greasemonkey

Actually, it's a slightly grey area, but by and large, he's right.

There's no specific change point. The AE802 ECU is not exclusive to the MY2000 cars, some MY99's also came with them. Also, if you happened to break the 800/801 ECU in your MY99 car, Subaru dealers would no doubt supply you with an 802 as a spare part, and wouldn't require you to inform your insurance company of the change. Manufacturers often introduce subtle revisions to their product ranges. If you broke a wiper arm, and Subaru supplied you with an updated design spare part, you wouldn't phone your insurance company about your "modified" windscreen wipers, would you? By the same token it can clearly be stated that the AE80x ECU's are freely interchangeable, and all satisfy the term "standard ECU".

This is exactly the way the conversation with my insurer went when I questioned them on this issue. Is the power output altered? No. The headline power and torque figures of the '99 car are identical to the 2000. If Norwich Union don't get this, then change to an insurer that does, simple. If you do switch companies you might also end up dealing with people whose first language isn't Hindi...

greasemonkey

That isn't quite correct James. An experienced technician who works on standard Imprezas day in day out would spot the difference with this amount of power straight away. He wouldn't necessarily know how it's been done (although he'd be able to make a pretty good guess) but the difference in boost and timing would certainly be discernable.

scoobyfella

Greasemonkey,

I thought i would be treading on dangerous ground with that comment. What i meant in a way was that even with 280 bhp if an assesor looked at the e.c.u they would not be able to tell visibly that it had been altered, even so i may be wrong again.

James.

greasemonkey

Whether it had been altered physically is a slightly moot point. Subaru UK are well aware nowadays of the means by which ECU's can be reflashed without any physical interference, and you can bet your bottom dollar that insurance assessors will be equally clued-up.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Greasmonkey,

Why would the assesor be looking at the ECU - because more likely than not, you've crashed the car. If the car is crashed then he probably won't be driving it, if he can't drive it how we he tell if its got more power? QED.

F

babber

This thread is getting right out of hand!!!! Fair to many drama queens

The select monitor and delta dash will report what ECU type is fitted..... I've seen it with my own eyes, and I know that delta dash will show you, as I got it Struggling to understand how anyone could tell that an ECU has been reflashed physically ???

I think you'll find that both ECU types AE801 / AE802 use the same target boost levels.

I have an AE802 ECU in my car, following removal of the PPP ECU. The ECU reports itself now as a AE801. I have the same boost levels as the PPP ECU, so can someone please expalin how the hell anyone could tell my ECU has been reflashed ???

When my car goes to the dealers, they comment on the smoothness and lack of knock. The mechanics also said it goes like **** off a shovel, but in fairness said that some Imprezas are quick and some are slow!!!!

Take a chill pill!!! Phill

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Seems to me that if insurance companies know about re-flashing ECUs (which they obviously do!) If you come to them for a £10k - £20k or greater claim it would be very cost effective for them even to get the ECU maps checked. If they can void your insurance legaly they save save themselves money - unfortunately they are only there to make money not to act as a charity!

I remember when I had a motorbike stolen from private property. It was recovered but to claim for the damage I had to take it to an insurance assesors engineer who checked everything including the tyre tread depth - that shook me a bit It looks like they will use any means to avoid payment if possible!

Mick

Chaddy

Ha Ha !
This has stirred up a bit of a Hornets nest hasn't it? I'm glad to see that other people have had the sense to check with their Insurance companies before changing anything that could be deemed to be performance enhancing.I like your comment greasemonkey about Hindi, I think this was the main problem, as I didn't really expect to be told I wouldn't be covered, and that is why I have written to them..in England..to complain, and hopefully get it sorted.
My paranoia stems from an incident many years ago with a chipped Escort Turbo, which had a big accident,(undriveable, Floyd) and the first thing the Insurance companys engineer did was open up the ECU, and low and behold there was a Collins Performance chip, with the Logo, and even the tuning code written on it.THEY DIDN'T PAY OUT !
babber, did you say they upped your premium just because of a stainless exhaust..Holy Moses!

babber

My Insurance company knew as they previously insured the car, and it had already been declared.

Fair enough the comment about an external chip, that would be obvious to spot!!

Phill

greasemonkey

Not really. This is rapidly getting off-topic, but for sake of completeness...

Modifications that increase your car's power output are, and always have been notifiable to your insurance company, and failing to do so does, and always has, theoretically rendered your policy invalid. If you have your car EcuTeKed, fitted a manual boost controller or whatever, you have an onus to tell your insurance company about it.

Chaddy's experience with his Escort is an obvious one, but it just goes to show that if the insurance company is faced with a claim and is looking for a way to avoid paying out, they will go over the entire situation with a fine tooth comb. They may not do it yet, but with the increase in "non-invasive" methods of altering engine output, at some point the time will come when they do start examining ECU ROMs to make sure they're what they should be. Same can no doubt be said of people like International Motors who have an interest in cracking down on fraudulent warranty claims.

You're right Phil, but that wasn't the point I was making. As standard they do indeed employ the same boost targets. They don't after they've been TeKed though.

First time I took my old car down to the dealer for a bit of engine work, the senior technician spotted straight away (and without any prompting) that it wasn't standard, and guessed immediately what had been done to it. As it wasn't in for warranty work anyway I wasn't worried, but it just goes to show that they're not stupid, and furthermore that claims that nom-invasive ECU modifications are undetectable aren't quite correct.

Having done so in the past, I'm confident that there's no issue with an AE80x to AE80x ECU swap, and hope you get some sense out of your letter to NU.

Just hope you haven't made a rod for your own back by suggesting to them that the change in ECU will liberate more power, as officially speaking, it won't. At end of day you only have the claim of a third party (EcuTeK) that it does, and even then only in the case of the particular ECU they happened to test. Subaru's official figures for the MY99 and 00 cars show absolutely identical outputs, and that's the line you should adopt.

TBH I'm not sure it will be yet, as my comment was a reference to yesterday's news story about Norwich Union moving their callcentres to the subcontinent. The fact that they're about to do it tends to indicate that the person you spoke to was in fact in the UK, which means the problems you experienced are only likely to get worse in future!

[Edited by greasemonkey - 12/3/2003 12:41:45 PM]

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

So Chaddy, when your insurance company asks you if you've ever had an insurance claim void or have been refused insurance then I'm sure you've told them, right? Your Collins chipping experience will be a milstone around your neck forever now...

F

Mick

iTrader: (1)

GM I think the call centre has already moved!

See response to an e-mail I sent before 'the news broke':


Subj: Re: Norwich union phone lines
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 9:19:00 am GMT
From: "EAGLE, Lynsey" <EAGLEL@NORWICH-UNION.CO.UK>
To: **************@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Dear Mr Thomas,

I am writing in reponse to your recent email.

I am sorry that you experienced a breakdown of communication with our new
call centre. Unfortunately, any new call centre will experience teething
problems, and I hope that you accept my assurances that we are working very
hard to eliminate the problems that you have reported.

All of our Customer Services representatives undergo in-depth training
before they speak to our customers on the telephone, as a high level of
service is important to Norwich Union Direct. I am sorry that on this
occasion you were detained on the telephone for a longer than normal period,
whilst contacting Norwich Union Direct.

Thank you very much for taking the time to contact me with regards to this
matter: Whilst I regret that you have experienced a poor level of service,
it is necessary that we are made aware of such occurrences, to make
improvements for the future. We will be monitoring the work completed by all
of our staff, to ensure that we continue to provide the same high level of
service to our customers that we always have.

Once again, please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused to you
as a result of this matter. I hope that we will be able to restore your
faith in Norwich Union Direct in the near future.

Assuring you of our best attention at all times.

Yours sincerely


Lynsey Eagle
Customer Relations
Norwich Union Direct


************************************************** ********************
This email and any files sent with it are intended only for the named
recipient. If you are not the named recipient please telephone/email
the sender immediately. You should not disclose the content or
take/retain/distribute any copies.
************************************************** ********************



Norwich Union Insurance Limited
Registered Office 8 Surrey Street Norwich, NR1 3NG
Registered in England Number 99122
Member of the General Insurance Standards Council
Authorised and Regulated by the Financial Services Authority

For Further enquiries 01603 622200

-----Original Message-----
From: *************@aol.com [mailto:*************@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 6:28 PM
To: helpdesk@norwich-union.co.uk
Subject: Norwich union phone lines

It used to be very easy talking to NUD staff - polite knowledgeable and easy to converse with.

This year renewing a policy I had great difficulty understanding and being understood by the lady dealing with my policy. At one point I was transferred to a man who was far worse! - I gave up trying to get him to understand my question. When I phoned again there was someone who could only deal with straighforward tasks.

Have NU tried to save money by moving the call centre abroad? I dread phoning now and due to the small difference in premium will probably move to a slightly more expensive policy at renewal to make sure I can speak to someone who communicates in acceptable English.

Is there a direct UK number I can call to speak to someone with good English for queries?

Thanks

Mick

Chaddy

Floyd,
It won't bother me at all re Insurance, it was a mate that it happened to, but it sure put the frightners on me !

Chaddy

Well Guys,
Norwich Union have finally got back to me re the fitting of an AE 801 in place of the AE 802, and guess what..there Technical Dept in England have checked, and it is O.K.! They apologised profusely for there previous assertion that it wasn't O.K. but said there 'Technical Dept'in India didn't understand the question !!
Anyway, I am now in the market for an 801, anyone got one, and how much ? 'scooby fella', and 'chrome' I think, said they had one, can you get in touch again if you still have.

greasemonkey

Nice to see the NU have finally got their pants on the right way round. Maybe you should learn Hindi in preparation for the next time you have to speak to them?

Try searching on "AE801", it'll likely turn up a few potential candidates. Probably also worth pointing out that the AE800 is maybe even better, and still qualifies as a "standard ECU".

chrome

chaddy: yhm re 801 (thru Mick)

scoobyfella

You also have mail from me twice.

James.