mike_nunan

Greg,

The PE modification allows re-mapping (i.e., altering of the full range of ECU parameters) by adding a piggy-back board to the existing unit. They don't plug a different chip into the free "cocket" . You can't alter the parameters in the OE ECU presumably because they're held in read-only memory on the microcontroller chip or in a separate memory chip.

I haven't seen the modification myself, but as a computer software/hardware engineer I have seen many similar modifications. Usually they involve a bunch of patch wires that are soldered to the original board, and sometimes some track cutting. Essentially this makes it a one-way modification. Also, the mod is very specific to the exact circuit board revision, which is why P.E. have quite a bit of work to do before the Phase 2 upgrade hits the street.

So basically, it is a re-mapping *operation* achieved by the *method* of adding a piggy-back board. Would you consider this to be different from a "re-map" in the S.Asian/Asian sense?

-= mike =-

Bob Rawle

As far as I know ...The ecu's pre 99 have an external rom socket. David plugs into that with an extra board carrying his revised settings. There is no soldering and the upgrade is easily removed if required. The 99 ecu's do not have the external rom socket which is fundementaly the problem that has to be overcome. The software side is not, I believe the issue, its how to interface with the chip on the board.

See

mike_nunan

Sounds like I've got it wrong. Care to confirm, DP?

BPM

This is what I thought, this would be termed "piggyback upgrading" in the this instance because there is a reliance on a alternate chip to run data too and the need for the free socket on the ECU.
The reason why Subaru got away from this on the 99-00, Sti5 and Sti6 is for the simple fact that they had many problems in Australia, New Zealand and Asia with people not being competent in this upgrade.
The point is I can see tha market opening like it has back here to full EMS systems like LINK, Motech , Autotronic etc. The ECU is complex and requires complex engine management systems.
They do much more than a basic remap that only extracts a bit of HP but does not allow you to take advantage of lifters which is when you are searching for the last elusive HP.
We have a company in Australia called Chiptorque who are renowned chip gurus and they have not been able to crack the Sti 5 and 99 , so if David Power Engineering manages it, I will applaud him personally.

I feel it is too much time effort for a upgrade that is not scaleable down the track.
Fine if you are happy with 300-320HP but not cost effective.
My opinion and very open to criticism.

BPM

[This message has been edited by BPM (edited 24-08-1999).]

DYNT

South East Asia ... STI 3(GC8D) and WRX(GC8E) is running with microprocessor. Some tunning company in Japan have manage to programme the ECU without using piggyback system. They replace the Microprocessor insted. This apply to STI 5 too.

Year 96 and below..ECU have socket for replacing chip and is very easy to be done.

Year 97 and above are using Microprocessor on all STI and WRX. Maybe for faster data processing.

Bob Rawle

Ok DYNT, looking at the site I posted, it does seem to be up to MY96 only, Davids secret is still safe !!

Bob

BPM

DYNT,

Don't you feel that replacing the microprossesor is more of a "I have accomplished" mentality. If Motech could drop their prices why would we consider anything else?
I feel the benefits are limited unless you are happy with a limited power upgrade.
For most that would be sufficient so I can see David Power does have a market.
By the way I feel the Sti chip on standard WRX MY Series works very well, we have dyno charts on hand that show it is the most cost effective way to gain serious increases in power.

BPM

mike_nunan

Because changing the parameters for the existing ECU guarantees you won't have problems with missing features (aircon, choke and whatever else we haven't discovered yet) in the replacement unit?

BPM

Mike,

I agree.

BPM

R19KET

Mike,

The Possum doesn't effect the aircon, and cold start,etc',is all easily programmable.

At the end of the day both the PE system, and the Possum are VERY good,and the end results will be very simular.But the Possum is only suited to someone who has a better understanding, and is prepared to spend the time needed to map it correctly(it does take time).

We all know how well PE's Phase 1 works.It's already proved its self.I recommended it to someone on Sunday because A) he thought HKS was the be all, and end all, B) he wants to be able to turn the key and go.
The Phase 1, is a far better system than HKS,unless you want to spend a fortune, and have a car full of gizmo's.

PE,Possum,motech,etc', all have a place in the market.Different systems,suit different people.

Mark.

Bob Rawle

Totally agree with Mark, PE Phase 1 is excellent (mine produced 303 bhp / 275 ft lbs) and its safe !!
The Possum and other programable ecu's are also good (see Pauls Dyno site for my results so far) but are no job for the un-informed.

Greg, if an STi ecu produces the power and torque that it does with a blueprinted, tuned engine how will it do the same for a mass produced and non-tuned engine ? The STi is a balanced package for extra performance, the standard WRX as you call it (or UK spec car because they are virtually the same)is totally different. The differences in turbo and exhaust alone are significant.

Not a "flame" but a question.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 24-08-1999).]

Anders

There are at least 2 22B owners who went through Auto Sportif and had a Motec system fitted.

They are less than pleased that the airconditioning nolonger works and the intercooler water spray fails to operate as well!


I am completely and utterly delighted with my 22B Phase 1 conversion.

It is even working out to be more economical too!!!! :-)

I will be happy to advise any of the 22B owners through my database to go for the Power Engineering route.

Unless they are technically minded and want to go the marsupial route

I personally would not risk this!

It will be a pleasure to read serious reviews of Mr BPM's products as and when they become available on mass. As all this talk of flaming is a bit OTT as the SIDC membership seem to have been very patient and hardly got into their stride!

In the UK a loyal customer base is a vital marketing tool...........so good luck Grig

Bob Rawle

Taking Anders point about air-con and water sprays the Possum still allows both to work properly, you can even adjust the point at which the water spray turns on if you have the automatic setup.

Bob

DYNT

I have tried few ECU ..piggyback and replacing microprocessor ..... works well if they get it right(not all the time).

I know a guy who used LINK Management System in his Subaru and doing well in the Singapore Carpark Rally. Top 5 driver ...in Singapore.Difficult to set it up too.

As for myself ... I'm using MOTEC M48-Pro. More time taken to set it up....6 hours on the track. Does the job very well but it is expencive. I drive the car on the road only..sometime in the track.

I think PE ECU .. is a better way to go for Fast Road Car with standard engine. Unless U are doing heavy engine mods.

Anders

I spell it MOTEC.
Grig spells it MOTECH.

Which is correct?

I am bound to be wrong so don't be shy about putting me in my place!

BPM

In regards to the LINK for non Sti we have the module for that. In Australia and Asia we upgrade mainley non Sti so the results are better for standard Subarus.
The module for it works very well.

BPM

Bob Rawle

Just so we are clear on it the Link ecu is physically the same whichever model it is fitted to within a given model year and so is the software. If you have a Japanese WRX or STi it requires more setting changes to suit the car than the standard (uk spec) WRX

Bob

BPM

Just off the press, BPM have now 3 modules for the WRX , the 320HP turbo upgrade and 400HP and above.
There is still some fine tuning required but the modules are very close to the mark.Slight adjustments to have to be made to due to the fact there is a slight difference between all vehicles, even if they are the same model.
The Sti5 has also been given the thumbs up from LINK thanks to AVO and BPM's work in Australia.


BPM

[This message has been edited by BPM (edited 27-08-1999).]

Bob Rawle

So we have the ecu's with the different sets of parameters dependant on the application but what else needs to be done to achieve each level of upgrade Greg ? I assume that down pipes, matched/flowed heads, manifolds, uprated turbo's etc are all needed at some point or other to get the higher performance's.

Bob

BPM

Bob,

Yes you would match specificall for exhaust, headers etc although the turbo will be the main item that has to be taken into consideration. We have programmed the modules to suit our product range and to suit standard unmodified Subarus.

BPM

Bob Rawle

Ok, so you are talking about something in the order of say £3000 for the total upgrade I guess.

richie coulson

Bearing in mind I have an MY93 WRX (Jap Import not Aus spec), what sort of BHP, but more importantly Torque can I expect? Has anyone had the conversion on a MY93 WRX? What sort of boost do they run? (The car is standard aside from Magnex/CAT replacement)

Also am I right in thinking the PE is a piggyback type conversion and the Possum Link is a new ECU (Or have I got it all wrong!?). Ive just spent £490 + vat + labour on a new ECU so Ill be dead annoyed if I could have got it uprated for a smidge more!!

Cheers, Richie.

[This message has been edited by richie coulson (edited 30-08-1999).]

Mike Tuckwood

Richie......

You are going to be upset!

BPM

Bob,

Hardly the sort, we find that our modules get you 90-95% of the way there. The other additional bit of tuning is to have a perfect map which everyone wants. This is to help people get off on the right leg.
Add to this the LINK will soon have the "Data trapper" which is a recording of your car when you set it up, you drive for a 10 munute period, go back to the workshop load up the data trapper and it tells you where you run lean, etc.
It is dead easy to use.

BPM

Bob Rawle

OK, this sounds like the "serial link" which I use to datalog the car after adjustment for the same reason. You need a laptop computer to use this, it only tells you what the ecu is seeing though, a "hot" lambda will give false readings and you have to know when this happens. BTW Link say that as supplied the ecu gives approx plus 20 bhp. (for WRX, UK spec, car)
Against my 260ps STi standard its given me 48 bhp and 73 ft lbs torque so far but that took alot of adjustment. Car is standard apart from a Blitz cone and Legalis exhaust. Still has cat in downpipe.

With the right car I can see how you could get 320 bhp but not 400 unless other things are changed.

Now, you've talked alot about power, what torque is produced and where in the rev range. Please try and be as specific as possible.



[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 01-09-1999).]

BPM

Bob,

It is not the serial link it is a new component although you do require a laptop.
It makes tuning even easier.
I will keep everyone posted since it is about one month away.

Greg

BPM

Bob,

It is not the serial link it is a new component although you do require a laptop.
It makes tuning even easier.
I will keep everyone posted since it is about one month away.

Greg

ric

Sorry, but one question:
How could you run the Imprezas engine with such high boost level reliable? I think the UK-Impreza has a small turbo. This requires very high speet for the turbine crankshaft at high boost levels.
MRT (from Australia) wrote me (by email) that a remapped ECU could be dangerous for the small turbo. They advised me to fit a bigger turbo (the one from STI5). They say that the bigger turbocharger makes a lot more power at 1bar of boost than the small one at 1.3bar? The bigger turbo is about 1000£. You can fit it and the car runs with the standard ECU, no problem. +25-35bhp +25% torque.

BPM

Yes the current UK 99 and 00 models do in fact run the smallest turbos in the entire Subaru range, this has been a constant since 1993 where each year Subaru continues to meet emmision standards.

MRT Are correct that is why we offer 320HP, 400HP and 450HP Ball bearing turbo options, it is nice though to have the turbo mapped 100% hence the LINK system.

BPM

firefox

Hi there,

Running a large turbo has its advantages and disadvantages. Different turbos have different characteristics and "ratings". Using BHP to rate a turbo is a very crude and rough way of doing this.

People might think that fitting a large turbo will solve all problems, but the "larger" the turbo the larger the lag. This is why car manufacturers dont fit truck turbos to cars - you would put your foot down...wait 10 seconds.... then bang...you would be in ya back seat.

Alot of cars in Oz use larger turbos - but the cars are mainly used for 1/4 drags - where you always run with high revs, hence the turbo is always spinning. It would ruin a cars reponsiviness and drivability.

WRC teams use different turbos for different events. Its the internals of the turbo, (exhaust turbine and compressor wheeler) that govern the characteristics (aswell as machine housings and bearings).

The arena of turbo chargers is vast and never ending...I'm tired...slighty drunk..and need bed.. its its only 11pm..I'm sad!!

So a recap - Identify what you will be using the car for - track, drag, everyday use, etc.... Match the turbo to your requirement. Most people will find fitting an STI (VF 23 or 24) to their standard or WRX scoob will be enough... or maybe even going to the "400bhp" rated one. - Personally I would reckon the 450bhp one would be too lagging for the needs of UK people (in general).

cheers,

J.

ps - If you are going to fit an uprated turbo, to make the most of it I would recommend you looked at the air intake and exhaust systems - theres no point having a high flowing turbo if it cant flow!


[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 10-09-1999).]