darkblueturbo

One of the reason's I'm only aiming for 320 / 330 without a laggy turbo is the driveability factor - I don't want to ruin my scoob just for a big headline figure.
The other reason is it's a UK car and would blow itself to bits with much more power than that...

After reading everyone's threads the TD05 front entry looks a good idea.
Saw some good times (13.1) from XSCOOBY with a VF24 on a UK MY00 at the Pod on Sunday.
Also, 'bigsky' mentioned right at the start of this thread about a VF35 (which I've never heard of) being powerful but not laggy, which is exactly what I'm after.

Can anyone post details, if available, of roughly where in the rev range the turbo's start to spool up on a decatted car and how much power they can comfortably make. I won't bother with a turbo that is being pushed to it's limit at 320, cos I'd stress it too much. Likewise if it doesn't spool up till 3500rpm I'm not gonna want it...

The turbo's I'm looking at are the following:
TD05
VF23
VF24
VF28
VF30
VF35
Anything else by the likes of Garrett or APS (don't really know a lot about the blowers TBH)

I want up to 330horses with the most driveability possible. I'd settle for a few less ponies if it made the car pickup and go quicker. I drive in the real world, not on the race tracks.

Gotta get a bigger TMIC (don't want a front mount) and waterspray too - but that's another thread altogether...

C

Andy FYI - i pinched this off the MLR

353 BHP AT WHEELS 465 BHP AT THE FLYWHEEL,425 LB/FT TORQUE

doesnt say where this was made in the rev range, but it is still a 2.0 engine, albeit with uprated internals

its not your car I was querying it was the massive difference between the other 2.0 that is well talked about, as I believe they are more comparable weight wise etc.

your times are far more consistent with what I personally would expect

AFAIK the 2.3 evo you were tlaking about was having some bad running issues? not 100% on that though.

John do you really think the Evo in a tuned 2.0 form is that much better than the scoob? i dont mean that in a stirring way, genuinly intregued (sp)

john banks

Depending on the dyno you want your figures at you could struggle with all but the TD05 if you want 330 BHP.

I would recommend a TD05 with fuel pressure at 4 bar, water injection and uprated TMIC to aim for your target.

john banks

Without a doubt.

darkblueturbo

thanks John... You like the TD05, don't you...
Mind you, you're not the first person to recommend this unit to me... An ECUTEK mapper I know through a friend said the same thing

330 isn't a must get to figure... Just a nice place to aim for and I've been told it's the limit on a UK with standard internals.
Whatever happens I HAVE to get over 300

The reason I'm so interested in the IHI's is that they're roller bearing's and so have faster spool up, thus reducing lag (correct me if I'm wrong, please...)

darkblueturbo

I'd agree with that... I just think they're ugly buggers and I lovemy classic scoooob

john banks

Allegedly

They have small turbine wheels with limited top end flow capacity. You would imagine this would give you very quick spool up along with all the bearing technology employed.

The compressor wheels are really best at low boost levels, the VF22,34 and 35 like to surge despite never really flowing that much, and you will be surprised how little boost you can run reliably through a VF compared with a Mitsubishi.

The VF35 does have a bit more low down than a TD05, but a 330 BHP on any dyno might be a bit tricky, especially with a TMIC.

darkblueturbo

what sort of top end power would I be looking at, reliably, from a VF35 then... if it's 310ish, I'd be happy enough with that for the small gain low down over the TD05...

Thanks...

Delboy2

What Bhp/torque is theoretically possible from a TD05 with the 90 deg elbow and also the major differences when converted to front entry.

john banks

darkblueturbo, I would say 310 VF24/28/29/35, 320 VF23/30/34, 340 TD05 if you want to be sensible. The higher numbers do need a FMIC. Add 10% if you are not being sensible, add another 10% if you go to a higher reading dyno.

marcin@klubsubaru.pl

From my limited experience regarding VF34. You can run 12.4 @ 187kph. There is lag (well, I have FMIC and Gruppe-S, they also contribute to that). And you can reach 1.5 bar @ 4000 going down to 1.0 @ 7000. I like this turbo - for a daily driver.
And I just received a TD05/06 hybrid from Andy - in 3 weeks I will let you know the results

Delboy2

John B - Are the figures stated with the 90deg elbow still in place or without?

Cheers

Pavlo

Harvey,

I was under the impression your car was now under 1250kg, in which case you would only be giving away about 100kg to Andy's car. How did you come up with the 250kg figure?

I was very impressed with your terminals for the 1/4 before the plug went, and I would expect sub 12 second quarters.

I would also say however, that a lightweight flywheel seemed to do Andy no favours.

paul

john banks

I don't know what you knock off for the elbow as I have never done anything with the elbow on. David Wallis had some Well Lane results with the elbow still on - think it got about 350-355 BHP IIRC?

[Edited by john banks - 8/13/2003 4:58:01 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

Marcin what type of boost control mechanism are u using ?, as I find that getting 1.5bar out of a VF34 @ 4000rpm to be very laggy indeed even if you are using a FMIC and Gruppe-S headers.

Andy.F

The VF34 can't have been that laggy Carlos 12.4 secs would have embarassed some 'better' equiped scoobies at totb recently

Andy

Trout

iTrader: (1)

...wishes he had had headers and an uppipe to have better equipped his Scoob...

carlos_hiraoka

Andy, like u have felt on that very hot TOTB2 day that temperature plays a key role on the 1/4 times. I have several sub 12s times with my car (either with the LP hybrid VF, similar to a MD304, or a FE TD05-16g using stock ported headers ), best up to date is 11.88s with RACE GAS ..... but I reckon that this was done with ambient temperatures from 15C to 20C and with our 95% humidity here in Lima ..... and BTW my car (also an RA) is a tad lighter than yours so don't really think that mine is a fair comparison (I have removed the protection bars on each of the rear doors, not to mention no stereo, no A/C and plexiglas for the rear windows, etc) )

Carlos H.


[Edited by carlos_hiraoka - 8/14/2003 5:26:58 AM]

carlos_hiraoka

BTW 15 - 20C is our WINTER TIME

Carlos H.

marcin@klubsubaru.pl

Carlos, what I meant is that it can be 1.5 maybe 1.55 at 4krpm but than it goes down. Of course it reaches it earlier - I would say I have 1 bar at app. 3000-3200 and than it's quickly at 1.5 but I did not have time to study my logs in such details
My engine is managed by Autronic.
Regarding my times - temp was app. 25C, I've run on street tyres and normal gas with some octane booster. With standard turbo gearbox And the car is not so much stripped. I think I could reach low 12s with enough practice on that setup, but the new one should be better - hoping for mid 11s on slicks.

Andy.F

Ah, we decide to recognise this now do we What time do you think my car would run on a cooler day ?

Andy

darkblueturbo

it's always going to run quicker on a colder day.

Even just driving on the roads I notice that in the cold air of the mornings the standard ECU turns the boost up from 14.5psi to 16psi cos the intake temperature is so much lower, which means it picks up much quicker when you boot it, so it's going to give far better 1/4 times if the air's colder, or you've soaked the IC with waterspray or, as I saw Andy555 doing at USC, leaving ice on his intercooler while waiting for his run to keep the charge temp down...!! He ran a 14.03 on a street setup 97 WRX when all other similarly setup cars were running 14.6 / 14.7s

David_Wallis

John 345Bhp @ 6200 and 342Lbft @ 4300 iirc

With 90deg elbow. and 20 - 22 psi

Seem to remember you mentioning that boost was too much though

David

harvey

iTrader: (48)

David : Confused? Why?
"it might be for sale" What might be for sale.???
215 x 40 x 17 tyres and 4.11 diffs. In March I had 3.9 diffs to do a 12.28 at 116mph and sometime prior to that 4.44s which were way too low for everyday long distance travel.
1st=3.166, 2nd=1.882, 3rd=1.296 4th=.972, 5th=.738.
You think my car should do low 11s whereas with 450 bhp+ I will be very happy breaking 12.1secs.
What was your ET and terminal last time at Elvington and from your 600bhp what ETs/terminals do you anticipate.

C : " an apparent 470bhp & only a 12.10 1/4?" Are you referring to me? I have stated 450bhp+ and there is nothing "apparent" about it. 128mph and 176 mph bears that out.

JB " Maybe there are difficulties in launching a 2 litre Scooby with a turbo that is too large and laggy for our long lengths of header? Maybe the peak power figures are optimistic and they don't tell the story of..."
I note you think my turbo is too large and laggy (unless you are referring to Bob,s) You are of course welcome to your opinion but without driving the car how do you come to this conclusion?
Optimistic power figures??? My figures are well proven and probably concervative now.

Pavlo : Fair point about the weight.
On a recent trip to Scotland Andy and I discovered there was a 250kg difference in our weights. However this was with my car full of gear as it arrived. In the interests of accuracy the actual figures are as follows: A. Forrest + car + 1/2 tank fuel = 1260kg.
My car less all mats and loose gear=1290kg +1/2 tank fuel + self =1410kg.
I have only ever done three serious launches with the current flywheel,clutch and 4.11s and the feel is a lot different but I am sure that had I had a few more launches on the day then 12.1 was on the cards.

john banks

David - Boost is a poor fat man's way to power If you are thin and rich you can have a heavy NA V8 without weighing the car down or blowing your bank account (or your head gasket ). I love boost

Harvey, how much torque do you have at 3500 RPM? I did say "maybe", clearly I have not driven your car.

[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2003 1:18:46 PM]

C

Harvey - yes it was - genuine interest...

I dont see how if yours is 450bhp (conservative) as you say, and an Evo 5 GSR weighing approx 1350kgs and running a proven 465bhp can make such a massive difference in times?

1st time at totb & he hits an 11.2, never even launched the car in anger

I know a certain RR operator clled your car 'very laggy' in a magazine article a while ago maybe others have seen it which is what they make reference to?

450-500bhp is deep into the 11's terratory imo, 600bhp should see you well into the 10's

All IMHO of course

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Thinks it strange that Andy thinks my car is only 35kgs heavier than his! If anything it is the same weight as Harveys. Although my guess for mine was 1285kg. I must get it weighed

Also thinking that maybe I won't bother with my new engine now as a conservative 450bhp only gets me 12.1s, and my standard engine and pipework got me a 12.4s with probably 340bhp on the day

Rannoch

carlos_hiraoka

it is all about the gearing .....

Carlos H.

john banks

Didn't Andy get similar times with UK and RA gearing?

tweenierob

It all depends on the driver IMHO

David, what power are you hoping for with the new engine?? I understand if you dont want to say. If you can run 12.4 (i like the way you have rounded it off to 12.4) with 340ish then lets say for example you have 500hp with some nice torque you should run low 11's.

I honestly reckon that Andy could drop his time with WRX gearing.

Lightened flywheels are no good for drag IMO, i can say this because i have actually tried both.. I was not impressed when i fitted my lightened flywheel, i believe that the std weight flywheel has an inertia effect when you launch the car and the extra weight gives more of a punch to the drivetrain. I could deffo feel the difference when launching my car with each flywheel.
Next... FMIC!
Not my cup of tea either, they may be good for track days and power runs but i dont like em, i have no doubt in my mind that my proper engine will run with a Chargecooler, hopefully to the same std as Pavlo's if it works well. The loss of acceleration between gears was depressing with the FMIC, this was with the TD05 and then the TD06.. Dont get me wrong the in gear power was great but deffo not good for drag.
I found the best way to launch my car was...... Sorry cant say cause everyone will copy me and be the best

Rob



[Edited by tweenierob - 8/14/2003 8:22:14 PM]