mik

Nacro Mate,

You'll find few folks on here who aren't serious petrolheads, who'd love to run an M5, Vanquish, MaccF1 as a daily driver. Agreed

F3ck all wrong with petrol, but you have to be Stevie Wonder to flagrantly dismiss diesels as a genre. As we all know....all sweeping generalisations are total and utter 5hite

As Matt has stated - most of us have to compromise. Like you. Which is why you went for the Scoob in preference to a caterfield ~ performance wasn't your sole requirement.

We all have different priorities.

You want to compare cars with similar purchase prices, but reckon fuel costs (and presumably other running costs) are of no consequence.

I can't dissasociate the two.

Costs is costs, whether up front or ongoing......

Now.

Can you tell me your views on Politics & Religion?

furry cup

NACRO, the new Mycroft but without the insults. Yet.

Do you look at other people's posts and just see blah blah blah blah blah blah blah?

Or just mine (before you say it)

DARREN

Had an STi 2 modded for 3 years.
yes i had the cash to buy a new EVO 8 or a new STi but nah.

went for the 330d Sport Touring.

It will outrun a std UK impreza over 90 mph.
Build quality is second to none.
288 lbs/ft of Torque
40/50 mpg.
£700 full comp to insure.
18" alloys
255/35 18 sp9000 dunlops
full m tec suspension and bodykit.
leather,cruise,alpine ice,oh and can get 5 in comfortably with loads of room in the back.

Oh and you wont see me much in the garage either
Servicing ever 18000 miles and 550 miles on a full tank

A very satisfied Diesel Sport Driver.
Who is going to agree with me that torque counts for more than BHP

Darren


[Edited by DARREN - 8/18/2003 8:25:23 PM]

LG John

Rich, most VTS are faster than a 330d 0-100mph. They are 22.4 and 22.5s in the 'book' but the MKII saxo is usually about 20 dead in the real world. I also beat one in a race although it was close as ****!! My old man had a 330d and it was effortless compared to the way the saxo delivered the performance but it's also got nearly twice the engine capacity and a turbo!! I loved the 330d and it was a great car but when I got and modified the scooby I began to get a little taste for what performance really is - basically the scooby w@nks all over oil burners, the 330d included. The scooby generates similar kind of pull and seat pinage but it holds it for much much longer whereas the tdi's, etc need gearchanges and everytime you do so you 'feel' the power at the wheels being sapped through the gearing! To get an idea for what it feels like: nail a scooby off the line in 1st then shift to 3rd just before the red and then into 5th just before the red. Thats what diesels feel like to me, everytime you make a gearchange you feel you progress being dramatically reduced If they could be made to rev then they'd hump petrols all day long but for now they make the best cruisers money can buy IMHO

NACRO

No one is saying that diesels are cr*p- well not me anyway.

Just that petrol cars tend to slay their diesel counterparts in terms of performance. Fuel costs are actually a very small part of the cost of running a car. Irrelevant as well in assessing PERFORMANCE.

quote: "Do you look at other people's posts and just see blah blah blah blah blah blah blah?"

No- why? in fact that's a very cheap thing to say. All I've seen are people saying that their cars are cheap to run while offering a good turn of speed. That's great, however, I prefer performance cars and don't care about MPG. So I go the petrol route. I think you'll find someone other than me brought this up again and I'm perfectly entitled to put my opinion. Petrol cars are faster pound for pound than their diesel equiv- that's all I'm saying. If you want to save a few pennies on fuel then get a diesel by all means. I prefer to drive a petrol car with ultimately better performance.

Or perhaps diesel engines offer the best performance, that's why Ferrari use them, that's why Porsche use them or perhpas they don't. Coming soon the TD Impreza- well not for a while anyway.

MooseRacer

NACRO - I think even the diesel owners are agreeing with you - note the liberal use of the word compromise

NACRO

"note the liberal use of the word compromise"

That's the point diesel is a compromise- one made at the expense of performance. That's exactly what I've been saying. IMHO it's one compromise too far. When they are as fast as the petrol car equiv then I'll be interested. I seriously cannot understand why an enthusiast would go for diesel over petrol at the moment.

chrisp

Seriously considering a Focus TDCI Sport at the moment. They are so quiet its remarkable and quieter but not quite as powerful as the VAG diesel engines but the ford seems to have a better power spread. Had a look at an Ibiza 130 sport and just reading the engine spec made me smile 229lb/ft @ 1900rpm.

[Edited by chrisp - 8/18/2003 11:29:08 PM]

NACRO

The Ibiza 130 Pdi engine will give you a lot more than that when tuned- I'm sure some of the diesel evangelists will be able to go into more detail.

chrisp

I know 180-190bhp chip out there

dteagles

I might be completely wrong here (I drive a Golf Diesel!) but if you compare a Golf GTI (Petrol) with a Golf GTI (Diesel) isn't the Diesel actually faster (only marginal I know), but it is much more economical, has longer service intervals, is cheaper to insure, has better residuals..........

Darren.

GTI

There not fast, there just nippy!
And cheap to run, decent speed, great resale on most compared to petrols.
And damn good cars for diesels!

NACRO

Interesting point with the Golf's- the difference there is remarkably small. A petrol GTi180 V PD150Tdi- the petrol wins in terms of outright speed or performance to give it another name. Or perhaps it doesn't anyone care to enlighten us on the 0-100 times?

As I keep saying when the diesels actually start to perform as well as the petrol versions then perhaps I'll be convinced. For now low rev limits, heavy noses and crap 0-100 times (a good indicator of overall performance) mean that they (diesels) perform well under some circumstances but not ALL circumstances. Which is why I believe they aren't yet performance cars.

For the benefit of those who haven't read the other thread I posted on I've had a few diesel cars with various flavours of the VAG PD engine. I preferred the 150 bhp petrol version- revved higher and felt better to me than the diesel, that said the 150 petrol was no performance car either.

TaviaRS

Whats the comparison like between a 330d and a 330i or the 530d and the 530i? Fairly similar I would imagine. No, I'm not talking standing start stuff, more actually driving the thing. I'm betting there is not a lot in it, especially through the twisties™ .

Personally, they are not for me, I'm a "revvy" driver rather than a ride the wave of torque type. I don't like the way the seem to get strangled at such low revs. Personal prefference I guess.

tiggers

Yikes I duck out for a couple of days and the old diesel chestnut is back.

For the record maybe I'm Stevie Wonder, but I'm in complete agreement with Nacro on this one.

It's the old adage - if you want to get somehwere why handicap yourself by starting from somewhere much farther back than you have to. The modern petrol engine is a damn good basis to start building a performance car from so why start with a diesel engine which is already several steps back in performance terms.

No I'm sorry, but in the UK especially diesels still don't make sense to me for performance motoring. They should be kept for economy motors, trucks and agricultural vehicles (such as Discovery's ).

Regards,

tiggers.

NACRO

Quote: "Whats the comparison like between a 330d and a 330i or the 530d and the 530i? Fairly similar I would imagine. No, I'm not talking standing start stuff, more actually driving the thing. I'm betting there is not a lot in it, especially through the twisties"

It's been done by top gear and according to someone else on here EVO magazine both on track. The petrol powered car was faster on both occasions. Let me guess though, the diesel is still a performance car? Well perhaps yes but slower than the equivalent petrol- end of story.

mik

Since we all sound like broken records I'd like to reiterate my previous offer of a "kiss & make up" type snog for all concerned. (before 9 again Chris...sorry! )

Or can we discuss the merits of Whisky vs Wine?

NACRO

Whisky, wine just doesn't have the performance "hit" of the grain based stuff

cletterridge

Quote NACRO "Thought I'd better clarify the speedster comments- read the Autocar/Express features on it. Runs on energy saving tyres and handles like a pig."

Errr... choice of tyres has nothing to do with it being a diesel - put some decent tyres on it and it would handle just like the Elise/VX220 its based on. I thought you were arguing that you couldn't get decent performance out of a diesel... if 0-60 in under 6s and top speed of over 150mph isn't decent performance for a 1.3 litre DIESEL engine, then I'm not sure what is.

The only advantage petrol engines have over diesel engines is their ability to rev higher. Since power = torque x revs, an engine running at lower revs with the same torque will have lower power. BUT, todays diesel engines typically have much more torque than their petrol equivalents, making a performance diesel engine much more usable in a wider range of motoring situations than the equivalent powered petrol engine. Remember too, petrol engines have received much more technical development than their diesel counterparts until recently so diesel specific outputs will continue to rise more than petrol specific outputs in the near future.

Rich and Mini

SB, fair play mate, mine's a MKII VTS, but I haven't really had a run in with a 330d, although I work for BMW so get to drive a fair few

Rich

NACRO

The speedster isn't even a car that's on the market (and nor will it be) and now you want to start changing the tyres which will automatically give better handling.

As your so fond of the phrase "real world"- then let's keep our observations strictly in the "real world". Otherwise whats the point?- I could start a thread saying jet engines are the only true performance power plants.

Who knows what the speedster would drive like with it's handling sorted? One of the development engineers who'd tried it perhaps? Are you one of them who has done that? If not let's keep that imagination in check.

NACRO

I was arguing that road cars with diesel engines are slower than equivalent petrol alternatives- that's all.

Trust some muppet to start going on about racing cars/ prototpyes etc. Like I said last time someone will start harping on about FIA series trucks next.

chrisp

How is this equivalency being done :

1) List price
2) Compnay car tax
3) Lease cost
4) PCPs
5) Cost per mile

?????????????????????

A 15K diesel will be worth more than a 15K petrol in 3 years time as resale is higher. MPG will be better, insurance is less so you will need a lower powered petrol for equivalence purposes.




[Edited by chrisp - 8/19/2003 8:38:57 PM]

MooseRacer

I'd imagine 1) only Chris, as the rest are examples of the compromises that many people make when choosing a car.

NACRO

The other variables you mention are irrelevant and hard to standardise and quantify. For example I'm not a company car owner so it doesn't apply to me.

If we are talking about which car offers the best balance of performance against total cost of ownership I would say bangs for buck some diesel cars offer excellent value. It's just that for a similar outlay you can get a petrol equivalent that will outperform it.

However I thought we were talking about all out performance for the cash outlayed to start with (the only concrete variable as far as I can see) then petrol is the clear winner.

cletterridge

OK if we're going to talk about EQUIVALENT cars, then we've got to bear in mind that most diesels are tuned not for performance, but for economy (even though the Focus TDCi is often considered quicker A to B than a similar power petrol focus).

So to really answer this question, we've got to compare like with like ie compare a diesel car that hasn't been tuned purely for economy with a petrol car with the same size engine. Admittedly, there aren't that many diesels made today with performance in mind but the BMW Alpina D10 is one that springs to mind. It's "real world", you can buy it today, and it's just diesel remapped for performance instead of economy - so we can compare it with a sporting petrol engine of the same size.

The BMW Alpina D10 has a 3 litre diesel engine, so is equivalent to, say, a BMW 330i.

The diesel wins on bhp (245bhp vs 231bhp), top speed (158mph vs 155mph) and has almost 63% more torque than the 330i (360lbft vs 221lbft). And before you begin to spout your quarter mile drag-strip "real world scenario" spiel, 0-100 is dispatched in 17.5s.

Now are you going to admit that this is a fast diesel car, or are you going to retreat once again to mumbling about the wrong tyres and "jet engines"?


http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?domain...y.php?id=22700

MooseRacer

How can a 41k 5 series be 'like for like' with a 330i which costs what, 30k?




(edited 'cos I answered my own question)

[Edited by MooseRacer - 8/19/2003 11:07:52 PM]

LG John

To make that fair you'd need to compare it to the Shnitzer (sp?) 330 which would tank it.

MooseRacer

An M3 would only set you back 40k which would also annihilate it.

cletterridge

OK, it's more expensive (£41k vs £32k for a 530sport), but that's only because it's low production number, tuned by a third party and only available via importers. There's no reason why BMW themselves couldn't make it for around the same price as a 530d.

As for the merits of diesel power in performance cars overall, I'll let EVO do the talking:

" This car offers truly astonishing performance. You can't quite work it out at first because the soundtrack doesn't match the speed at which the outside world is passing by. "

" This car has to be a turning point. No longer can diesel be dismissed as the dull choice. I'd even say that once these sort of performance diesels are widely available, they'll become the intelligent choice of the clued-up enthusiast. "

" In the first issue of evo, Jeff Daniels predicted the rise of the performance diesel. Three years on, and the first car I've personally awarded the full five stars is... a diesel. "


Now I don't test every different kind of performance car day in, day out, but this guy does and it's the best performance car he's ever rated.