ChrisB

On squats, is the idea to go down as low as you can?

Had my first go on the shiny new Smith's machine at the gym this morning (excellent piece of kit). Did 10 @ 30kgs just to see how the body movement goes, then 10 @ 70kg and finished with 10 @ 100kg.

super_si

100kg is a lot and i know full well you wouldnt do that on a free bar.

As i said to defiant use the free bar chris. He was doing 180 on the smith now hes settled at 120 on the free bar. its alot harder but you'll feel much more satisfied doing the free bar


Si

milo

i'll ditto that.. use the free bar.

smith machine squats force you to lift the bar in an unnatural plane of motion and basically give you two choices:

1. take an ordinary stance which the smith will make your knees goes past your toes as you squat, putting your knees in a compromising position.

2. put your feet further forward - but then you put your lower back in a compromising position.. not to mention the fact that you'll end up doing a glorified leg press and not a squat at all.

use the free bar and take a powerlifting stance

milo

generally yes. the lower you go, the more your glute and ham muscles come into play. it's important to work these hard, so going low is a good idea.

in any competition the requirement is to go parallel. this is because they have to pick a depth that is fair to all competitors regardless of height and limb length... it is NOT because it's better to only go to parallel.

i go a lot lower (basically as low as i can) as i want to make best use of the exercise and like to use the full range of motion.

take a wide stance too. not only will this help you go lower without compromising your form, but will also bring your hams in more.

ChrisB

Cheers guys

I remember reading a post by Tel saying you walk funny after squats. I can still feel my hamstrings and I haven't lifted a thing since Sunday morning!

milo

that will fade with time as your body adapts to the movement

sldl's are what REALLY kills your hams!

[Edited by milo - 9/30/2003 11:31:39 AM]

super_si

yeah lol dont know how youve manged to hit the hams chris hehehe.

Its the quads that squats kill

Si

Jza

Squats - the main course of any leg work out meal. The leg exstensions etc are the desserts

Do the squats, then i'd include

Romanian deadlifts
Hack squats or legpress (alternate as it works slightly diff) on machine
Dumbell lunges (look a bit Larry Greyson but v good)
Leg exstensions and lying leg curl (quad and ham - dont do one without the other or you'll create an imbalance that may cause knee probs) on machine
Some form of Calf raises.

In terms of the form of squats. You really need to go low - the old stuff about not going right down to save your knees was a myth. I go down to parallel. You see lots of guys stacking huge weights and then only bending 45degs. Big mistake. Just kidding themselves. You really need to use less weight (and not feel inadequate!!) and make sure you get right down. It brings you @rse and hams in to play a lot more.

Place bucket next to where you are. If your doing them right you'll want to puke!!!

Jza

CC

I've found the best way for me to squat is to not go as low as possible or to take a wide stance.

I go no lower than parallel and take a shoulder width or maybe slightly wider than shoulder width stance.

This lets me put more emphasis on my quads and the lateral portion of my thighs rather than my glutes and hams. I dont want a big a$$! lol

I do this so that I can get a good 'sweep' to my legs, a good shape so to speak. I could probably do more weight if i took a traditional powerlifting approach to squatting but i'm not a powerlifter, i'm a bodybuilder.

super_si

More then parralles doing knee damage i think are your really straining them.

My leg work outs

squats, 12,6,4,4,6,15
Front squats 5*5
weight step ups 14" plat form 40,30
calf raises 20,25,20,18
then SLDLS 4*10

then i ab work generally fooked for 3-5 days

milo

so can we take it that u don't work out your abs cos u dont wanna have a big gut, and u dont work out your chest cos u dont want big bitch ****?

your logic there seems flawed to me.. especially as you're a bodybuilder

milo

i'm calling myth on this one

in fact, it's probably more likely to have knee damage from stopping at parallel as you're forcing the knees to absorb the stress of stopping the weight midway through the movement.

when going all the way down (below parallel), when rising the knees get assistance from the hamstrings and the glutes in addition to the quads.

not to mention the fact that full (read as well below parallel) squats strengthen the knees, hips, lower back etc.

CC

milo, no my logic is just fine, and i carry around the results of my logic with me all the time .

Note i used the word EMPHASIS in my post.

By just going to parallel, i place the EMPHASIS of the movement on my quads n thighs, not on my glutes. Obviously my glutes will still get exercised, but not too the same extent by going to the floor.

And I do perform ab work, but not to the same extent as squats, as I dont want large abdominal muscles, plus having abs is largely determined by fat level.

Yes I do perform chest exercises, as these will primarily develop ure pecs, not 'bitch ****' as you put it. Bitch **** is gyno.

What you've got to remember is that we're all individuals, what works for one doesn't necessitate it works for another, and so no-one can say that something is 100% correct for someone else.

Out of interest as u seem knowledgable on the subject of training etc, what are your stats? have you competed?

milo

cc.. i was being deliberately flippant i'm well aware of the benefits of working out chest, totally concur about visible abs being down to diet and not training, and didn't for one moment seriously believe you'd ignore working out chest or whatever

tho to ignore (sorry in your case not fully work out) a body part.. any body part.. so it doesn't get too big, in my opinion, will end up ultimately making you look out of proportion. and this is a really bad thing for bodybuilders.

CC

ok forgive me for not getting the irony of the post lol!

no, i think i'm just trying to be selective about which bodyparts i develop, i dont wanna developed *** lol

i spose in that sense i'm not a true b.builder then cos i agree with u, all parts just be trained hard

...i spose i'm more of a cosmetic bbuilder , u wouldnt think so though looking at my belly

TelBoy

All the way down for squats.

Only benefit of partial squats is to powerlifters, and even then i think it's only useful as a means of getting "used" to heavy weights on the shoulders, so that competitively legal lifts don't seem so bad.

Full range squats never built me, or any other bloke for that matter, a big bum. Glutes aren't capable of that sort of development.

CC

Tel, so by doing parallel depth squats "no bloke" can build well developed legs?

So I assume you have well developed legs and i dont, correct?

TelBoy

Not saying that at all mate, but on a stage, if that's your bag, an expert judge could probably tell a guy who hadn't done full range squats, in that the muscles wouldn't be as "long" or well shaped as a guy who had.

On a personal basis though, i'd agree with previous comments about additional knee stress from stopping at parallel. That's obviously THE highest leveraged point of the squat movement, so i'm not sure i can see the benefit of continually testing your knee ligaments, if the fear of some glute development (which won't be noticeable anyway) from going all the way down, is the only reason for doing so.

CC

nah not interested in competing, not prepared to go the lengths involved as i've seen 1st hand what it requires.

well as i posted previously, bodybuilding is something where one solution does not fit all , thats one of the reasons it's so interesting to me.

i'll still carry on doing my parallel depth squats with a shoulder width stance, with knee straps when going heavy, as thats what has worked on my legs upto now and given them the shape that has attracted a fair few positive comments .

super_si

Its killing me having a week off

Jza

Studies have shown that going down all the way actually strengthens your knees - not - as was thought - damages them. Provided proper form

Bouncing at the bottom would be a VERY bad thing to do

Jza

rob.dren.1981

im a body builder /power lifter, (all on free bar , no wraps) i dead lift 340 kg, bench 260kg and squat 300kg, leg press 1000kg. creatine is rubbish it basically fills the cells with water giving a smooth appeareance , but obviously a fuller appeareance. if you wana get big eat clean and over 2.5grams of protein per pound of body weight and the same in carbs and keep off the testosterone effect dulling alcohol. cheers rob

GC8