (squish) however mine are same as darrens however I use bigger bore headers than him, STi5 is currently "mapped down" to straight Optimax so is "only" doing mid 400's as I was going to do a BP Ultimate v Optimax comparison (although I think I know the answer) and its still running silly timing even at that, I only had to knock two degrees off it. Bear in mind that my turbo/STi5 as setup was doing 398 bhp at 1 bar (ish) boost on PE rollers with 420 odd at 1.4 bar boost.

Given a state of mod then its very much about finding the right combination of boost, fueling and timing to make any one particular setup work with a given compression ratio.

The STi9 is v good, runs high timing with the boost and is very tolerant, the VE of the setup is so much better, I do think even the std exhaust is pretty damn good cats or no cats. Still has its "sensitive" spots though. Its set fair to be very tunable, I do think Subaru have got something right this time.

Things are progressing at the exhaust end, waiting on flanges to be machined at the last report, was offered a slip jointed varient however nice square flanges are the better option imho.

cheers

bob
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Old 11 January 2004, 01:03 PM
  #39  
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Bob- YHM regarding webspace!
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Old 12 January 2004, 10:32 PM
  #40  
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Cheers muchly Jon, I'll shout if I need help.

Ok the latest, new exhaust is designed, tooling in hand for the downpipe flange and "bell mouth" form, it will have a relatively "large" centre resonator to keep noise "sort of" under control and a relatively small backbox to gain smoothest pipe route front to back, tail pipe is going to be round, four inch with an internal cone down to 75mm to match the rest of the system and a "light" slash cut.

Thats the good news, "bad" (not really) news is that the engineer doing the work is away for three days this week on a first aid course so I won't get my hands on the finished article till end next week, (would have been this Friday).

I'm away in the States for a week then so won't be able to swap over til first week Feb (although being away ....)

Then mapping and testing, meantime the production jigs etc will be in manufacture pending feedback.

thats about it so far

bob
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Old 13 January 2004, 10:09 AM
  #41  
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Excellent

Have you converted the exhaust to UK sections or kept the Jap sections? I seem to remember the HKS and Blitz exhausts wouldn't fit the MY01's onwards without a link pipe or something along those lines.

Nathan..
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Old 14 January 2004, 05:02 PM
  #42  
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bob do the jdm sti just have 1 cat at the front and a resonator in the centre for sound? thats it? is it worth taking out the centre section for a straight through pipe? A friend who owns an exhaust manufacturing firm is going to have a look at mine and make me the parts i need, so a few suggestions from you would be appreciated before i pop down for the remap. I think i will leave in the front cat for now, see where we get to, and replace the centre and tailpipe, then if i decat later ill take another trip down to see you

thanks
Jason
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Old 14 January 2004, 05:42 PM
  #43  
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The centre has a resonator and no cat, the difference comes from decatting ie changing the downpipe, just changing the rest really only changes the sound, retaining the std centre/back is again "restrictive" being approx 2.5" system as opposed to 3" to get lesser resistance.

bob

[Edited by Bob Rawle - 1/14/2004 5:43:13 PM]
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Old 15 January 2004, 01:08 AM
  #44  
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so is it possible to upgrade to a larger bore if you replace the centre and rear section? or you have to start right from the downpipe taking out and replacing the full system? what are my best options?

sorry if the quetions sound dumb, i understand you cant connect a 2.5" bore to a 3 or 4" bore but, can you increase the bore as you go along and is it worthwhile? if i can get someone to custom make one?

thanks
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Old 24 January 2004, 07:22 PM
  #45  
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I visited Mr Rawle today to have my JDM '03 STI remapped. Even after only a few hundred miles, I can vouch for the effectiveness of his approach to tuning this car.
Following its initial remapping for UK fuel (by another mapper) the engine demonstrated a pretty patchy throttle response: a noticeable dip at 4k rpm and a top end that did not really match the midrange. Driving on motorways was not much fun as the pickup was rather inconsistent and 'wooly'.
I was advised by an ex-Subaru owner that the mapping process requires a sensitive right foot and quite a bit of courage and I can vouch for this. Holding a fixed boost level and negotiating Saturday morning traffic, when the boost gauge is not in line-of-sight was more challenging that I thought it would be (good fun, though!). Hats off to Bob for not batting an eyelid!
My drive home was a revelation: bags of oomph everywhere and a very crisp throttle response. I am running Optimax with no octane booster and I would guesstimate a 'full fat' 300+ bhp. Regardless of the actual peak output, it's the sheer drivability that most impresses. I only hope I can manage to maintain my current zero licence points status!
As an aside, I saw the new Janspeed exhaust for this model and despite only being made from mild steel (as its a prototype) it looks and sounds much better than the standard pipe. I look forward to seeing how it performs...

[Edited by MrFlibble - 1/25/2004 4:37:07 PM]

[Edited by MrFlibble - 1/25/2004 10:46:57 PM]
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Old 24 January 2004, 11:08 PM
  #46  
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Enjoyed the session Julian, for a while it was nice to see "twins" on the drive.

Well as mentioned I have the car back and it has the exhaust prototype, full system of downpipe, mid and back in three parts, four inch round t-pipe with slash cut, not had time to do any mapping, drove back from salisbury yesterday, b4 it was mapped to a tight 1.5 bar mid range ... woops 2 bar anyone !!! Its very eager to spool now as you would expect, noise ... well at the moment its not fair to comment as it sounds great, after a couple week driving I can be more realistic, i think its fine, very distinctive. Downpipe fit is v good, heatshield goes on without modification, twin lambda positions at the lower end in addition to the turbo end, one for sensor and one for mapping (of course).

Need to sort the induction, panel filters first then induction kit, then mapping, estimate about three weeks. Car then back as the sytem will be used to confirm the jigging for the production version. So I will be mapping this prototype on the car still with the VF37 then changing to the VF36 when the production system goes on.

One thing is certain the turbo spool IS significantly quicker boost response maps have to be modded to contain it and that will slow it a bit.

Will be away for a week so not looking at the thread, bear with me till I get back with any questions.

bob
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Old 03 February 2004, 11:30 PM
  #47  
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Quick update, I have now driven approx 400 miles with the exhaust, still have the oem panel in at this time, first impressions .. overboost was real, 2 bar if not careful, that from a very stable 1.5 peak prior to, had to reduce the solenoid duty by 40% at low revs to get in control, however now its incredibly quick to spool, hitting the surge line very easily, holds better in 4th/5th but still tails boost above 6500, actuator is too weak to hold wastegate shut but that mods ready to go on. Boost achieves 1.5 peak in all gears except first which just gets to 1.4, thats using ingear compensation to match levels.

Fueling is leaner by approx 0.05 lambda (thats a lot), no sign of anything on knocklink or in det cans so timing will be advanced, starting is also much chirpier as well, unexpected plus.

Across the ground the car is very much more responsive now, did a half lap of Brunters when I was up there mapping on Sunday and its really clean high up. Tail can easily be flipped out if desired in any gear up to and including 4th (DCCDA in manual and open).

So I am just waiting on a STi panel to go in, fueling check (should be spot on) and adjust timing, then I'll do some Deltadash dyno runs and post results for comparison.

This is the prototype exhaust, initially noise was "ok" but slightly louder around 3k, after 400 miles its carboned up and so has quietened down to a nice level for me.

BTW, not in my car but for the first time ever was told "too loud" at Brunters on Sunday, Stan you are a bandit !!! Resorted to power runs one way only along the main drag, that was acceptable.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Rawle; 03 February 2004 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 04 February 2004, 08:24 PM
  #48  
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Bob

All sounds good.

How much is the wastegate actuator mod going to be?

Nathan..
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Old 10 February 2004, 11:12 PM
  #49  
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More feedback, on Friday evening I installed a Sti panel filter, not had a chance to test too much but first impressions are v reassuring, better part throttle response and noticeable extra pull above 6k, so much so that I am going to fit the uprated actuator to the VF37 turbo. Then when I change to the VF36 I will have a straight turbo to turbo comparison. Boost response has again improved, peak of 1.55 now instead of 1.5. The actuator should allow me to hold my target boost to the red line.
For the 29th I hope to have the production version of the exhaust on the car, if not i will use the prototype.

So it seems that once the exhaust is changed the main restriction is the induction, the actuator will test the turbo's capability and the 29th rr day at prosport will put some perspective on it, I will also try and get a run at PE for comparison.

bob
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Old 13 February 2004, 11:39 PM
  #51  
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Right, couldn't resist and installed the adjustable actuator tonight ... serious remapping required, managed to get it to a state where it IS holding 1.4 bar to above 6 k and as mapped to redline, methinks a Sunday morning tank of fuel WILL be required to get this right. Trouble is that I get a bar of boost in 4th at 2000 rpm and 16% throttle, seriously over the surge line at that, mapping will sort it though.

bob
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Old 15 February 2004, 07:27 PM
  #52  
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So, that wasn't very easy, spent nearly 5 hours and a full tank, the boost went mad mid range, if I set it up to achieve 1.4 held to above 7k in 4th it overboosted like crazy so a compromise has been reached, boost control pipework had to be "adjusted" a bit to get the end result but it will now hold 1.3/1.35 in the higher reaches and still stay in control in the mid range, boost IS spooling very much faster, 1 bar circa 2500/2600 rpm foot on the floor from 1800 rpm in 4th. 5th and 6th were "interesting" for a while but judicial use of the in gear wastegate compensation fixed it.

I think this is the limit of std turbo and injectors, even with a panel filter. I have maxed the injectors, engine load is hitting 6.45, mass air flow is hitting 290 gm/sec, enough head room still but not plenty.

Its VERY quick over the ground now, did a DD Road Dyno plot and compared to the run I did just after the PE visit in Dec. Then, I adjusted the car weight to match the DD graph to the rolling road run and its now 1.3 seconds FASTER between 40 and 90, I will do some more runs to cross check over the next week or two. The peak graph differences are 30 bhp and 40 ft lbs. Don't know how accurate DD is .. JB you may be able to comment as you have used that feature more than anyone I think. Seems to have pulled up 60 ft lb in the 3000 rpm area as well, thats due to boost coming on so soon.

As I say, can't vouch for the numbers as I am not sure how accurate DD is considered to be, used 1440 kg for the weight, car, full tank and me.

I have a few more experiments to do with different actuator settings. Bear in mind this is the sleeve bearing turbo on the car NOT the ball race and so spool is slower.

As a reminder of its current spec.

MY03 JDM Sti GL (STi9)
Std turbo
Std intercooler
Std fuel pump
Std fuel pressure regulator
Std injectors
Forge dump valve
Heat grade 8 plugs
Uprated and adjustable turbo actuator
STi panel filter in std airbox
Janspeed full 3" exhaust (prototype)
Remapped factory ecu

Fuel used is Optimax with NF added.

cheers

bob
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Old 15 February 2004, 08:08 PM
  #53  
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Engine load = 6.45

At only 1.4 bar of boost??? (don't you mean 5.45?)

Mark.
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Old 15 February 2004, 08:22 PM
  #54  
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Bob
I have been watching you thread with some interest and have found it most informative. I have a Fujitsbo turbo back exhaust on its way to me but I was wondering what costs would be involved in getting my sti9gl to the same sort of spec as yours am am keen for more boost and quicker spooling. What sort of figures (power and tourqe) would you think your producing now?. Do you think bigger injectors, induction kit would make much difference if any? Also do you think there is a need for a BOV?
TIA
Jamie
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Old 15 February 2004, 08:59 PM
  #55  
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No Mark ... 6.45 IS correct, had to adjust the map axis scaling a touch (was set to 6.0 and was hitting 5.8)which added time to the session. Also forgot to mention, adjusted the open closed loop settings so that it stays closed loop a touch further up the load axis and that should mean better economy in the course of normal driving, seems to work well, no hanging on, goes open loop quickly from about 0.1 bar. Also rescaled the front lambda map so that what you see is truly what you have in terms of afr, as set from the factory it reads a long way out as soon as you move away from stoich, mine now matches my Motec wideband all the way to 0.76 lambda. Also set it to run just off stoich which makes it even smoother on cruise.

Problemchild the figures will depend on the rolling road used, I will be running it on both Prosport and PE rollers which will benchmark it, according to Deltadash its doing 285 wheel bhp and 298 wheel torque as peaks. How that correlates to reality I would not like to say. Thats on heavy smoothing run in 4th gear. If you add the gains to the curve at the start of this thread it will give some idea but I have an open mind until its been back to PE. I would also take it to G Force as well if that helps anyone.

cheers

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Old 15 February 2004, 09:20 PM
  #56  
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Bob,

My car has the Prodrive fuel pump would it also assist to have larger injectors?

All sounds excellent.

I expect your car would make mine look like a sport at the moment

Nathan..
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Old 15 February 2004, 10:07 PM
  #57  
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Nathan, no I don't think its worth changing unless you want to prepare for ongoing mods, I've maxed mine but I think I've pushed the turbo as far as it will go as well, you "may" need to change if you decided to fit an induction kit, I will be doing that but don't expect to get any greater gains from it.
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Old 15 February 2004, 10:23 PM
  #58  
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Bob, I've found DD incredibly consistent if the weights are carefully controlled, same bit of road used, same direction, same gear, approx same starting EGTs.

For comparision, a TD05 car which has very similar wheel power on Delta Dash today with heavy smoothing with UK 3rd gear, which also has FMIC and headers did 341 BHP at Star today. (standard cars did about 5 BHP below book on these rollers today), so I think you would top 350 BHP at PE on current spec.

The torque figures from Delta Dash need rather less added to them to give rolling road flywheel torque figures I find, an excellent before-after guide.

I find the plots invaluable to home in on the best boost/fuelling/timing combination to use.

Prosport will be fun. What is so impressive is the almost standard spec on the car, it seems very "willing" Nice one.
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Old 16 February 2004, 03:37 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
..... Also rescaled the front lambda map so that what you see is truly what you have in terms of afr, as set from the factory it reads a long way out as soon as you move away from stoich, mine now matches my Motec wideband all the way to 0.76 lambda. Also set it to run just off stoich which makes it even smoother on cruise. .....

cheers

bob
Bob making the stock front lambda sensor match utpo to 0.76 lambda (11.17:1 AFR) is quite impressive. What type of wideband sensor r u using, the NTK UEGO or the Bosch LSU4 ?
Probably the stock sensor must be something similar to a LSU4.

Carlos H.
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Old 16 February 2004, 09:13 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Bob Rawle
you "may" need to change if you decided to fit an induction kit
Ooops APS CAIK already fitted

Better start saving for some bigger injectors then

Nathan..
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