princess

also sunilp, i have a new scooby sports backbox which im really happy with, so i really dont want to spend extra on a prodrive exhaust, coz its a waste of money.
to be honest, it seems people are happy with unichips fitted by powerstation for £600 or so, some are happy with link fitted by bob rawle, some say motec is best, and some say ppp.
which is the bloody quickest!! im more bloody confused now than i was before!

RichieC

The best advice I can impart is ask what it is you actually want. Most upgrades (ie LINK, Unichip and Superchips) will achieve a VERY similar result in terms of increased ooommph. However they may do this to varying degrees of safety for the engine. Its well documented the opinions of fitting a superchips type upgrade and many view the LINK as the safest as it offers pretty much the most accurate mapping of the car to ensure perfect fuelling, ignition and boost in every row of the map. The superchips method is really just to crank the boost up which will definately make the car feel faster.

The MoTec offers similar results, arguably no more powerful than say Unichip/LINK but again lots of entry points for the mapper of the car, it also allows add ons such as Launch Control (which gives you max boost whilst the car is not moving, makes for some impressive flames and quick getaways ) Anti-Lag is also offered which keeps boost between gear changes to ensure the car is right on boost when you come back on the gas.

What is best for you......no one can answer that but you. I personally saw it like this (please dont flame me anyone, Im not having a dig at anyones ECU):
Superchips - Pretty "crude" method of doing what I wanted (ie make the car quicker on the road) It clamps the boost and doesnt allow any adittional fuel or advance to be used.

PPP - Not suitable for my application. Expensive but retains warranty, must be a good thing on a new car.

LINK - Seemed more of a gain on the newer cars (like yours) than mine. Lots of money and would mean a LONG trip to get it mapped. Very adjustable, I was worried Id start to play with it have probs. You could just have one fitted and and not touch it. Also SOME probs with cold start and idle.

Unichip - Cheaper alternative and gives VERY similar results. Doesnt allow full boost mapping (dunno if youre bothered) but is very usable in the real world. No probs with cold start or idle as youre using the original JECS ECU. As Ive said loads, Im chuffed to bits with it, the car is awesome. Its the fit and forget solution.

MoTec - Very tunable in line with LINK. And those goodies......Id need a new clutch due to overuse of Launch, and no doubt need an engine rebuild and new turbo due to overuse of Anti-Lag Ive driven cars with ALS before and Im convinced I couldnt help myself

Hope this helps, but do be aware there are other ECUs out there, these are the most common in the Scooby world.

Regards, let us know what you opt for.

Rich

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

The point that is trying to be made is, do you want to invalidate your warranty or not???
The fact is, with the prodrive pack you wont, and with any other chip you will, also it will affect your resale value as the warranty was invalidated at an early age and how many people will buy a car if the warranty was invalidated by subaru??? not many i bet!!
Pro's and cons, prodrive are proven tuners for subaru and the most secure route to take, also will a dealer take a car in for resale if the warranty has been invalidated??? remember they have to sell the car with a warranty!! 600 quid could cost you alot more in the long run if your not careful!!!

Tony

princess

richie c, i get what your saying. can the unichip be removed if required? can the dealer tell its been in there, and is it a problem putting it back, or do u have to go through the whole remapping business. as i understand it, the people in cheltenham(?) are good at this( powerengineering?)
to be honest i wish i could buy the chip from prodrive without having to have the backbox. it may shave a few quid off the price, and i like my scoobysports one.
tony i appreciate your point, ill have to find out if it totally invalidates the warranty, or just the engine bit.
i was strongly attracted to the link chip, but whats this about starting problems? i just want to leave ********* for dust and not **** my car!
does any one know approximate 0-60 times for the various chips? say on a car with only a scoobysports backbox and itg filter. i know a lot of it is down to skill, weather etc, but on a level playing field, is the ppp that good?
i aint trying to be a pain, im just a bit undecided, and tony made some good points about resale etc. so if i do go for another chip, itd better be good if i have to kiss the warranty goodbye.
cheers for the help so far!

RichieC

Yes the Unichip can be removed and fitted to another car (not necessarily a Scoob) but as far as I know its spliced into the harness and as such will be obvious.

Not meaning to sound cheeky but youre asking some impossible questions......0-60 times, not a chance it depends on what other mods are fitted ie exhaust and breathing. It also depends on fuel used and a million other things.

Sorry to sound negative but its make youre mind up time!

Rich

PS the LINK is not a "chip" its a replacement ECU. It wont "****" youre car at all but there are a few snags with cold start and idle control. These can be ironed out np but just be aware of them.

DJB

Rich

Where did you get your Unichip fitted?
Was it locally or at Powerstation?

I've already decided that if I do modify my car, I'll get the Unichip and I'm obviously keen to find somewhere close to home.

D.

spudgun

anywhere in essex ? by the way, im the one whos been asking the pain in the **** questions about chipping, princess is my girlfriend who has the superchipped car. u have a lot of faith in the unichip richie, and ive read nothing bad. is there anything else u have to get fitted to the car to keep things safe, like boost guages or whatever?:confused

Gary Foster

Why don't we all use plug in chip replacements ? surely it's just an e2prom or summat that holds the mapping data ?

Whats wrong with just using the std engine management firmware / processor with a different map ?

Seems to be a bit of a waste spending all the cash on a full blown Engine Management System (I assume this is a funky name for an ickle micro with some I/O) when there's already a perfectly good one in the car anyway ?

Is this not what Prodrive do ? why no one else ?

Gary
Ps I am fick and don't know what I'm talking about, no offence to anyone

DJB

I don't think that you can re-program the native ECU. I presume that the manufacturers have made the chip like this deliberately to prevent us BHP freaks from tinkering with it, then blowing up engines and then claiming on the warranty.

D.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I have absolutely no idea why RichieC repeatedly posts about non-existent issues with the Link.

Princess - the Unichip, Link and Motec are very, very different products and will give you very different results meeting very different goals.

They are not, as posted above, merely different (and differently priced) means to achieve the same result - they achieve very DIFFERENT results.

You want real advice - then speak to individuals who are experienced with these products - talk to Rich and Dirk at Powerstation about their solutions, continue to talk to BRD about their products then make up your mind.

Criteria may be

ease of use (start and idle which the Link does absolutely fine by the way),

absolute power and acceleration,

driveability on the road (i.e. turbo lag and midrange torque, and the ability to tailor these),

refinement (i.e. no snatching or flatspots)

longevity (safety of engine and ancilliaries)

future proofing (product still be upgraded and developed)

modification proofing (can the 'chip' optimise your mods, now and in the future)

Ask these questions of Unichip, Superchip, Motec, Link, Prodrive, Jecs customers and tuners and only then decide which of the questions are important for you and which solution gives you the best answers.

Unlike Mr C, it is not 'make your mind up time' it is get the right information to make an informed decision.

Rant over.

R

spudgun

right on, rannoch!

RichieC

Firstly DJB
I have the utmost faith in my car and the way it was mapped. Ive praised Powerstation before for there service and I am over the moon with my car now. If youre thinking about one, do it, you wont regret it.

Rannoch

I have read youre posts before and always regarded you as a very informative member, you seem to know a hell of a lot about the LINK, however I dont know who you think youre talking to but I dont appreciate comments like that.

I have said time after time the LINK is a more refined system and arguably safer as it allows more entry points and therefore more tweakability. I have also said it is more suitable for this guys car, ie MY99 > than an early one like mine.

When I said they all achieve similar results this is a quote from a company who offer all three. I seem to remember Bob Rawle telling me the Unichip will offer very similar results also, and it was he himself who reckoned Id be disapointed with a LINK on my car having driven a LINK equipped MY99. I agree wholeheartedy with Bob on this and was very thankful he didnt talk me into a system which wouldnt have been as suitable for mine as it is for the later models. He was also a touch wary of the [relatively] high miles on my car and I can concur here also, who wants a car going bang on them??
Thanks Bob, youre advice has been invaluable.

The LINK HAS had problems with cold start and idle control, I know of 2 examples at least. I also stated that these can easily be resolved I was merely making Princess aware of them. Im not even sure if theyre an issue now, but there were examples.

I stand by what I said, all of these methods Ive mentioned above will achieve very smilar results on the road ie the car will be quicker. How they do this, yes this will be different, Im not denying that. They will also perform similarly on a RR. My car produces 280 Bhp where an MY99 with LINK produces VERY similar figures. Granted it gives more torque but this is an asset of the MY99 engine anyway, I couldnt compete on torque with a newer car.

Its also true to say that a LINK can be adjusted over time to accomodate overboost etc encountered when the weather gets cold, the UniChip cannot. However with the addition of a Boost Controller it can be.

Im still not slagging one system off against another, but the original question is "Which is the best chip?". I am expressing my views as they stand and dont expect to be grilled over why this is and have things like "yes, but it cant do this" and "yes but the LINK does this"; I know it does but FOR ME THE UNICHIP WAS BETTER and if Princess fits into the category I do, ie wants a fit and forget system to make the car shift on the road and produce higher power and torque, I can recommend the UniChip. I suspect this is the case as he originally posted: and i dont want anything i have to fiddle with myself coz as sure as **** ill blow it up!
At a later date I may well look into boost control and the adjustment there of but for now Im content. I dont adjust it at all, it starts first time, idles like standard, is smoother to drive than it was, uses less petrol in the cruise and oh yeah goes like merry **** .

When I said its make youre mind up time, it wasnt meant to be blunt (I dont think it was taken to be by Princess, apologies if it was) but it is. These are the main ways of doing what you want to do, warranty issues, price and whats available with the system all come into it, and theres no one best unit IMHO.

I hope I cleared this up and apologise if anyone else has felt my comments have been unjustified, I look forward to your replies. But please, lets not take this thread up a blind alley and distance it from Princess's original post.

Thank you

Rich

PS Id agree with Rannoch, speak to Rich at Powerstation and Bob. Id say no one has done more to develop Scoooby ECUs in the UK than Bob.


PPS Princess/Spudgun, Id recommend you fit a Boost Gauge. Even on a standard car it can let you know of a snag before damage is done.

EvilBevel

RichieC, great reply (not meant as a dab at Rannoch).

Princess, I would like to echo the two recommendations Richie makes:

1. Both the guys from Powerstation and BRD (Bob) have given really great info. I've not talked to Bob yet (only read his stuff on this BBS and on 22B.com), but I did talk to Dirk (Powerstation), and my guess is you can not really go wrong with those two (again, not a dab at PE or any other tuner).

2. Fit a boost gauge, and if you have the money, an oil temp and an oil pressure meter as well. They may not warn you for all that could go wrong, but they'd cover a lot.

Personally, my major concern would not be 10 BHP plus or minus, but trust in the people that sell you the chip/do the tuning.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Theo

RichieC

Finally.......EvilBevel thats where Im coming from.

BTW Im running Oil Temp, Oil Pressure and an Air - Fuel Ratio Meter aswell as the boost gauge. A combination of these gauges makes a very good way a monitoring whats going on. The Oil P to let us know if were losing pressure and an impending engine failure is upon us. Oil Temp to let us know when its safe to push the car, and also warn if the oil is heating up too much and therefore thinning too much. AFR to let us know if the mixture is safe, not too lean or rich and the boost gauge for the above mentioned reasons. It will also indicate overboost that wouldnt otherwise be visible and ensure where reaching peak and the car is not hanging back.

Glad Im making sense

Regards

Richie

spudgun

richie c, i do get what youre trying to say. however, ive had my car 2 months, and ive already spent a bomb on it. i intend to keep it for some time ( i owned a few different cars last year alone including an s4, puma, a4)
therefore i am desperatley trying to find a definative answer for me, because i appreciate everyones circumstances are different. i must admit i did not expect the original question to provoke attacks on people etc, but i have appreciated the advice youve been kind enough to offer, in your own free time, and i do thank you.
tony burns did say about warrantys etc which struck a chord with me because theres no point spending a bomb on a brand new impreza if your giving the warranty away because of a chip. my main query regarding the prodrive pp is : is there a SIGNIFICANT improvement in performance over standard. people are happy with the link, and richie c in particular is chuffed with his unichip. but the point is , is the ppp so much better than these to spend £2k, when a unichip costs £600 ish, fitted by guys at powerstation who get great recommendations, alternatively the link fitted by bob rawle for£1200 ish, again hes had some great reviews.
to summarise, and im sorry to waffle on so long, i dont want to lose my warranty unless its REALLY worth it!
if ppp is the puppys nuts, then ill spend the extra and get it. if its only ok, then ill spend less and be as happy witha link or unichip, albeit with a buggered warranty!
thanks again fellas, and please, no more fighting, i thought were here to help each other

RobJenks

Well I have had the Link in my Rex for 4 months now and I can honestly say that has been 4 months of bloody hell!
The plonker who installed the Link had obtained the map inadvertently from Bob - although not of course suited to my engine /breathing configuration.
Bob has sent me alternative maps which have helped considerably and have resulted in an improvement in drivability - Performance was never a concern -Mapped @ 1.35 bar.
But cutting out during braking remains ,so does erratic tickover ,I mean between 2000rpm to 500 rpm ! and THAT bloody shudder when passing through 3000 rpm!
I have also had a dialogue with Dr Sam who has offered his advice.
In despair I have finally contacted Link in NZ and am auditioning another MAP - Unfortunately all inherent problems still remain.
The pleasure has gone from driving the car.

RichieC

If I was you, Id sod the warranty and go for a MoTec for the reasons outlined in previous posts. But if your'e bothered about the warranty, speak to Stef Reader, he was well happy with his PPP and he [and others have] been getting some good results.

Mine and your situations are entirely different so I can advise you no longer. This post has indeed invoked some feelings and I hope you can sift the "wheat from the chaff" and make youre own mind up. The truth is, there is no easy solution. If you had an older car Id say UniChip every time but if youre bothered about what IM will say, Id look at a PPP.

So Id speak to as many people as possible and make the right choice for you.

Best of luck in whatever you go for

Kindest Regards

Richie

sunilp

I personally wouldnt bother with the Motec on a UK car, besides, there arent that many people around in the Scooby community that know what they are REALLY doing with it anyhow and its relatively early in its development cycle tuning wise compared to Link for example. No doubt a better option on an STi

Spudgun, go testdrive a well run in PPP Scooby at your local dealer (or ask them to get the Prodrive demo car down for you) and see what you think. I was always very happy with the performance of mine and it gave me shed loads of extra torque and is beautifully smooth and sounds very nice too.

Failing that, if you dont like it or feel you want more then ask if you can have a butchers at a Linked or Unichipped UK car with the same MY as yours. There are a few around on the BBS. Beware though as there is only so much you can safely tune these cars for (UK less than Jap imports) and also i cant remember if you've got all your breathing and exhaust mods done already?, if not, its best to get those before going link/unichip and if your going to go PPP then you need not worry as they change the exhaust for you (you can do the downpipe later if desired)

BryanC

I'm no expert on alternative ECU's but I *have* test driven the Prodrive PPP Demo car. Personal opinion only - but I didn't think it gave that much over my existing MY99 to make it worth spending 2K on...
Which is ultimately why I went insane, ditched the MY99 and bought a P1 instead. There's MUCH more difference in torque now

Bit of an extreme solution though I'll grant you.

Sam Elassar

Rob
sheer up mate i am sure you will figure out what is happening to your car. it would have been easier to get bob down there for a holiday . i wish i could have helped


hi princess
i have got a linked MY99 car. does the acceleration pull me back in my seat ? yes it does , and for people who have seen it on track or driven it know how fast it is. IS this what you want ? how long are you keeping the car for ?
you would need to forget about the warranty which is a very important matter. you may end up having to uprate the clutch to handle the power ?

will it be faster than PPP of course it will be.

your budget will have to stretch a little to 2.5K. i know it is alot of money but if this is what you want. you would need to loose the cats ( DOWN PIPE AND MED SECTION ) your car will get louder!!? but sweet . you would need a bigger turbo ( a VF 23,24 ) you will get them for around £700 so it will cost around 1k for it fitted and the LINK ecu for another 1.1-1.2k. the advantage of the link is if you add/replace any mods you can change the map to suite. you don't have to go to your tuner all you do is to take a data log file on your lap top and send it to your tuner (Bob) if you have a problem and he can sort it out over email ( welcome to the 21 century .

i am very happy with my car including idling and cold starts. the only niggle i get is with the car semi warm i have to keep my foot very lightly on the throttle for couple of secs or other wise it stalls. but it is hardly a problem.

believe me NOTHING IS PERFECT INCLUDING THE UNICHIP. the only problem is that people with the unichip don't have all the Gizmos that you get with the link ie lambda ,knock link and the tuning module with its digital display.

sorry for ranting but if you won't a one of mod that will get you car quicker and safer go for the unichip. but if you are going to start to tinker around with your car and keep modifying it one bit at the time, the link would be your only option. if you worry about warranty go for PPP. but what ever you do don't go the superchip way!!!

motec is too expensive for a UK for the reasons the sunilp mentioned.

sam

RichieC

Absolutely agree Sam, youres has got so much torque its untrue and thats what makes it relly special. I see no reason why Princess should be any different as its a post 99 car.

Sam has summed it up there in a nutshell.

These problems that Rob mentions are what were referred to as non existant, they do exist and there is the proof. If youre not switched on to mapping a car and how boost, fuel and ignition work together to produce power in the map you can have problems. If you go to someone like Bob, Id say youll be fine.

Speak to Sam as he has done much work himself and knows the system inside out now and oh yes that VF23 is stonking!!

Regards

Richie

PS Rob, I hope you get the problems resolved soon M8, goodluck.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

There seems to be some confusion here regarding the inherent capabilities of the various chips under discussion.

Far from distracting from the original question - I believe that it is important that anyone who is deciding to 'chip' their car does so on a full and informed assessment. I stand by the range of criteria that I posted and, as you gentlemen have pointed out, missed the most important - which is that the chip is only as good or bad as the tuner who puts it in.

I have now been 'had' twice for apparently not answering the question - I am genuinely puzzled as to how trying to correct a couple of factual errors and trying to get the 'buyer' to ask the right sort of questions is any more distracting than posting lots of information about a car that is 4 models and seven years older than the car in question, for example.

A few points to think about.

All of the solutions discussion are as 'fit and forget' as each other, except for the Unichip. There can be issues with overboost requiring a different summer and winter set up - or some form of boost control added in.

However all of the solutions would benefit from Summer/Winter optimisation.

Link and Motec both have Inlet Air Temperature compensation and full boost control algorithms.

Also, contrary to posts above, the three solutions have different approaches to cold start/idle.

The Unichip is probably best as it uses the JECS idle algorithm.

The most recent Link chip will be a improvement over the current one (which I have been using for 12,000 miles). However the Link as standard does not have any 'inherent' cold start or idle difficulties. There may be examples where there has been a poor set-up but this goes back the chip being only as good as the installer. If there is an problem with the Link then, on some cars, hot start can be a problem. The most recent chip now matches all 150 increments of the stepper motor and so this should be an improvement in idle smoothness.

Motec has greater difficulties as there is not a start/idle control algorithm as standard. Motec requires various electronic modifications to the car and use of one of the peripheral I/O slots to provide for start and idle. There remain some very well set up Motec cars that still have problems with idle and stalling.

With regard to a specific question from Spudgun - the only solution that is truly reversable is the Link, although even that is not ideal.

It is preferable to fit a three port boost solenoid for the Link, however the standard JECS ECU will not run the car this in place AFAIK.

Both the Motec and Unichip require loom modifications, although there may a loom adapter for the Unichip for the later cars?

Finally, there has been a lot of focus on 'peak power' and 'rolling road' performance.

This is a bit like deciding on a car because its top speed. All of the tuners referred to here will tell you that peak performance in terms of bhp is only a very small part of the cars ability.

There are at least three high profile examples of cars that are certainly not the most powerful, but are regarded by many as the quickest and/or most driveable of their type - and they utilise different 'chips' to achieve these results - they are variously Motec, PPP and Link.

So, which is the best chip? It depends on a range of questions, some of which you have started to highlight, such as is it reversible? is it quick 0-60? Think about the other possible questions too, like how much is it? Who can tune it for me? Are they close by?

Added as an afterthought - if you do decide to go down this path, I fully endorse the advice given above that you should get a number of guages fitted to your car, Lamda (air fuel) guage, knock sensor warning and a boost guage at a minimum.

Also, oil temp and pressure and exhaust gas temperature would be icing on the cake, but not essential. With a Link or Motec these is almost a prerequisite as the warning systems of the OEM ECU will be removed.

On this basis, you will find that the marginal differences of cost of the various solutions is very much closer.

So, overall a good quality chip solution is going to be in excess of four figures and so the peace of mind of a Prodrive Performance Pack and a the extra driveability on the the road could be very attractive.

Good luck,

R



[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 19 December 2000).]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

In the interests if accuracy, and in response to one of Princess's questions, I have checked the use of the OEM JECS ECU with the three port solenoid with two respected sources.

Both confirm that the JECS can be used with a three port solenoid, and in fact some IM dealers will fit these to MY99/00 cars to improve boost control.

This would make the Link the only truly reversible solution of the three main, non-IM/Prodrive solutions suggested here. This is a very useful advantage at MOT time, or any other time when having the standard ECU in the car might be useful

You also may want to look at this post to judge whether peak power is the main criteria for selecting the 'best chip'

spudgun

rannoch, cheers for more advice. my girlfriend is removing the superchip in the new year, and plans to have a unichip fitted by powerstation in the new year( thank god!)
as for me, i still get the feeling that the link is slightly experimental, even with the expert mapping by bob rawle. i looked at the post u suggested( thanks again) and although the fella seems happy, there seem to be bugbears remaining, as others have also stated before.
as far as motec is concerened, id rather spend £2000 on ppp, and keep my warranty( as well as my clutch and turbo!)
i will wait to see how 'princess' gets on with her unichip, but i suspect i may well opt for ppp, even though my dealer thinks its not worth it.
ive tried searching for articles on this, but as always, opinion is divided!
can i keep my ss backbox when prodrive replace bits and bobs, for example.
to be honest, this is a harder decision to make than i originally anticipated, because EVERYONE has put forward very good arguments for their particular preferences.
i think it was tony burns or sunil who suggested asking for a test drive in a ppp demonstrator, so ill be contacting my dealer about this shortly.
it would be interesting to hear from ppp owners if THEY think £2000 was worth it. what differences in driving they noticed, is there a lot more oomph( which at the end of the day is what we all want really) , and was there any reliability problems ( although i would be suprised!). also, have they had link etc in the past and now have ppp, and how they compare.
thanks for taking time to write a very helpful reply rannoch, and everyone else who has so far too.
i also hope these posts help everyone else thinking of 'chipping' their car.

MorayMackenzie

StuartC,

Launch control does not give "max boost whilst the car is not moving". Anti Lag is designed to hold the turbo speed up whilst on a trailing throttle, over long fast bends, for instance.

Rannoch,

Once you've set the cold start parameters up idles not really a problem. I seem to recall that better idle control is available if you don't have anti-lag and vice-versa...

You already sorted the three port solenoid issue.

Cheers guys.

Moray

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Moray,

so, it is like the Link then - once it is set up correctly it is fine? Although I understand that you do need modify the ISC circuit to make it work? Is this correct?

Spudgun,

It is disappointing that after what must be hundreds of thousands of Linked Subaru miles (there are certainly more Link miles than Unichip miles for example), a few uninformed posts can lead you to think that the Link is experimental - however if you are uncomfortable with taking such a step you are correct in not doing so.

If you want warrantable peace of mind then perhaps PPP is the way forward.

If you do decide to take the next step, then for a newer car, I beleive as Moray posted right at the beginning, that Link or Motec are the best solutions. Also, in the New Year I understand that some additional 'Scooby' solutions such as Autronic will also come onto the scene. This is a fully mappable solution similar to the Link/Motec.

Good Luck and Merry Christmas.

R

[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 20 December 2000).]

RichieC

I give up, Ive said all I can.......

Good luck with the Unichip Spudgun hope Princess is as impressed as I am

R

[This message has been edited by RichieC (edited 20 December 2000).]

Spooky Mulder

...ah, the cost of living in a pluralist society. Don't worry, the truth is out there.

Fox

Andy Mid.

so spudgun......

what option did you go for in the end and are you happy with it ?

I'm just starting to look into doing this sort of mod to my Euro import MY99. There's lots to learn before I make a decision and this thread was well worth a read (all 15 mins of it )

Andy.

spudgun

well, interesting question! i too have learnt a lot even since this thread was started. if i had a car with no warranty, i'd definately go unichip.
however, i'll probably go ppp in the summer, but before i do, im getting her fully decatted, which gives noticeable gains. i had some unofficial free advice from a uk dealer. he said that decatting will not screw the engine in the slightest, and it's a damn site cheaper than ppp, which he really doesnt rate, he actually said its not a noticeable gain, especially for 2k!
however, if im still not satisfied after decatting, i will get ppp AND decat!
i cant do much more than that, ha ha!