nom

?
Well, it's quite possible to go & talk to Andy as well! I'm not sure his knowledge of available turbos & their variations are quite as good as Lateral Performance's (who can, I imagine, pull on Turbo Dynamics' database/knowledge too, if needed...) but he appears to be able to supply a version of what might be suitable in this case, yes.
I haven't been following all the arguments myself (I get a bit bored when they all come personal rather than factual ) but I'm guessing that the surge problems with Andy's turbo have been circumvented now? In which case it may well be a viable alternative to be thrown into the soup
Harvey's turbo seems to give good results too.
APS, I think everyone is agreed on anyway

Through all this lot of info, I still don't trust most of the figures anyway. A 2deg declination of the road will increase your power by 5% & my guess is that most won't notice this angle (unless a power run is taken in both directions then another road found that actually is flat; having just eaten a Big Mac & not had a crap for the past 24 hours will reduce your power by 5%; rolling roads never agree with each other (although are of course excellent tools for comparing mods on the same car on the same day in the same weather...). About the only thing that gives real output is a dynamometer (sp?) which, of course, then can't be compared to anything else unless it also has been out of the car & on one as well .
Flat bit of road with 30-70 in 3rd sounds like a good measurement to me... think John used to do that, but because he was the only one, it was pretty meaningless
Wow that was a lot of drivel!

David_Wallis

also are andy and jack are your friends??


David


[Edited by David_Wallis - 7/8/2003 12:25:35 AM]

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

i have had very short conversations with Andy F twice at well lane and have never spoke to jack at ION

i would in no way consider them friends.......but would use their turbos as i have seen 1st hand what they can do.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Jonny can answer for himself on who his friends are but he sure does not know Jack but he does know his turbos produce the predicted bhp out the box.
This started with a guy in Warsaw wanting advice on how to get 400-420 bhp and being that far away it is fair to assume he wanted a proven solution and not to be a guinea pig.It would be unfair to recommend anything that was not proven as it would just lead to heartache and frustration.
Any recommendations to "speak to Mark at Lateral" are irrelevant and indeed duff advice. Two pages ago I asked how many 2.0 litre cars with Lateral turbos were currently producing a PROVEN 400 + bhp. David W. gave examples of Steve McCulloch;he did produce 408bhp at Well Lane but this is NOT a Lateral turbo.The other example was Alan G. He is on his third turbo from Lateral having been a guinea pig over a frustrating period of around 9mths when the turbos supplied did not come up to expectation and as well as changing turbos, other changes were made at Lateral's behest.Alan states he now has 390 bhp with prospects of more.
So making recommendations "to speak to Mark", no matter how much of a friend he is, are ill judged when someone wants a 400 + PROVEN solution. The Andy Forrest turbos are proven at this level as are the Ion Turbos.
Reference was made to Turbo Dynamics and their data base. T.D. are suppliers of turbos to Lateral. During the problems with Alan G., Aigan arranged for a turbo to be sent to Alan entirely to T.D.'s spec. without input from Aigan and it was a complete disaster and that is accepted by the parties involved.

I had one bad experience of dealing with T.D. and will never use them again. They were sent my turbo, against my better judgement, for replacement of the W.G. actuator spindle with specific instruction not to do anything else. The turbo was openned up fully and examined and even worse, I was receiving phone calls from people Aigan had been in touch with, telling me that Aigan and Turbo Dynamics were discussing the spec of my turbo and this was even before I had been told the findings of the WG spindle problem.
At some other time they sent me a machined turbine housing belonging to one of their customers.
Toally unprofesional, incompetant and a few other adjectives spring to mind.

Jonny highlighted a Lateral Turbo on a 2.5l car that was supposed to do 500 bhp but as yet has not proven anything approaching that. The reason why would be very interesting and perhaps we will be told in the fullness of time.

So forgive me if I highlight the truth and give honest proven advice to a fellow Scoobynutter in Poland but I am trying to save him grief that some others have experienced.

David W. I assume your part built engine is under going some form of re-manufacture. How many more of the big capacity engines need rectification work? Good luck in having it complete for T.O.T.B. on 3rd August? A 600 bhp Scooby will be a big crowd puller.

David_Wallis

Harvey,

Fair enough.. You have your turbo suppliers and I have mine, If any could have provided me with a turbo that could do what I wanted then I would have bought it.. If ION could have come up with what I wanted then I would have bought it..


What part of the above do you need explaining?? The Lateral turbo produced the power.. (circa 4k revs) shame the block couldnt take it.. (nothing to do with lateral though)

I have been in the process of building this engine since feb. this year.. on and off.. Im not going to rush it.. and certainly not going to push it until its run in.. my engine is not undergoing anywork at the moment.. its waiting for some parts / decisions from me.. the pistons are back from being machined (Reduce CR - MY choice.. no one elses) and ready to go in, which will be done as soon as he has time available.. I cant just jump to the front of the queue

I dont know whether I will be ready in time.. as I have to shim the engine, still need to do fueling, IC, Mapping, and bodywork.. and sort a Fooking Bonnet [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

I'll let you know about the 600bhp scoob if and when I get there.


David

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Erm - I've skimmed the thread

Doesnt Bob have a proven 465bhp and states another 30ish with the ap22 meter

I dont have a proven 400bhp - just a rolling road run on a given day

FYI the turbo is specced at 420bhp and if I tinkered with say the headers and water injection - I expect it would top out at this level

To put the matter straight it is not a Lateral or Bob Turbo. Its a VF22 md195 - from Turbo dynamics - I got the base unit and had it modded as a nice bolt on turbo - fairly laggy, to say that its small but its good enough

However, as some of you are aware as I've gone intenal - supposed 8.5/1 compression, with Omega piston, Arrow rods, etc the car will not stay in this state of tune much longer

As I'm gonna put on different headers (currently only ported), change the air filter and get a different turbo - have not decided yet - which ever is minimal hassle but where I'm not being ripped off!...........

As far as the 400-420bhp goes that would be fairly easy with a reasonable turbo - As Bob has got the Garrett Hybrid with over 465 its safe to say that if someone wants reasonable power they should go for this may be? or Harvey's turbo

I cant see you getting much over 400bhp with 550cc injectors, especially without a fuel pressure regulator... alos you need to running more boost to get the power

My 400+ was at 1.65 bar held, although it holds slightly more than this on the road and Bobs peaked at 2.1bar to achieve the 465bhp

David_Wallis

andy,

these are petrol engines we are discussing..

What fuel pressure were you running on your 550's??

David

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

for people not in the know, Andy is not using pump fuel.

It would be good to see results using 97ron petrol.

[Edited by ChristianR - 7/8/2003 2:10:31 PM]

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Andy

Ok, ok

Is the boost a function then of the turbo....if you'd got to the limits on ignition

To get the same sort of power on the Cossies, to go for less lag you always had to run ridiculous boost at the top end

You've had plenty of time to tinker - and its hardly a std set up..

So I can have a turbo that will achieve circa 450-500bhp at say reasonable boost with little lag? - as with yours? - now if you can get one, fit to my car and map.......... and give me this result.....
What fuel is this on?

Interesting that you were fine with the 550's - The duty rate will be up in the 90's with the 740's once I've put the extras on...? send me a mail!

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Andy

Ok, ok

Is the boost a function then of the turbo....if you'd got to the limits on ignition

To get the same sort of power on the Cossies, to go for less lag you always had to run ridiculous boost at the top end

You've had plenty of time to tinker - and its hardly a std set up..

So I can have a turbo that will achieve circa 450-500bhp at say reasonable boost with little lag? - as with yours? - now if you can get one, fit to my car and map.......... and give me this result.....
What fuel is this on?

Interesting that you were fine with the 550's - The duty rate will be up in the 90's with the 740's once I've put the extras on...? send me a mail!

David_Wallis

oi christian, I was picking that flaw..

eitherway its still good for a std position turbo.. would like to see it with 2 bar at 3k though

Should be impressive :O = bent rods ?

David

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

So come on then.............. what fuel is Andy using???

David_Wallis

Scottish Special Brew.

David

Andy.F

Steve

I'll mail you later, I'm at work just now

Andy

EvilBevel

I wonder if our Polish friend might find all this a bit confusing ?

marcin@klubsubaru.pl

No, that's actually still pretty cool...
We've got similar discussions on our forums too
And many of those comments are helpful, even if sometimes a bit oftopic.

R19KET

Andy,

On a serious note, what power gain would you estimate the 2lts of Methanol is worth ? Do you know what it raises the octane rating to, and how many degrees of advance was it worth.

There were substantial power gains using NF on Adams engine. Think it allowed between 4, and 6 degrees more advance.

Comparing the price of methanol, it may be a better way to go, just relatively bulky to carry around, compared to NF.

Mark.

Andy.F

Approx the same gain in timing as with the NF although there is the added complication of the change in mixture ie weaker AFR.
If mapped 'safe' on plain optimax the 2ltrs/tank will increase AFR by approx 0.5 ratios in my experience.

Andy.F

Chris, I'm not sure if you are referring to my car in your post however I can tell you that it is possible to have a bigger, more efficient turbo which spools early and makes good power. John Banks has some 'before and after' deltadyno runs with a std (small)TD04 and a 400+ bhp hybrid on the same year of car, the big turbo is ahead of the std one on power throughout the rpm range.
I'm sure 'Blade' on MLR has a turbo capable of excellent bottom end torque and top end power. Adam M's 2.5 is another example of where a big turbo does not necessarily mean it will lack bottom end response.

Andy

C

Andy - who said I considered 440bhp "high powered"

Chris (with wooden spoon in hand)

Andy.F

Point taken Chris

nom

Adam's might spool up low down, but I'm not sure it's going to have the 'driveability' of a small turbo - an increase of 300bhp within 500rpm?
Some nasty smells coming from the tyres, I reckon.
And quite possibly from the driver too

marcin@klubsubaru.pl

So, it looks like I didn't pray hard enough
The gearbox is gone. I wanted to practice the 1-2 change with almost full throttle and "bang" - no second gear.
I wonder how much stronger the box from P1 is?

kidmark555

Marcin,
you should definately go for JDM STI 5 speed gearbox: ver 4,5 or 6.
This should be enough to handle up to 340-350 PS and over 400 Nm. But don't expect this to survive 420 PS you are heading to. In long term of course.

I thought you fitted WRX gearbox recently. Is it the one that went bang? What torque do you have right now?

cheers,

Marek

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

it is the same ?

kidmark555

No, he has (or rather had) 2001 European Wrx gearbox. It's too weak for this sort of power. I have about 270 PS on similar gearbox and wouldn't stretch it further. It's reliable but only as long as you keep it below 280 PS/ 380 Nm.

marcin@klubsubaru.pl

The one that went bang was the original '99 turbo, never opened before
Now, the P1 box is I think similar to STi ver 5/6 with longer final drive.
Haven't been to the dyno yet - will go there once I have the new turbo fitted.

Andy.F

Sti 5/6 is a stronger box. Bob and Harvey are both running over 450bhp through this type of box.

Fangoria

iTrader: (1)

Andy

So just to confirm - you put in 2 litres of Methanol - where can you get this - isnt this just windscreen cleaner? - where can you get bucket loads cheap!

Are you saying that the car needs remap running with it then? compared to NF with Optimax

AndrewC

Funny this should come up today, I was re-reading this thread only this morning.

Andrew...