Talk to me about TURBOS
26 August 2003, 02:08 AM
#271
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Andy,
Hmmmm, so the 20G made 395.5bhp @ 1.35bar, and the Garrett hybrid version made 391bhp @ 1.4bar, or just under 1.4bar I think Alan said. Both using pump fuel, and on the same RR, but on different days.
This hardly supports your comments about the disparities in efficiency between the two versions of the turbo. The difference is so small, that two runs, back to back, could show those differences.
So, now we have two turbo's, that flow a very similar amount of air at a similar boost pressure, giving very similar results, when compared "like for like", but one will run higher boost at lower rpm, without surging...........
Glad you helped me clear that up.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 8/26/2003 2:47:02 AM]
I have had 2 runs on plain optimax and made 375 bhp @ 1.17bar and 395.5 bhp @ 1.35bar
This hardly supports your comments about the disparities in efficiency between the two versions of the turbo. The difference is so small, that two runs, back to back, could show those differences.
So, now we have two turbo's, that flow a very similar amount of air at a similar boost pressure, giving very similar results, when compared "like for like", but one will run higher boost at lower rpm, without surging...........
Glad you helped me clear that up.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 8/26/2003 2:47:02 AM]
26 August 2003, 10:30 AM
#272
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Mark
As long as we do the comparison with Alans car running like my one was that day - on a totally standard ECU and not a Link !!!
Not that fitting a Link ECU makes that much difference of course
Andy
As long as we do the comparison with Alans car running like my one was that day - on a totally standard ECU and not a Link !!!
Not that fitting a Link ECU makes that much difference of course
Andy
26 August 2003, 10:49 AM
#273
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Andy,
You've proven how well the stock ECU can work, when someone of your ability knows how to set everything up correctly. Your figures speak for them selves.
However, am I correct in saying that Paul (Pavlo) re-mapped the chip for you, to suit the 550's, and boost ? If so, more like an Ecutek re-map, than just running a "stock" ECU.
Anyway, you seem to be getting even better results with the Microtech ECU, and no doubt, there's even more to come.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 8/26/2003 10:57:40 AM]
You've proven how well the stock ECU can work, when someone of your ability knows how to set everything up correctly. Your figures speak for them selves.
However, am I correct in saying that Paul (Pavlo) re-mapped the chip for you, to suit the 550's, and boost ? If so, more like an Ecutek re-map, than just running a "stock" ECU.
Anyway, you seem to be getting even better results with the Microtech ECU, and no doubt, there's even more to come.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 8/26/2003 10:57:40 AM]
26 August 2003, 02:04 PM
#275
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Hi Mike - You have mail 
Mark, The clue was in the text
It was a totally standard ECU
Paul was still developing the maps to suit my cars 'odd' set up !!
I have never run on the rollers with the remaped JECS but all credit to Paul, he spent a lot of time working on this and the results on the AP22 were looking very promising with approx +20bhp at the top end and a much stronger midrange.
As you say, the Microtech ECU then came along and things moved on
Andy
Mark, The clue was in the text
It was a totally standard ECU
Paul was still developing the maps to suit my cars 'odd' set up !!
I have never run on the rollers with the remaped JECS but all credit to Paul, he spent a lot of time working on this and the results on the AP22 were looking very promising with approx +20bhp at the top end and a much stronger midrange.
As you say, the Microtech ECU then came along and things moved on
Andy
02 September 2003, 05:02 PM
#276
"Harvey
If i can use your car as an example to demonstrate how it's the whole package which matters, Harvey's car produced just shy of 380BHP on 19psi (1.3bar)boost pressure using a VF28 turbo , however to achieve that figure, other components were matched to suit. It's not one item giving the target horsepower.These figures are backed up by rolling road graphs to confirm." Alan G.
The car had produced 355bhp and a set of Ion 4-1 headers and up-pipe were then fitted. The exhaust inlet into the VF28 was opened out and ported to match the bigger diameter up-pipe which came with the headers. On the same rollers and without a re-map the car then recorded 377bhp. I think this was on the very edge of what we could achieve from the VF28. For instance there was a lot of surge from the turbo if trying to cruise at say 125mph. ie Steady part throttle at constant speed. As soon as a little more throttle was applied to accelerate the surge stopped.
I then fitted an Ion Performance P450 Garret/HKS hybrid. This gave 417bhp after a remap. With other work this turbo is now producing around 440bhp and 400ft/lbs at 1.5/1.55 bar and well over 450bhp at 1.8 bar.
As Danny Fisher pointed out it would have been possible to get the car to the 360-380 bracket with fewer mods and bolting on a turbo but by doing everything progressively, there was a good base to work from once a suitable turbo was identified.
Choosing a turbo was not easy at first. There were offerings from both BRD and Lateral and both their turbos were made by Turbo Dynamics but I was not confident this was the best performance option and I think that is now well proven. At that time I was not aware of any Scoobies with more than 380bhp in every day use. There were several turbo manufacturers willing to put something together but they did not have specific Subaru experience or an existing turbo to try out and I did not want to be a guinea pig and possibly end up with something that was very laggy or had no power below medium to high revs. Fortunately I found Ion, the turbo cost less than the previous offerings and the results speak for themselves.
This was before Andy F started his work on the TD05-o6 20G so that was not a consideration.
I guess the best way to choose a turbo after the other modifications are finalised is to find a car with the turbo you have shortlisted and have a ride in it. Where does it start to spool,where does it get 1 bar of boost in 4th for instance {make allowances for shorter or taller gearing},what pressure will it run and over what rev range. Remember the proud owner of the car may have a biased view of the turbo's abilities so make your own independant judgement as you will be spending anything from £600 to £1200.
If i can use your car as an example to demonstrate how it's the whole package which matters, Harvey's car produced just shy of 380BHP on 19psi (1.3bar)boost pressure using a VF28 turbo , however to achieve that figure, other components were matched to suit. It's not one item giving the target horsepower.These figures are backed up by rolling road graphs to confirm." Alan G.
The car had produced 355bhp and a set of Ion 4-1 headers and up-pipe were then fitted. The exhaust inlet into the VF28 was opened out and ported to match the bigger diameter up-pipe which came with the headers. On the same rollers and without a re-map the car then recorded 377bhp. I think this was on the very edge of what we could achieve from the VF28. For instance there was a lot of surge from the turbo if trying to cruise at say 125mph. ie Steady part throttle at constant speed. As soon as a little more throttle was applied to accelerate the surge stopped.
I then fitted an Ion Performance P450 Garret/HKS hybrid. This gave 417bhp after a remap. With other work this turbo is now producing around 440bhp and 400ft/lbs at 1.5/1.55 bar and well over 450bhp at 1.8 bar.
As Danny Fisher pointed out it would have been possible to get the car to the 360-380 bracket with fewer mods and bolting on a turbo but by doing everything progressively, there was a good base to work from once a suitable turbo was identified.
Choosing a turbo was not easy at first. There were offerings from both BRD and Lateral and both their turbos were made by Turbo Dynamics but I was not confident this was the best performance option and I think that is now well proven. At that time I was not aware of any Scoobies with more than 380bhp in every day use. There were several turbo manufacturers willing to put something together but they did not have specific Subaru experience or an existing turbo to try out and I did not want to be a guinea pig and possibly end up with something that was very laggy or had no power below medium to high revs. Fortunately I found Ion, the turbo cost less than the previous offerings and the results speak for themselves.
This was before Andy F started his work on the TD05-o6 20G so that was not a consideration.
I guess the best way to choose a turbo after the other modifications are finalised is to find a car with the turbo you have shortlisted and have a ride in it. Where does it start to spool,where does it get 1 bar of boost in 4th for instance {make allowances for shorter or taller gearing},what pressure will it run and over what rev range. Remember the proud owner of the car may have a biased view of the turbo's abilities so make your own independant judgement as you will be spending anything from £600 to £1200.
08 October 2003, 12:01 PM
#277
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Andy,
on the day I was running 1.4bar...
...however the restrictor size was wrong and so we had to play safe with the boost control. It is VERY sensitive to the restrictor size. Slightly larger was killing the boost rise - slightly smaller and 2bar of overboost. Need something in the middle now
On Monday we did some more mapping - got a LOT more advance and got much better boost control. Running 1.6bar in all gears now with 1.5bar from around 3,500rpm with no surge - and it is quicker
- hence my comments about the potential for a low 12s or even high elevens - even with lardy Sti
Rannoch
[Edited by Rannoch - 8/10/2003 12:15:22 PM]
on the day I was running 1.4bar...
...however the restrictor size was wrong and so we had to play safe with the boost control. It is VERY sensitive to the restrictor size. Slightly larger was killing the boost rise - slightly smaller and 2bar of overboost. Need something in the middle now
On Monday we did some more mapping - got a LOT more advance and got much better boost control. Running 1.6bar in all gears now with 1.5bar from around 3,500rpm with no surge - and it is quicker
- hence my comments about the potential for a low 12s or even high elevens - even with lardy Sti Rannoch
[Edited by Rannoch - 8/10/2003 12:15:22 PM]
08 October 2003, 02:02 PM
#278
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Rannoch
No doubt the std headers/uppipe will be holding you back. Be carefull not to confuse boost pressure with good flow, on the std headers I was running 1.8 bar midrange/top end and achieving less power (432bhp) than I am now at just over 1.4 bar (440bhp).
An efficient compressor is the key to high performance at low boost, this is where the Mitsubishi 20g compressor wheel really excels.
Look forward to seeing your ET/terminals at the scooby shootout
Andy
ps Was this the same turbo as Steven was using ?
[Edited by Andy.F - 8/10/2003 2:05:05 PM]
No doubt the std headers/uppipe will be holding you back. Be carefull not to confuse boost pressure with good flow, on the std headers I was running 1.8 bar midrange/top end and achieving less power (432bhp) than I am now at just over 1.4 bar (440bhp).
An efficient compressor is the key to high performance at low boost, this is where the Mitsubishi 20g compressor wheel really excels.
Look forward to seeing your ET/terminals at the scooby shootout
Andy
ps Was this the same turbo as Steven was using ?
[Edited by Andy.F - 8/10/2003 2:05:05 PM]
08 October 2003, 04:37 PM
#279
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Carlos
I would say that Stevens 12.45 @ 118 is bang on the mark for 350 bhp
Trouts car however must need to go on a diet It should be 'much' faster especially with the Sti heads and cams running at 1.4 bar
Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 8/10/2003 4:39:16 PM]
I would say that Stevens 12.45 @ 118 is bang on the mark for 350 bhp
Trouts car however must need to go on a diet
It should be 'much' faster especially with the Sti heads and cams running at 1.4 bar Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 8/10/2003 4:39:16 PM]
08 October 2003, 04:48 PM
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Andy,
well having achieved around 350 at both Well Lane and PE - my car never got under 13s...
...must be improving my launch technique.
What I want to know is that you had 11.87s with 350bhp....what are you doing with all those extra horses you have - or are they Shetlands
Maybe it is something to do with Elvington - I mean Harvey has had well over 400bhp most of the year - and IIRC he only just cracked 12.4s once at the practice day
Rannoch
PS You have just taken 0.05s of Stevens time - with that he would have beaten me
[Edited by Rannoch - 8/10/2003 4:51:40 PM]
well having achieved around 350 at both Well Lane and PE - my car never got under 13s...
...must be improving my launch technique.
What I want to know is that you had 11.87s with 350bhp....what are you doing with all those extra horses you have - or are they Shetlands
Maybe it is something to do with Elvington - I mean Harvey has had well over 400bhp most of the year - and IIRC he only just cracked 12.4s once at the practice day
Rannoch
PS You have just taken 0.05s of Stevens time - with that he would have beaten me
[Edited by Rannoch - 8/10/2003 4:51:40 PM]
08 October 2003, 05:17 PM
#281
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Carlos
I would say that Stevens 12.45 @ 118 is bang on the mark for 350 bhp
Trouts car however must need to go on a diet It should be 'much' faster especially with the Sti heads and cams running at 1.4 bar
Andy
I would say that Stevens 12.45 @ 118 is bang on the mark for 350 bhp
Trouts car however must need to go on a diet It should be 'much' faster especially with the Sti heads and cams running at 1.4 bar
Andy
But something which REALLY makes a big difference, especially when drag racing is weight, and AFAIK Trout's car is one of the few out there still with full weight, including air conditioning (uhmmmmmm P20SPD were is your air con
?????) so really should be giving Trout some top marks for his 60ft times (even when compared to the US DSM drag boys). My own car is fast probably not because of engine power but because it's weight is know below 1100kgs., in fact it should be close to the 1000 kgs. now that the protection bars inside the back doors have been removed, and that plexiglass has been used ont the back windows
..... and BTW although it is cheap to loose some weight at the begining at the end it starts to get more and more expensive, but guess what ? ..... it is faster and more realible Carlos H.
[Edited by carlos_hiraoka - 8/10/2003 5:19:09 PM]
14 October 2003, 12:27 PM
#282
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Hi Everyone,
Sorry for starting this one off again. I have MY98 uk turbo and i'm thinking of upgrading the car for more power, around 340bhp. These are the items I would be buying at present.
Injectors 550cc
Fuel pump and regulator
Turbo
Re-map by Power Engineering
The car has a full s/s decat exhaust,induction kit and prodrive intercooler y pipe and hoses. If this stage goes well further mods would be uprated TMIC or FMIC.
I have come across 2 turbo's in the for sale section which don't seem to get a mention in this thread
Turbo dynamics MD195
Power enterprise 1818
Are they too big for what I require (laggy)
Would they work with the proposed set up?
What maximum boost can you run with the standard TMIC (Occasionally driven hard on the road, will not go on track days etc)
Other turbo's that have been recommended to me are
VF35
VF34
TD05 F/E
MD304
Would the bigger turbo be a better choice because of the lower charge temp when using standard i/c. Then just live with a bit of lag? The only other Subaru I have driven was a MY96 UK Turbo which was a bit laggy but not too bad, would not want too much more than this though.
Thanks in advance
George
Sorry for starting this one off again. I have MY98 uk turbo and i'm thinking of upgrading the car for more power, around 340bhp. These are the items I would be buying at present.
Injectors 550cc
Fuel pump and regulator
Turbo
Re-map by Power Engineering
The car has a full s/s decat exhaust,induction kit and prodrive intercooler y pipe and hoses. If this stage goes well further mods would be uprated TMIC or FMIC.
I have come across 2 turbo's in the for sale section which don't seem to get a mention in this thread
Turbo dynamics MD195
Power enterprise 1818
Are they too big for what I require (laggy)
Would they work with the proposed set up?
What maximum boost can you run with the standard TMIC (Occasionally driven hard on the road, will not go on track days etc)
Other turbo's that have been recommended to me are
VF35
VF34
TD05 F/E
MD304
Would the bigger turbo be a better choice because of the lower charge temp when using standard i/c. Then just live with a bit of lag? The only other Subaru I have driven was a MY96 UK Turbo which was a bit laggy but not too bad, would not want too much more than this though.
Thanks in advance
George
14 October 2003, 12:32 PM
#283
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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MD195 is good.. probably a little big..
I believe the 1818 is the garrett hybrid.. probably a little laggy..
I have no real knowledge of the VF Series..
However having been in / driven an MD304 car.. I'd recommend that or the TD05
Like said above go for a drive in a car with one of these fitted.
David
I believe the 1818 is the garrett hybrid.. probably a little laggy..
I have no real knowledge of the VF Series..
However having been in / driven an MD304 car.. I'd recommend that or the TD05
Like said above go for a drive in a car with one of these fitted.
David
14 October 2003, 08:16 PM
#285
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that is probably similar english horses, to what I am running. I would guess I am at about 320bhp on star or power stations rollers.
what do you want to do with your car,back road basher,track,1/4's everything?
if you are just into road use , I would keep the tmic and consider the VF28 up to the larger VF23.with the right mods I would put these into the 280-300bhp. throw on a fmic and you should get into the 300-320 area but probably pushing them harder than a TD05 or MD304. I would put the TD05 and MD304 in the 320-340bhp area at star or ps but like everything you can push them harder and harder and get better results. these figures are only what I feel the sensible limits are without going daft although loads will probably disagree.
as above try and drive a few cars in different situations. my own feelings where that the MD304 was good in a straight line but I was not too keen on it in the twisties unless you really kept it on the boil. I found the TD05 nicer to live with but with headers I have lost a bit lower down.
, to what I am running. I would guess I am at about 320bhp on star or power stations rollers.what do you want to do with your car,back road basher,track,1/4's everything?
if you are just into road use , I would keep the tmic and consider the VF28 up to the larger VF23.with the right mods I would put these into the 280-300bhp. throw on a fmic and you should get into the 300-320 area but probably pushing them harder than a TD05 or MD304. I would put the TD05 and MD304 in the 320-340bhp area at star or ps but like everything you can push them harder and harder and get better results. these figures are only what I feel the sensible limits are without going daft although loads will probably disagree.
as above try and drive a few cars in different situations. my own feelings where that the MD304 was good in a straight line but I was not too keen on it in the twisties unless you really kept it on the boil. I found the TD05 nicer to live with but with headers I have lost a bit lower down.
15 October 2003, 01:58 PM
#288
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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LOL..
Sorry thought It was a garrett core..
Can we have the specs of it then, so I dont make the same mistake again..
David
Sorry thought It was a garrett core..
Can we have the specs of it then, so I dont make the same mistake again..
David
15 October 2003, 03:42 PM
#289
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It's a mule of a hybrid consisting of IHI, Hitachi and several other bits
R.
[Edited by tweenierob - 10/15/2003 3:43:19 PM]
16 October 2003, 10:05 PM
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tweenierob - to our knowledge, the cores aren't Garrett or at least not Garrett of recent. Otherwise their relative performance wouldn't lag behind those in the same power categorey.
