The Fixer

Bob, interestingly you should mention ignition, I did see one graph of my car producing 372 rather than 362 which we ended up with but Chris said there was a small of det occurring and thus they retarded the ignition a bit and we ended up where we are now.
Car was on plain old Optimax.

Also, please see my comment above about the Forge Recirc valve being too small, is this not the case? Can I safely change the APS one to the forge without remapping?

Conrad

The Fixer

David, GEMS doesn't use MAF, its been removed and a 3 bar MAP sensor installed instead.

Can you give me more details on porting the standard headers please?


Conrad

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 9/27/2003 10:12:46 AM]

David_Wallis

it just involves removing headers and opening the ports out to the gasket line.. see projects for a thread on porting..

David

The Fixer

Cheers

R19KET

Conrad,

If Bob's right, and the APS D/V is leaking, fitting one that doesn't leak could cause overboost.

Mark.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

The forge recirc works on many high power scoobs to my knowledge.

Agree with David on the air filter, i will take a pic of mine later if you like, or look in Jap Performance if you have it.

The Fixer

Stephen, if you could mail it to me, It would be appreciated.

I plan to go out with Steve Simpson in the car when i return from working overseas (to fix the warm start issue), I could do with changing the dump valve and air filter arrangement before this event so Steve can adjust map to suit and prevent any mishaps.

Would like to do it one part at a time so we can see what the restriction is.

Cheers guys.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

No probs, i will do it later

Bob Rawle

The best Forge to use on your setup is the MY98 version, as to not flowing enough air it should only be there to take the edge off, set too low and you lose out on response. Should be set to hold about 1.2 bar pressure.

You will need to be careful if changing without map adjustment so your plan is a good one.

In porting the headers gas flow the trailing side of each joint but keep the leading side parallel, and don't increase the head ports in diameter.

edited to say the factory map sensor is actually a "2.85" bar item and ought to be more than adequate for your setup.

bob

[Edited by Bob Rawle - 9/27/2003 1:35:04 PM]

The Fixer

Bob, it is the MY98 version of the Forge Valve that I bought from you so it should be ok to swap it just before we go out mapping. Will need to change hoses as the APS one uses larger hoses.

Conrad

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Here ya go

The Fixer

Just looking at Gadget Daz's car in Japanese Performance, i notice he too has the forge recirc valve. He has the same samco induction hose but a different filter arrangement. Got to be worth trying each individual componant to see if the car remains the same or gets better.

I can only assume that if these two items don't resolve the issues then I'll have to look at up pipe and down pipe arrangements.

One thing I did forget to mention, i am still on the standard Subaru fuel pressure regulator, is this adequate?

The Fixer

Thanks Steven(apologies for spelling your name wrong for the last few weeks, just seen the spelling in JP mag ), I guess you don't have any ducts running cool air to the Filter (That I can see any way), I take it that it doesn't create a problem all that turbulent warm air. Coming over tommorow to see W & G in action hopefully!

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

No worries with name

I used to do, but when i had the car in bits just before Ten of the best i binned the ducting and ran out of time to replace. I do have some in the garage, but again i have run out of time.

I also have a sheet of very lightweight heat reflective material that i will be using to create a cold air box for the filter.

The filter only picks up hot air whilst stationery, so once moving doesnt make that much difference, but the box should help.

You should have an adapter plate that came with the APS FMIC kit that allows it to mount to the Dump Valve.

Hopefully gromitt will be running if the replacement ECU arrives, but Wallis wont be

Steven

The Fixer

Spoke with Mark earlier, its on its way M8, he was just leaving!.

I didn't fit the FMIC, G force did so not sure what it will look like, maybe the APS dump valve uses it as well???

Think i will ring Roger Clarke on Monday, get that hose that connects to my Samco Induction hose and mount my filter in there some where.

No Wallace? What's going on?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

RSVR,

what headers are Jonnos car and the demo car using - if they are uprated this could be the difference.

When I ported my standard headers it made a huge difference in terms of the fueling - so more to come there.

Changing to HKS/GruppeS/Ion whatever should free your power quite considerably.

Rannoch

The Fixer

Rannoch, G-Forces Demo Car definitely has HKS ones on and I believe that Johnos car does as well. Perhaps this is the part that's holding me back.....

How much extra % do these aftermarket headers actuall flow?

Anyone know?

steve rally

Just a few points from the mapper of both Conrad's and G-Force car.....

I think you need to look at the spec of both cars and analyse what is different.I won't go into this because I'm trying to remain independent!! - but from a mapping point of view, and taking on board Bob R's comments about "serious ignition mapping at the top end",the facts are this:
VVT map : identical from 5500 to 7000 RPM
Ignition map : Conrad +0.5 degree adv from 6000 to 7000 RPM.
Boost curves were virtually identical.
Lambda was mapped slightly leaner on Conrad to try to get more grunt - but not significantly - but the interesting value is the relative pulse widths:- the G-Force car is approx 10% higher (after equalisation for injector size) and both cars were running identical fuel pressures.This would indicate a greater air flow and hence the power difference.

Steve s

I've

The Fixer

Thanks for that Steve, did you get cut short at the bottom of the reply.....

Can you put that (your idea of the problem) into laymans terms for me.

Cheers

Conrad

Catch up with you when I return.

Bob Rawle

Steve, the two cars may run similar maps but they are clearly not "Volumetrically similar", ignition mapping will make the difference increasing or decreasing, depends on the car of course. You know, as you have seen this, that running identical maps on two different cars can end up with significant differences in performance dependant on the individual car. Its not all about boost but finding the optimim map set for the car.

There are clearly major differences other than the turbo, it's not the reason.

Like you, I am independant in this since, however I do have detailed knowledge of one of the cars mentioned. Its a totally stock engine but ... the ancilliary parts bolted on complement the engine and each other.

The MD321 is not a 450 bhp turbo, however it is a 400 bhp one and I think we have to agree on that.

cheers

bob

David MY99

a bitt offtopic but what is the max power you can expect from a vf35?
i'm currently running one @ 1.4 bar till 5500 and holds 1.15 @ 7k rpm. and i have 340 bhp from this. Is there much left for some improvement ?
i'm running this with waterspray on a sti8 TMIC and on standard collector.
i'm planning to go to a FMIC

The Fixer

Its all gone quiet....Update, I'm still stuck in Cameroon (working), car is away for an independant review (independant as in non APS franchise....lol) to try and find out which products are not complementing each other????? Back soon and we'll see what the results are...or not

Conrad

Mike Tuckwood

David, you're already at about the upper limit that Turbo will produce power wise. You may squeeze a little more out of it but it's going to be working bl00dy hard up there.

Mike

The Fixer

Update: Things have been changed....

Turbo replaced with another MD321

APS CAI removed, Roger Clarke Motorsport Intake added (Underbonnet)

APS Dump/Recirc Valve Removed - Forge MY98 BRD Recirc Unit installed

New SX Fuel Pressure Regulator Installed

New 650cc Injectors Installed - Should now need them if all working

Standard Fuel rails Causing 0.5 bar pressure drop from one bank of cylinders to the other. Parrallel MRT billet rails installed. (Thanks to Mike Tuckwood Scooby Mania who gave me his only set that were for his car)

Knock Link Fitted to help set-up

Defi's fitted to help set-up, EGT, Boost, Oil Temp.

Mapping next Tuesday, lets see how we get on, hopefully a big

Conrad

The Fixer

Mapping Tommorow Hopefully I'll get my car back soon, 7 weeks since I have seen it

Will it work or Won't it?

EMS

That is terrifying me! Did you measure it? Did you run completely standard rails or did you convert to parallel feed?

Mark.

Andy.F

Did it work or didn't it ?

Andy

The Fixer

EMS, yes I converted to parrallel lines, it would have been impossible to do the fuel map correctly with different fuel pressure at one bank to the other The manifold was standard and so were the fuel lines.

ANDY F. No it didn't, I'm completely at a loss, the car is actually worse if anything, to gain the 362 HP we have ended up with (same as last time) we are having to run slightly more boost than last time.

The turbo has a bigger exhaust housing now, different intake set-up (non APS CAI), forge recirc valve (instead of APS item), sx fuel reg, but still no joy

Its as though the cars limited to 362 HP no matter what you put on it! They tried loads of ignition, leaning it out more, advancing the AVCS back & forth.

Only other items I havent changed is the APS up pipe & down pipe!

When the car went on the rollers it was actually 30 HP down than last time They had to mess around for two hours to get it back to where it was.

Think I'll stick to my bloody Diesel Van.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Somebody has to ask the question - is this the limit of OE non-ported headers? Has anyone got over 370HP without touching the headers?

The Fixer

Not only that, 400 HP seems to be a limit even with headers????

There seems to be some restriction here on the new age cars???