Denmark

iTrader: (2)

Hmm,

Wondering if it´s time to change turbo again


Skassa

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Hi Carlos: Just seen your post on page nine. Thankyou for correcting my spelling/grammar. It is good to have a budy like you looking out for me especially when my teachers gave up on me many years before.
To use it in its correct form: "Wrangling with you surely rankles you."
You state"(and hopefully this will be the end of it on my side)" but then you go on to continue the rankling. OK.
Have you misunderstood the written word or does it just suit you not to do so. I know you are not stupid but I will spell it out for you again. (no pun intended.) A sparking plug(sub item) failure took with it major components, valve and cylinder head. I have already explained this. Do you understand? I think so. The head was recoverable but as I already had a spare it was easier and quicker to do a complete replacement.

"it is used to fill the hole in the cylinder head" This is not necessary but keep going.Your condescending advice on the function of a sparking plug shows just how much I rankle you.

More seriously, I have at no time said anything about bad luck AFAIK. Stick to what is writ. There is no doubt in my mind that heat would have been a major factor in the failure of the plug. I think I said I was pushing the engine towards the limit and the limiting factor was found although the recorded EGTs were lower than I have previously run. At the collector I have run at 940 deg C in the past but on this occassion it was only around 900 deg C and 750 deg C after the turbo.
Only a few days beforehand I changed from PFR7bs to HKS35is. With the NGKs I never had any problems and two of us completely separately suffered failures on the 35is within days of each other. Both make of plugs are probably OK in less stressed engines and the NGKs had operated satisfactorily for me under similar conditions on several occassions in the past. Remember that I had already concluded I was pushing towards the limit.
As the failure was a limiting factor I have now changed to a different plug altogether and when I get the opportunity I will get a couple of rolling road runs and then accept that it would be unwise to take this particular engine further.

The history is well documented and 18mths and 26k mls is not bad to date. I do not know of anybody else with a comparable engine and reliability record.
Do you???

Please feel free to continue to correct my spelling. The idea of a Peruvian teaching a Porridge Wog English is sure to amuse a lot of people.

Adios Amigo.

P.S. I admire your second language ability and you are to be complimented.
"too much heat present in the combustion chamber which LEAD to the damage"
Lead=present tense. Led=past tense.
Maybe we can help each other.

R19KET

Harvey,

Are you referring to the limit of the plugs ?

Mark.

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Harvey

Which plugs did you change to?

I'm Looking at this thread with interest and would also be interested in the TM Turbo and the TD06/20G......... as I have not yet changed my turbo..... just seeing what others are doing for once rather then wasting shed loads of money!

I guess I like the fact that the TDO6 is signficantly cheaper than the VF Turbo?

nom

jonny gav - nope, the LP hybrid doesn't use the same compressor wheel, it uses one that works
Seriously, though - has Andy's 'choice' got round the early surge problems yet? I heard rumours, but nothing concrete...

And, rather than the negative banter, I think that Harvey's, Andy's, Adam's, Mark's - and everyone & anyone else's efforts - should be appluaded with all these goings-on, even if they may occassionaly end rather unexpectedly rather than pointed at in an accusatory manner: this is mainly intended to be 'on the edge' stuff - it wouldn't be 'on the edge' if something didn't happen unexpectedly sometimes, & someone out there has to be brave/stupid() enough to go out & push the limits! If they didn't, the rest of us wouldn't know where that limit was so would still be pratting around at under 300bhp...

[Edited by nom - 8/20/2003 1:23:17 PM]

darkblueturbo

nom - here, here...


But I'm now even more confused than I was before I started the thread... LOL!
I won't even consider these hybrid jobbies with compressors and turbines and wot nots from 17 different units... When setup right I'm sure they make the best turbo's as they're custom just for you.

After everything everyone's said, though I'd still love to try AndyG's td05/06/20g whatever it is (I got lost!) I'll probably go for VF24 or TD05 cos they both seem to be rated very highly by their users and buying a single unit is probably the best idea for me as the first turbo conversion I'm doing...

So, what are the rough prices for these units (honestly, I don't know except it wil have 4 figures).

Mind you, without sounding like a pansy,I've been exploring the limits of mine decatted with a standard turbo and at the moment I feel like it's plenty of ponies for the road!
But as we know I'll get used to it and want more, but with my sensible head on I'll get a tek3 and getused to that before I get the turbo.
So we're probably looking at next spring (depending on cash flow and how quickly I want more power!) before I take the plunge.

Thanks for all your help guys, I'll keep a link to this thread in my faves so I can refer back to it when the time comes. But I'll be keeping an eye on it anyway, cos I've found it all very interesting - I love stuff like this... Thanks again, I'll be mooching around with my TD04 keeping away from you nutters with your big fat blowers...

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I was not referring to the limit of the plugs but I sure found it.
There will be a limit to the power this engine can produce and as I have already come a long way beyond what was accepted as big power (360-380bhp)as long ago as last Autumn, I may be getting close to that limit. Perhaps I am being cautious but now I want to incorporate the lessons learned in a new two litre engine starting with that engine where I leave off with this one while this is still a reliable high power unit.
There has been an incredible amount of talk, dreams and hot air about big power and big capacity engines over the last ten months even though none of them are proven yet and I do wonder how many will eventually appear and with what result.The guys who think they know what they are talking about seem to think that the list of necessary items is substantial and includes CDB,larger diameter head studs,special gaskets,fancy head work, cams,special piston coatings etc etc. My poor engine has none of these advantages but by starting again I can incorpoate in the new engine what I think will work.
It should be interesting. If that proves successful, and I am sure it will, then it may be time to look at an alternative power unit.

Fangoria: Speak to Andy F.

Nom : Thankyou for your kind comments.

dbt.: If you keep your eyes open you can pick up a decent TD-05 for £150. That could be a good starting point when you are ready to proceed.Look at the track record of the turbos you short list. Remember that most owners and manufacturers will tell you their product is the best thing since sliced bread. You need proof,like reputable rolling road graphs and a drive in it at the very least.How does the spec of the car compare with yours etc. Do not be taken in by flowery, volumous sales talk.
P.S. You do not need to spend four figures to get a good turbo to do what you want.

[Edited by harvey - 8/20/2003 4:43:57 PM]

EvilBevel

Maybe it's just me, but this is a very depressing thread to me.

Every time someone asks for a good turbo, **** is flinging left, right and centre.

It's not just this BBS (for once ), 22B.com is suffering from the same. Chest thumping galore.

Will all those loudmouths please consider to shut up for a while and stroke their engines or something ?

This has gone beyond ridiculous. Or am I missing the ghist of "UK banter" ?

So basically we don't know what the better turbo's are ? As there is much debate over it ?

In that case, stick to a VF35 and let all the "big power" guys fight it out amongst themselves. (I don't have a VF35, but a VF23 BTW, crap turbo obviously)

300/300 is what you could aim for, and have a reliable powerful car. (you know, the ones that run at least 11 months a year ) You won't "win" TOTB, but you may have fun with it.

What a pathetic show. Gentlemen, get your acts together.

Theo

EMS

Why thinking about a VF24? I already told the VF35 outperforms EVERY other old IHI turbo without a problem! (on spool up AND in top end performance) The design is about 5 years newer and you can feel that. The TD05 is able to produce more HP, so could be interesting. (spool up however is slower than VF35!)

Mark.

Pavlo

Okay there is some flying crap. However in this thread I feel it's in good taste, is actually quite funny where intended, and of no great harm.

I am still searching for a turbo, i thought I had found it, but I may have a play first.

Paul

darkblueturbo

EMS - I'm worried about the VF35 turbo. Drove an STi8 and the lag was shocking. I'd hate that on my car...

OK so it won't be as bad as mine's a decat... on a decatted car, where would you expect the turbo to start boosting.

My TD04 starts at well below 3000 and I want to keep it as near that as possible...

And you did kind of prove EvilBevel's "chest thumping" point by stating the VF35 out performs every other IHI available.

I want a reliable just over 300 horses with as little lag as possible. If that means 310 rather than 330 then fine... I just don't want to wait forever for it to spool up cos it really doesn't suit my driving style. I didn't enjoy the STi8 at all in that department so it makes me wary of putting it's blower in my car!

[Edited by darkblueturbo - 8/20/2003 7:11:08 PM]

R19KET

DBT,

I wouldn't like to comment on Mark's (EMS) statement about the VF35 giving the most power, but it is certainly capable of spooling up quickly.

It's quite well known that the stock STi7/8 map is pretty laggy, and it would be worth trying a car which has been Ecutek'd.

Like Carlos pointed out, a VF35, correctly mapped, can produce 1 bar @ 2700rpm.

You can ask about ANY turbo, and some people will love it, and others will HATE it. Steven Darley made the best suggestion. At least this will give you an idea about the different characteristics of each turbo, in conjunction with other mod's.

Then pick the one YOU like the best.

Mark.

R19KET

Harvey,

PLEASE take this in the context it is intended !

Up until the point where your engine had a problem, it had been very reliable, and produced great results.

The problem we have, it that YOURS, it the ONLY engine I know of, that has produced those type of figures, with that spec'. IE: un studed open deck block.

Now it may well be that this can be re-produced with consistant results, but I can only say that on "MY" STi4 open deck engine, the head gaskets let go, running far less boost.

I think it would be fair to say that we'd need to see several more engines of similar spec', running just as reliably, before the "spec'" could be considered "Reliable".

Most of what you have mentioned here, are not specific to Subaru's, but things that would be done as standard on other big engine builds, such as Cosworths, Evo's, etc', etc'. Even the stock STi pistons are coated.

Some people are just taking the experience gained in building other engines, and using the same on the Subaru engines. Other things, such as bigger head studs, have been "borrowed" from the experiences of the Australians, who have been getting ridiculous levels of power for years. Prodrive have been fitting them for years, Roger Clark also stock these, and ARP now do a head stud kit for the Subaru too.

Lastly, I thought that Bob had told me he was using the HKS40i's, which are "8's".

Mark.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I cannot answer for Bob ask him. I was using HKS 35is. Bob told me he was using HKS and suffered the same failure without the unfortunate consequences.My previous PFR7B had been OK.
Like I said, this engine does not have any of the fancy things listed which seem popular on here so I have big studs with my CDB on the new engine and when it is finished there will have been minor head work and higher lift cams.
Do not see the need for special gaskets or piston coatings however.
Just my opinion.
As this has nothing to do with turbos suggest you start another thread if you wish to continue.

Bob Rawle

Not using S40's as they are poor off boost and on idle and don't give any benefits in my view, my plug lost the end of an insulator following some VERY VERY heavy duty R & D relating to fueling adjusments over two days however it didn't manifest as anything, I only discovered it when I removed plugs to replace at 5k miles and just before TOTB as routine. I know this is when it suffered as I had had them out to check and gap the day before the R & D.

I am currently running a fresh set of NGK racing 8's BUT, they are far too cold for normal use and I get away with it pretty well by running v high advance under cruise to get them good and hot, egt's circa 850 or so at 80 mph in top. these were put in at the time and have remained in place since, starting is a "bit" of a struggle but thats all. I also drive them a bit harder than normal (duration wise).

Can confirm there are a few more engines than Harveys running 400 plus that are using std cranks and blocks to good effect with no problems ... yet. They are using modified big ends/mains and the usyal uprated pistons and rods. Studs are to be recommended if 2 bar boost is run although I am not using and have had no problems. I have a semi-closed deck block.

Back to the turbo question.

carlos_hiraoka

Like EMS says, IHI VF35 is you obvious choice, will do everything that you are requesting. That is the only turbo that I have tried that has similar spool up to the OEM TD04.

Carlos H.

Callum Ferguson

iTrader: (1)

Slightly off topic but does anyone know the going rate for SH VF35's in good condition? I have a cunning plan which needs money

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Sh!!!

[Edited by harvey - 8/21/2003 8:34:05 AM]

EMS

It gives noticably more power top end compared to a VF23 in the same condition. It builds up boost from quite low RPM, but what is also very important: the spool up time at eg. 4000 RPM is (much) quicker than any other turbo I have seen which is able to produce more than 300 BHP!

DBT,

Please don´t make your statement after driving an STi! That car in standard form realy has slow spool up, NOTHING compared to a older Impreza with the VF35 and decat exhaust.

P.S. A customer of mine just measures 270 BHP and 254 LBft. (on DD road dyno) at the wheels with VF35 in a slightly modified MY99...........

Mark.

R19KET

Mark (EMS)

How does the VF35 compare with the VF30, and VF34 for power ?

Mark.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

For those following the turbo theme - the turbo I installed for TOTB was indeed the same spec as Alan Gs, and I would expect that Alan has got the most out of it of any of the users today - shame he wasn't entered for TOTB.

However even with standard headers and uppipe this turbo really did show its potential.

Jonny - as I think it had been elucidated elsewhere it is indeed a development of the TD05/6 hybrid that was first tried three years ago - however it utilises a wheel that provides better boost threshold characteristics than the 20G wheel as it does not suffer from surge. I believe that the 20g has given excellent results however requires a cutbackwheel which I regard as a sub-optimal and retrograde step.

ON my car 1.5bar is possible at 3,500-3,600 rpm, without surge.

This is not to detract from the outright performance of the 20G hybrid - however the hybrid I am using provides an excellent overall road performance which is very satisfactory for a standard open decked block engine.

I think for someone seeking 350bhp at low boost - this would be very achievable with the right installation.

Rannoch

EMS

I only have experience with the VF30 on one car in completely different setup. It produced a bit more topend power, but that doesn´t suprise me as that car was equiped with FMIC and manifold. (and I pushed the boost to it´s limit) However the VF30 is quite laggy compared to the 35!

The fact is, there is asked for a turbo suitable for little over 300 BHP with as little lag as possible. Looking at the turbo´s I have seen, it can only be the VF35. (perhaps there is some TD04 hybrid that is able to top it, but I don´t know) It is able to produce about 310 BHP with topmount without any problems and conservative mapping. Of course there are lots of turbo´s that are capable to flow much more air, but all of them are more laggy.

Mark.

R19KET

Mark,

I'm not questioning your suggestion of a VF35, I think it's a very good choice for the given criteria, and can't think of a better option.

My question was directed at your above statement, and the claim that it out performs EVERY other VF, including top end. I was surprised that a VF35, would give more top end power than a VF34.

Mark.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Actually the the original question was for a turbo to do 320-350bhp.

Having used three turbos on my car that achieved this on a standard engine and pipework - my choice would be the latest TD hybrid as it is the least laggy, has the lowest boost threshold and flows and awful lot of cold air. The lower charge temps evident by the outrageous levels of advance possible with this turbo compared to two VF turbos I have tried.

Rannoch

EMS

Mark,

I had to be more specific, but with "old" IHI turbo´s I mean the VF2x series.

Mark.

nom

Again, headers come back to being important here regarding the response/'feel' of the turbo.
Changing between a set of HKS 4-1 jobbies & an MRT 4-2 (virtually no '2-1' at all - the two join basically at the entrance to the turbo), the feel of the power delivery changed considerably. IMO, the MRT ones give a snappy response & bring the spool-point down considerably but choke things higher up, whereas the HKS are smoother - I'd almost say laggier - & only really work well at 4,200rpm+ (at which point they work very well indeed!)
In other words, it's possible to change the feel/response of the car with the headers. And matching headers to turbo is really quite critical.
Anyway, I drivel. Again. But do consider a well matched set of headers to the turbo! Unless you're a hairdresser & don't want to change the 'scoob sound', that is

[Edited by nom - 8/21/2003 1:05:32 PM]

darkblueturbo

I did indeed originally state 320 - 350 was the target, but as the thread has moved on and I've spoken with other people off of this thread I've started to realise that this would be too laggy for my needs, so amended my want to little over 300. Just so I can tell people I've got a 300brake scoob Childish I know, but it's so much better than saying 290 something

The VF35 is looking like the most promising option indeed.
I know not to judge it from a car with 3 cats when I have none, and it's about the only turbo on here, along with a TD05, no ones found a fault with!!
I've still got the VF28 in my head, cos that's what was used on the STi5/6 and P1 (which I loved driving!)
And still got the VF24, cos it came highly recommended from a local tuner.

So the choice is narrowing, but it's looking like VF35. But maybe a TD05 if I can really get one for as few pennies as was earlier mentioned...!

But, for now, I'll stick with the TD04 and just remap the ECU to get a bit nearer to the hallowed 300 before I take the step over

And on the note about the headers making a difference... I don't intend changing mine cos equal length jobbies lose that boxer beat.
You can call me a tart if you wish

sg72

Been a very intersting thread

And has sparked me to make a move.

3 port solenoid.
W/Injection(Can I use redundant waterspray tank? STI 5 Type R HKS FMIC)
Fuel regulator/guage.
HKS headers.
550 injectors.

All on order.

Now Andy F. YHM.

Will have 3 month old VF 34 for sale soon.(Tops @ a reliable 310 on my car. 20PSI boost.

darkblueturbo

can someone explain to me what the solenoid is? And what advantages a 3-port one has over whatever the standard is.

SG72 - Glad it's inspired you to spend cash on the car..

Dyney

Keep going guys.
Very interesting