Unmarked Police cars
20 June 2003, 11:03 AM
#31
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I think you are just bored again Mycroft, nothing better to do than try and disrupt yet another thread!
###
I did say you were being irrational, but you started this off... you took us off topic and now accuse me of disrupting a thread... now that is REALLY funny...
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 11:04:17]
I think you are just bored again Mycroft, nothing better to do than try and disrupt yet another thread!
###
I did say you were being irrational, but you started this off... you took us off topic and now accuse me of disrupting a thread... now that is REALLY funny...
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 11:04:17]
20 June 2003, 11:07 AM
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Medders, why didn't you post that as your first reply? Still doesn't answer my question though. Which basicaly was do you think the road would be safer if all the police cars on them were marked up.
20 June 2003, 11:08 AM
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Glad I made you laugh Mycroft 
OK back on topic - unmarked police cars - Chaz depends on what sort of crimes you think they will/will not deter. I am constantly on the lookout out for them whilst motorway driving, I feel I need to be more aware of them - than a marked car. Most people will adjust their driving to comply if they see a marked car. As soon as it's out of sight - they adjust back to their normal style of driving.
OK back on topic - unmarked police cars - Chaz depends on what sort of crimes you think they will/will not deter. I am constantly on the lookout out for them whilst motorway driving, I feel I need to be more aware of them - than a marked car. Most people will adjust their driving to comply if they see a marked car. As soon as it's out of sight - they adjust back to their normal style of driving.
20 June 2003, 11:21 AM
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More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.
Police are at present under-manned and not brilliantly well paid. You'd need a vast increase in numbers of police and in cars purchased for Traffic for this to be viable.
What would you consider to be a valid ratio? One marked police car per 10 miles of motorway?
Police are at present under-manned and not brilliantly well paid. You'd need a vast increase in numbers of police and in cars purchased for Traffic for this to be viable.
What would you consider to be a valid ratio? One marked police car per 10 miles of motorway?
20 June 2003, 11:22 AM
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Another valid argument for the unmarked car. Take stolen cars for instance, the thieves catch sight of a marked car in their rear view mirror – they are off – could evolve into a high-speed chase, putting lives in danger. An unmarked car has far more chance of catching the twoc’ers as they are far less conspicuous and can follow the stolen car without arousing suspicion and take the thieves by surprise.
20 June 2003, 11:28 AM
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I am constantly on the lookout out for them whilst motorway driving, I feel I need to be more aware of them- than a marked car.
###
If you are not speeding and not doing anything wrong why do you feel the need to be so aware of them, if you are a law abiding driver they are of no concern , surely?
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Most people will adjust their driving to comply if they see a marked car. As soon as it's out of sight - they adjust back to their normal style of driving.
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An unmarked car will not prevent the small minority who are not thinking ahead like the 'average' driver, the only way to prevent this type of driver is not by stealth, but by an overt presence, the only value of 'stealth' is to develeope the 'fear' you so perfectly exemplified in the following... 'I feel I need to be more aware of them- than a marked car' So stealth by your ownn admission is part of an almost 'psychological battle' to influence the average driver... I and many others resent that strongly...
Redkop, I genuinely thank you for that post... it reveals the reality of the present situation regarding Policing than I could ever have hoped for. :thumbsup
I am constantly on the lookout out for them whilst motorway driving, I feel I need to be more aware of them- than a marked car.
###
If you are not speeding and not doing anything wrong why do you feel the need to be so aware of them, if you are a law abiding driver they are of no concern , surely?
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Most people will adjust their driving to comply if they see a marked car. As soon as it's out of sight - they adjust back to their normal style of driving.
###
An unmarked car will not prevent the small minority who are not thinking ahead like the 'average' driver, the only way to prevent this type of driver is not by stealth, but by an overt presence, the only value of 'stealth' is to develeope the 'fear' you so perfectly exemplified in the following... 'I feel I need to be more aware of them- than a marked car' So stealth by your ownn admission is part of an almost 'psychological battle' to influence the average driver... I and many others resent that strongly...
Redkop, I genuinely thank you for that post... it reveals the reality of the present situation regarding Policing than I could ever have hoped for. :thumbsup
20 June 2003, 11:32 AM
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"Police are at present under-manned and not brilliantly well paid"
I'll agree that there are not enough police and we need to recruit more of them, perhpas utilising a two tier system.
However in terms of public sector workers they are paid far too much IMHO. In many cases their lack of training and professionalism could be matched by a security guard fresh from a training course. Of course all of this is just my opinion which no doubt police/families of police/those with a vested interest will shout down. Do yu really think that the Police are worth more than say a Nurse? There is a huge disparity in pay between these roles and I regard healthcare as a far more important social force than the Govt's enforcers.
I'll agree that there are not enough police and we need to recruit more of them, perhpas utilising a two tier system.
However in terms of public sector workers they are paid far too much IMHO. In many cases their lack of training and professionalism could be matched by a security guard fresh from a training course. Of course all of this is just my opinion which no doubt police/families of police/those with a vested interest will shout down. Do yu really think that the Police are worth more than say a Nurse? There is a huge disparity in pay between these roles and I regard healthcare as a far more important social force than the Govt's enforcers.
20 June 2003, 11:33 AM
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Maybe Mycroft the ever intelligent 
will work out the UBB code for quoting. 
Maybe those who have so much to shout about against the police force ought to step inside their shoes and do some voluntary work experience with a force local to them.
will work out the UBB code for quoting. Maybe those who have so much to shout about against the police force ought to step inside their shoes and do some voluntary work experience with a force local to them.
20 June 2003, 11:36 AM
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More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.
###
Simple paint job, not a lot of money...
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Another valid argument for the unmarked car. Take stolen cars for instance, the thieves catch sight of a marked car in their rear view mirror – they are off – could evolve into a high-speed chase, putting lives in danger. An unmarked car has far more chance of catching the twoc’ers as they are far less conspicuous and can follow the stolen car without arousing suspicion and take the thieves by surprise.
###
It would be valid if it were true... sadly it is not, all pursuits should be lead by a marked Police vehicle it may make the difference in people seeing it and moving out of the way in time
The Police in this Country have the unenviable reputation of being the only force in the World that believes its best to chase down others on Public roads whilst screaming blue murder if anyone does the same speeds on a deserted M'way.. hahaha
More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.
###
Simple paint job, not a lot of money...
###
Another valid argument for the unmarked car. Take stolen cars for instance, the thieves catch sight of a marked car in their rear view mirror – they are off – could evolve into a high-speed chase, putting lives in danger. An unmarked car has far more chance of catching the twoc’ers as they are far less conspicuous and can follow the stolen car without arousing suspicion and take the thieves by surprise.
###
It would be valid if it were true... sadly it is not, all pursuits should be lead by a marked Police vehicle it may make the difference in people seeing it and moving out of the way in time
The Police in this Country have the unenviable reputation of being the only force in the World that believes its best to chase down others on Public roads whilst screaming blue murder if anyone does the same speeds on a deserted M'way.. hahaha
20 June 2003, 11:38 AM
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NACRO - I personally think that all those sort of people should be paid comensurate with what they are worth.
It sickens me that someone who kicks a piece of leather around a field can earn more in a week than a nurse or police in 6 months.
(Here come the "But you have to train hard and become one of the best to get that sort of money in football" brigade. To which I say Whoop-de-doo...they kick leather round a field...the world can't survive without it... )
It sickens me that someone who kicks a piece of leather around a field can earn more in a week than a nurse or police in 6 months.
(Here come the "But you have to train hard and become one of the best to get that sort of money in football" brigade. To which I say Whoop-de-doo...they kick leather round a field...the world can't survive without it...
)
20 June 2003, 11:40 AM
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###More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.###
Simple paint job, not a lot of money...
Uh...Mycroft? They have to BUY the cars first.. They don't have a glut of unmarked cars just sitting around waiting for their chance to go on the road, you know.
20 June 2003, 11:42 AM
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Mice
More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.
I didn't say more marked cars, I suggested turning the un-marked ones into marked ones.
Doesn't anyone read anything before they jump in?
More marked cars = a need for more money in the police forces = more tax rises.
I didn't say more marked cars, I suggested turning the un-marked ones into marked ones.
Doesn't anyone read anything before they jump in?
20 June 2003, 11:43 AM
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Mice elf... the thread title is unmarked cars and the point has been raised that perhaps that resource might be better used... read the text, there's a dear, it will make for a more intelligent posting from you next time
20 June 2003, 11:45 AM
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If you are not speeding and not doing anything wrong why do you feel the need to be so aware of them, if you are a law abiding driver they are of no concern , surely?
What percentage do you think fall into the category of 'law abiding drivers' How many never actually infringe the law at some point on the road?
20 June 2003, 11:49 AM
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How many never actually infringe the law at some point on the road?
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Redkop, you are wonderful! I could get to like you lots... but to answer you, we all do, and that is the point! The number of petty laws being upheld by the Police means that we are sitting ducks and feel aggrieved that it is just 'luck' that dictates your livelyhood not being impinged... again you eloquently articulate the seething resentment of so many and again I thank you for your input...
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 11:51:46]
How many never actually infringe the law at some point on the road?
###
Redkop, you are wonderful! I could get to like you lots... but to answer you, we all do, and that is the point! The number of petty laws being upheld by the Police means that we are sitting ducks and feel aggrieved that it is just 'luck' that dictates your livelyhood not being impinged... again you eloquently articulate the seething resentment of so many and again I thank you for your input...
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 11:51:46]
20 June 2003, 11:52 AM
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Patronising though you may be, it still doesn't negate the fact that there are not enough unmarked cars to do that with. The ones they have are used in various operations that require an unmarked car.
Painting those up to match the marked ones would be at the deficit to those particular operations that require unmarked cars.
Painting those up to match the marked ones would be at the deficit to those particular operations that require unmarked cars.
20 June 2003, 11:54 AM
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crikey - popped away for a minute and its gone mental.
chaz - we dont have many unmarked police cars at all and they dont go out all the time. We dont have many marked traffic cars either though, so taking everything into account, statistically, it probably would be a minute amount safer if our unmarked car was marked, it in reality there are so few marked or unmarked what percentage of offences do they actually deter ? A minute percentage.
Obviously it would be better if people didn't do "stuff" and if we can stop it happening then fantastic. The reality is as soon as we go elsewhere the "stuff" starts happening again, so realistically what has been achieved? And whos to say there would have been any noteable effect by the instance when the police car stopped the guy from driving badly. Whos to say the same offence stopped from happening at that instant wouldnt happen when the police had gone and there was some bad outcome then ?
You really cant measure this stuff.
I must say that you attitude towards redkops daughter is a disgrace mate.
If you think its ok for a young woman to be assaulted, spat on and abused then I'm disappointed in you.
most people dont expect the level of agression they can be faced with doing the job, and it certainly should never be "expected"
A sad reflection of the way society is going in this country ?
But thats another topic.
Paul
chaz - we dont have many unmarked police cars at all and they dont go out all the time. We dont have many marked traffic cars either though, so taking everything into account, statistically, it probably would be a minute amount safer if our unmarked car was marked, it in reality there are so few marked or unmarked what percentage of offences do they actually deter ? A minute percentage.
Obviously it would be better if people didn't do "stuff" and if we can stop it happening then fantastic. The reality is as soon as we go elsewhere the "stuff" starts happening again, so realistically what has been achieved? And whos to say there would have been any noteable effect by the instance when the police car stopped the guy from driving badly. Whos to say the same offence stopped from happening at that instant wouldnt happen when the police had gone and there was some bad outcome then ?
You really cant measure this stuff.
I must say that you attitude towards redkops daughter is a disgrace mate.
If you think its ok for a young woman to be assaulted, spat on and abused then I'm disappointed in you.
most people dont expect the level of agression they can be faced with doing the job, and it certainly should never be "expected"
A sad reflection of the way society is going in this country ?
But thats another topic.
Paul
20 June 2003, 11:56 AM
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Have to say that having marked cars makes sense to me for the policing of traffic. The point right at the start that prevention is better than cure could be the "be all and end all" when traffic violations are being considered.
For some policing jobs, covert ops are necessary to catch the perp and take them off the streets- drug dealing leaps straight to my mind after seeing a programme a few weeks back about crime in the west end. For this, I can fully see why the police need to be able to use unmarked cars.
There again, traffic is now high priority due to the number of deaths on our roads which far outnumbers murders... If an unmarked car stops someone who is drunk, driving without a license, uninsured or whatever and takes the driver off the roads then it's got to be a good thing.
Like almost every good debate on scoobynet, there are two sides to the story and it isn't a simple yes/no, there needs to be consideration of all aspects. Frustrating
...and I've been accused of superficial thinking as a mod
Cheers,
Nick.
For some policing jobs, covert ops are necessary to catch the perp and take them off the streets- drug dealing leaps straight to my mind after seeing a programme a few weeks back about crime in the west end. For this, I can fully see why the police need to be able to use unmarked cars.
There again, traffic is now high priority due to the number of deaths on our roads which far outnumbers murders... If an unmarked car stops someone who is drunk, driving without a license, uninsured or whatever and takes the driver off the roads then it's got to be a good thing.
Like almost every good debate on scoobynet, there are two sides to the story and it isn't a simple yes/no, there needs to be consideration of all aspects. Frustrating
...and I've been accused of superficial thinking as a mod
Cheers,
Nick.
20 June 2003, 12:05 PM
#53
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Have to say that having marked cars makes sense to me for the policing of traffic.
###
Sensible
###
For some policing jobs, covert ops are necessary to catch the perp and take them off the streets- drug dealing leaps straight to my mind after seeing a programme a few weeks back about crime in the west end. For this, I can fully see why the police need to be able to use unmarked cars.
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Hire cars, the US drugs busters use hire cars, they are not as easily tracked down as the quite well known un-marked cars were too easily spotted. The Chicago PD found is was cheaper too!
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There again, traffic is now high priority due to the number of deaths on our roads which far outnumbers murders... If an unmarked car stops someone who is drunk, driving without a license, uninsured or whatever and takes the driver off the roads then it's got to be a good thing.
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A drunk is as likely to be caught by a marked car as an un-marked one... they're drunk you see!
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...and I've been accused of superficial thinking as a mod
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See above... hahaha
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 12:06:33]
Have to say that having marked cars makes sense to me for the policing of traffic.
###
Sensible
###
For some policing jobs, covert ops are necessary to catch the perp and take them off the streets- drug dealing leaps straight to my mind after seeing a programme a few weeks back about crime in the west end. For this, I can fully see why the police need to be able to use unmarked cars.
###
Hire cars, the US drugs busters use hire cars, they are not as easily tracked down as the quite well known un-marked cars were too easily spotted. The Chicago PD found is was cheaper too!
###
There again, traffic is now high priority due to the number of deaths on our roads which far outnumbers murders... If an unmarked car stops someone who is drunk, driving without a license, uninsured or whatever and takes the driver off the roads then it's got to be a good thing.
###
A drunk is as likely to be caught by a marked car as an un-marked one... they're drunk you see!
###
...and I've been accused of superficial thinking as a mod
###
See above... hahaha
[Edited by Mycroft - 20/06/2003 12:06:33]
20 June 2003, 12:28 PM
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A few years ago I was 'chased' by an unmarked police car on my m/bike 
I noticed that a large dark car had pulled out of a side road and had rapidly cought up with me. It was sitting behind me with its full beam on, no blues or twos. I kept within the speed limit and the car continued to follow me but now flashing its full beam. This continued for say a minutes or so. At this point I was a bit angry, unsure and scared all in one.
I could just make out two men as the drivers but that was about it. Never having had any attention from the Police before I had no reason to suspect this was an unmarked Police. I decided that I would 'loose' these clowns (for late night clowns looking for a race is what I thought they were) near my house.
The car continued to chase me (the m/bike was only a 175 trail bike)but I soon reached home and nipped up a narrow allyway, over a path and onto some grass land. Unfortunately the car decided it would follow me and flew down the ally, mounted the pavement nearly killing my neighbour who was walking her dog, tried to ram me, missed, crossed over another grass and paved section, bumped up and down a few kerbs, up another alley way, flew round a corner and then lost control on grass smashing into some anti-traffic bollards which I nipped through
I made it away round the corner and parked the bike up at my front door as usual. About 10 mins later a 'marked' Police van and the unmarked car turned up at my door (PNC I suppose). The unmarked Police chapped the door first, went throught all the usual stuff re me being the owner etc and thentried to charge me with speeding, reckless, failing to stop etc. At this point my mother and father became involved (I had briefly told them what happened) and the unmarked Police threatened to charge them with breach in their own home, sheesh Next a few of my neighbours appeared wanting to know who had been driving on the pavement, making all the noise and driving up the ally etc.
The marked van officers after hearing what happened decided this was 'way' to much and told the unmarked Police they were 'on their own on this one'.
They soon decided that they had totally mucked up and started the old good cop bad cop routine (which didnt wash) with both myself and my parents. At this point my mother was on the phone to the local HQ demanding to speak to whoever was in charge of these muppets.
Anyway, after chasing me, nearly causing me to crash (it was wet, trying to ram me (attempted murder?), nearly killing my neighbour and her dog and verbally abusing my family the excuse was........
that they saw me driving 'late at night' (11.15 pm coming back from my GF) and 'decided' that my m/bike 'might' be stolen.
So they risked killing me just in case the bike 'might' be stolen. And what did I get, yup an appology from them in person in front of their Super, well thank you for that at least. I loved watching them turn bight red as they nearly choked saying it
And what has this to do with unmarked cars, well I would have noticed the car was a Police car and would have stopped.
Personally I'd ban all unmarked cars, I just dont 'see' that they can do 'that' much good over a marked car TBO, and I see them chasing and pulling in speeders every week up here btw. I actually thought that was their main purpose tbo, revenue raisers, but then the roads I usually see them on dont have any cameras.
I noticed that a large dark car had pulled out of a side road and had rapidly cought up with me. It was sitting behind me with its full beam on, no blues or twos. I kept within the speed limit and the car continued to follow me but now flashing its full beam. This continued for say a minutes or so. At this point I was a bit angry, unsure and scared all in one.
I could just make out two men as the drivers but that was about it. Never having had any attention from the Police before I had no reason to suspect this was an unmarked Police. I decided that I would 'loose' these clowns (for late night clowns looking for a race is what I thought they were) near my house.
The car continued to chase me (the m/bike was only a 175 trail bike)but I soon reached home and nipped up a narrow allyway, over a path and onto some grass land. Unfortunately the car decided it would follow me and flew down the ally, mounted the pavement nearly killing my neighbour who was walking her dog, tried to ram me, missed, crossed over another grass and paved section, bumped up and down a few kerbs, up another alley way, flew round a corner and then lost control on grass smashing into some anti-traffic bollards which I nipped through
I made it away round the corner and parked the bike up at my front door as usual. About 10 mins later a 'marked' Police van and the unmarked car turned up at my door (PNC I suppose). The unmarked Police chapped the door first, went throught all the usual stuff re me being the owner etc and thentried to charge me with speeding, reckless, failing to stop etc. At this point my mother and father became involved (I had briefly told them what happened) and the unmarked Police threatened to charge them with breach in their own home, sheesh
Next a few of my neighbours appeared wanting to know who had been driving on the pavement, making all the noise and driving up the ally etc. The marked van officers after hearing what happened decided this was 'way' to much and told the unmarked Police they were 'on their own on this one'.
They soon decided that they had totally mucked up and started the old good cop bad cop routine (which didnt wash) with both myself and my parents. At this point my mother was on the phone to the local HQ demanding to speak to whoever was in charge of these muppets.
Anyway, after chasing me, nearly causing me to crash (it was wet, trying to ram me (attempted murder?), nearly killing my neighbour and her dog and verbally abusing my family the excuse was........
that they saw me driving 'late at night' (11.15 pm coming back from my GF) and 'decided' that my m/bike 'might' be stolen.
So they risked killing me just in case the bike 'might' be stolen. And what did I get, yup an appology from them in person in front of their Super, well thank you for that at least. I loved watching them turn bight red as they nearly choked saying it
And what has this to do with unmarked cars, well I would have noticed the car was a Police car and would have stopped.
Personally I'd ban all unmarked cars, I just dont 'see' that they can do 'that' much good over a marked car TBO, and I see them chasing and pulling in speeders every week up here btw. I actually thought that was their main purpose tbo, revenue raisers, but then the roads I usually see them on dont have any cameras.
20 June 2003, 12:31 PM
#56
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If you think its ok for a young woman to be assaulted, spat on and abused then I'm disappointed in you.
I don't think I said that. All I meant was that if other before you in your chosen proffesion had received this treatment then it is likely that you will too. I'm not condoning this behavour. Simply pointing out that you cannot complain that it was unexpected.
On a different tack, it would be a bit like me trying to run by business and crying every time a distributor was out of stock. It's gonna happen, live with it.
I don't think I said that. All I meant was that if other before you in your chosen proffesion had received this treatment then it is likely that you will too. I'm not condoning this behavour. Simply pointing out that you cannot complain that it was unexpected.
On a different tack, it would be a bit like me trying to run by business and crying every time a distributor was out of stock. It's gonna happen, live with it.