Talk about not 'getting it'
06 June 2003, 12:30 PM
#31
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Drive an Integra R - you can get power oversteer, albeit not by the driven wheels spinning and breaking traction as in RWD or 4WD and not from a standstill
The front end on the VTS used to hold on a lot longer than the scooby so I'd expect the CTR to be the same
06 June 2003, 12:59 PM
#32
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Overster in a CTR is possible, ask anyone who saw me at knockhill, sideways into duffus was amusing 
also snap oversteer at clarks at about 60mph, ended up looking at the grandstand but managed to hold it 
Although mine is lowered about 50mm on coilovers which were as hard as i could set them.
Soften up the back end, nah
also snap oversteer at clarks at about 60mph, ended up looking at the grandstand but managed to hold it Although mine is lowered about 50mm on coilovers which were as hard as i could set them.
Soften up the back end, nah
06 June 2003, 01:10 PM
#34
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thing to remember about VTEC engines is they are 'racy' in nature...they are enthusiasts cars when all is said and done
I sold my M3 because it bored me.....you could stick it in 4th and drive it like and auto....where is the fun in that?
I sold my M3 because it bored me.....you could stick it in 4th and drive it like and auto....where is the fun in that?
06 June 2003, 01:59 PM
#35
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Kenny, you're thinking of low speed power oversteer caused by the rear wheels braking traction due to the driven force through them.
I'm talking about oversteer due to lateral grip/vehicle dynamics/weight balance/geometry settings at higher speed and under power.
Sorry, can't give you a technical reason without some research and I don't have time at the moment.
D
I'm talking about oversteer due to lateral grip/vehicle dynamics/weight balance/geometry settings at higher speed and under power.
Sorry, can't give you a technical reason without some research and I don't have time at the moment.
D
06 June 2003, 02:02 PM
#36
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Oh ok, but ultimately its physics that does the oversteer in those situations and not the excess power to the wheels as excess power to the wheels in a FWD would cause the front end to wash out.
Its a bit like the Noble. Apparently it will oversteer under power (obviously) but will also oversteer if you throw it into a corner too fast. In effect you'd have to be on a mission to produce understeer!!
Its a bit like the Noble. Apparently it will oversteer under power (obviously) but will also oversteer if you throw it into a corner too fast. In effect you'd have to be on a mission to produce understeer!!
06 June 2003, 03:39 PM
#39
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if your rev range is say 1K to 9K then I would say a power band of 3K ain't THAT much.
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)
Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that the CTR is flippin ugly. I'd much rather have an old style civic type R (mm much faster too I think), or an integra
[Edited by juan - 6/6/2003 3:42:29 PM]
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)
Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that the CTR is flippin ugly. I'd much rather have an old style civic type R (mm much faster too I think), or an integra
[Edited by juan - 6/6/2003 3:42:29 PM]
06 June 2003, 03:56 PM
#41
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TurboMan
I had the E36 M3 Evolution Coupe and blowing off other cars was a big laugh I must admit....most Scoobs were not competitive in a dual carriage way situation
Stonking motor that straight six
I had the E36 M3 Evolution Coupe and blowing off other cars was a big laugh I must admit....most Scoobs were not competitive in a dual carriage way situation
Stonking motor that straight six
06 June 2003, 06:11 PM
#42
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Many Humbug Returns:
================================================== ==================
"He doesn't need to know anything about the engineering in order to review the car."
================================================== ==================
To have a valid opinion - you need to be aware of the facts to make that opinion valid. It doesnt matter if you write it down on paper,
record it for TV broadcast or post a review on the internet, you have to KNOW what you are talking about. And that clueless dolt
clearly doesnt.
================================================== ==================
"In case you didn't realise, cars are for driving, and the reviewer is reviewing the overall driving experience, which is a valid task that he carries out accurately. It is not a sterile anorak's discussion of the technical merits of athe 2 litre VTEC thank God.
All in all, a well balanced, sensitive review IMHO."
================================================== ===================
A well balanced review? He talked down the C-TR because the guy wanted massive muscle car torque, Lamborghini supercar performance, great comfort & low NVH levels of a Mercedes Maybach from a £20'000 hot road going homologated race car!
Performance car enthusiasts did not rate the Ferrari F355 and the air cooled 911's for its level of ride comfort or road noise levels.
Neither were cars such as the Sierra RS-Cosworth, BMW E30 M3 were loved for their road manners and refinement.
Further evidence of a clueless dikwit
================================================== =================
"Honda say it's a "lean, mean and focused road going race car".
I say it's a noisy, nippy shopping car that handles."
================================================== =================
Honda have been building high performance vehicles for road and motorsport with lower displacement for decades. In fact the vast majority of high performance vehicles WERE built for motorsports, and they were very successful with it. But I suppose some "bloke" with a keyboard and a subscription to Freeserve who drives an Astra GTE when he was 19 knows better. I suppose Honda should abandon their 30 years of experience and hire this goon as a consultant and have him show how them road legal race cars are done.
================================================== ==================
"He doesn't need to know anything about the engineering in order to review the car."
================================================== ==================
To have a valid opinion - you need to be aware of the facts to make that opinion valid. It doesnt matter if you write it down on paper,
record it for TV broadcast or post a review on the internet, you have to KNOW what you are talking about. And that clueless dolt
clearly doesnt.
================================================== ==================
"In case you didn't realise, cars are for driving, and the reviewer is reviewing the overall driving experience, which is a valid task that he carries out accurately. It is not a sterile anorak's discussion of the technical merits of athe 2 litre VTEC thank God.
All in all, a well balanced, sensitive review IMHO."
================================================== ===================
A well balanced review? He talked down the C-TR because the guy wanted massive muscle car torque, Lamborghini supercar performance, great comfort & low NVH levels of a Mercedes Maybach from a £20'000 hot road going homologated race car!
Performance car enthusiasts did not rate the Ferrari F355 and the air cooled 911's for its level of ride comfort or road noise levels.
Neither were cars such as the Sierra RS-Cosworth, BMW E30 M3 were loved for their road manners and refinement.
Further evidence of a clueless dikwit
================================================== =================
"Honda say it's a "lean, mean and focused road going race car".
I say it's a noisy, nippy shopping car that handles."
================================================== =================
Honda have been building high performance vehicles for road and motorsport with lower displacement for decades. In fact the vast majority of high performance vehicles WERE built for motorsports, and they were very successful with it. But I suppose some "bloke" with a keyboard and a subscription to Freeserve who drives an Astra GTE when he was 19 knows better. I suppose Honda should abandon their 30 years of experience and hire this goon as a consultant and have him show how them road legal race cars are done.
06 June 2003, 06:19 PM
#43
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You may not know the precise ingredients, nor technique the chef uses at your favourite reastaurant when he prepares your your favourite dish, but I'm sure you feel qualified to review it, and are very capable of doing so.
Same with cars or anything else for that matter.
Same with cars or anything else for that matter.
06 June 2003, 06:27 PM
#45
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juan:
================================================== ====================
"if your rev range is say 1K to 9K then I would say a power band of 3K ain't THAT much.
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)"
================================================== ====================
Yes, relatively speaking but completely artificial to have any sense in reality.
How many 1.8 - 2.5 litre cars will be making more than 151 ft/lbs of torque at idle?
A Viper 8 litre V10 makes more torque at idle than a Ferrari F355 does at peak, but that wouldnt worry a 355 driver since he will be concerned with the torque it is making at higher RPM's where the horsepower will be found.
Race cars adopt large diameter valve and ports, high lift cam profiles in favour for more torque at higher RPMs. You'd be lucky to
launch the damn things on idle unless using half throttle or more.
Nevertheless, thanks to VTEC, all of the Honda performance cars make enough torque at lower RPMs and behave exactly like a mild mannered street car, but with the high end performance that can be extracted by choice. This is apparent in the S2000, NSX, Integra, Accord and Civic R's.
================================================== ====================
"if your rev range is say 1K to 9K then I would say a power band of 3K ain't THAT much.
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)"
================================================== ====================
Yes, relatively speaking but completely artificial to have any sense in reality.
How many 1.8 - 2.5 litre cars will be making more than 151 ft/lbs of torque at idle?
A Viper 8 litre V10 makes more torque at idle than a Ferrari F355 does at peak, but that wouldnt worry a 355 driver since he will be concerned with the torque it is making at higher RPM's where the horsepower will be found.
Race cars adopt large diameter valve and ports, high lift cam profiles in favour for more torque at higher RPMs. You'd be lucky to
launch the damn things on idle unless using half throttle or more.
Nevertheless, thanks to VTEC, all of the Honda performance cars make enough torque at lower RPMs and behave exactly like a mild mannered street car, but with the high end performance that can be extracted by choice. This is apparent in the S2000, NSX, Integra, Accord and Civic R's.
06 June 2003, 06:37 PM
#46
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Many Humbug Returns:
================================================== ====================
"You may not know the precise ingredients, nor technique the chef uses at your favourite reastaurant when he prepares your your favourite dish, but I'm sure you feel qualified to review it, and are very capable of doing so.
Same with cars or anything else for that matter."
================================================== ====================
If you're going to use that logic (which is stupid) then why don't you make a critical review for the lack of transparent aluminium?
Or slag off the team who built the $7 billion space telescope for costing too much? Or how about writing up a damning comment about global medical researchers competence for not finding cures for HIV, cancers and genetic defects? As you just said, "you dont need to know anything about it" to feel qualified to make an opinion!
I could say your mother and your sister are medically dumb, I'm no doctor, but hey! I "feel" qualified to make an opinion on it.
================================================== ====================
"You may not know the precise ingredients, nor technique the chef uses at your favourite reastaurant when he prepares your your favourite dish, but I'm sure you feel qualified to review it, and are very capable of doing so.
Same with cars or anything else for that matter."
================================================== ====================
If you're going to use that logic (which is stupid) then why don't you make a critical review for the lack of transparent aluminium?
Or slag off the team who built the $7 billion space telescope for costing too much? Or how about writing up a damning comment about global medical researchers competence for not finding cures for HIV, cancers and genetic defects? As you just said, "you dont need to know anything about it" to feel qualified to make an opinion!
I could say your mother and your sister are medically dumb, I'm no doctor, but hey! I "feel" qualified to make an opinion on it.
06 June 2003, 06:44 PM
#47
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You don't have to be a spotty engineer to review how a car drives. The subjective experience at the wheel is entirely independent of knowledge about the internal engineering. Do I have to spell it out anymore?
Leaving for the Savoy now....over and out.
Leaving for the Savoy now....over and out.
06 June 2003, 07:33 PM
#48
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If you take the food analogy you can review it by assessing the taste, smell, presentation, etc. I eat something and my senses tell me if I like it or not. What I can't do is go beyond that and say, the pasta was slightly overcooked, it needed this spice and that spice, etc.
Its the same with art. I am no artist and don't understand art yet I can look at something and come up with a gut feeling about whether I like it or not. I can't tell you why thought or critically anayse it! I got dragged to a Dahli exhibition once and I thought what was allegedly one of his best pieces sucked
Just shows how without the knowledge and understanding to critically analyse things we can be quite wrong.
Of course anyone can assess the car but to give a full critical anaylsis you have to understand what the car was built for, cars in general, etc and that is where the reviewer seems to 'miss the point' IMHO.
If you stick your gran in a BMW 330d and get her to drive it she'll almost certainly thinks its a faster car 0-100 than a VTS. Her senses would feel that torque crush and tell her this car is much faster than the saxo when in fact they both post the same 0-100 time. She can make an opinion but to rely on basic knowledge means it won't be a very good one
Its the same with art. I am no artist and don't understand art yet I can look at something and come up with a gut feeling about whether I like it or not. I can't tell you why thought or critically anayse it! I got dragged to a Dahli exhibition once and I thought what was allegedly one of his best pieces sucked
Just shows how without the knowledge and understanding to critically analyse things we can be quite wrong.Of course anyone can assess the car but to give a full critical anaylsis you have to understand what the car was built for, cars in general, etc and that is where the reviewer seems to 'miss the point' IMHO.
If you stick your gran in a BMW 330d and get her to drive it she'll almost certainly thinks its a faster car 0-100 than a VTS. Her senses would feel that torque crush and tell her this car is much faster than the saxo when in fact they both post the same 0-100 time. She can make an opinion but to rely on basic knowledge means it won't be a very good one
06 June 2003, 07:48 PM
#49
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That review is taken from www.pistonheads.com, one of the best car sites around in my opinion.
Cant agree or disagree with the review as i've never driven one, i'm quite sure the reviewer 'got it' though, it just didnt appeal to him, which is fair enough.
Gomp.
Cant agree or disagree with the review as i've never driven one, i'm quite sure the reviewer 'got it' though, it just didnt appeal to him, which is fair enough.
Gomp.
08 June 2003, 06:42 PM
#50
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have just read this entire post and f*ck me...!
some bloke has driven a car and then offered his opinion.
he can do that because he had the car and he can drive...simple.
he has then put his thoughts down for others to read.
how he interprets the car will be different to how you or i interpret it.
damon hill reckons the NSX is the best road car he has ever driven.
should i nip out and buy one because of that...?
no, i merely look at them and think that they might be nice to drive.
i think my ka is brilliant, you'll get in it and want to get out as quickly as possible...but it works for me.
this bloke has told us all what we already knew about the civic but because it wasn't what some wanted to hear, then the review gets a slagging.
it doesn't matter who does the review and how much experience they have, it will always be their personal opinion on a car that was designed and marketed to attract lots of people.
you will only know if you like the car by buying one and living with it.
some bloke has driven a car and then offered his opinion.
he can do that because he had the car and he can drive...simple.
he has then put his thoughts down for others to read.
how he interprets the car will be different to how you or i interpret it.
damon hill reckons the NSX is the best road car he has ever driven.
should i nip out and buy one because of that...?
no, i merely look at them and think that they might be nice to drive.
i think my ka is brilliant, you'll get in it and want to get out as quickly as possible...but it works for me.
this bloke has told us all what we already knew about the civic but because it wasn't what some wanted to hear, then the review gets a slagging.
it doesn't matter who does the review and how much experience they have, it will always be their personal opinion on a car that was designed and marketed to attract lots of people.
you will only know if you like the car by buying one and living with it.
08 June 2003, 06:55 PM
#51
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Can't be bothered to read all the comments - I read the first post and I disagree that he missed the point - he seems to know exactly what the VTEC business is all about and if peak torque is 5,900 then that's a fact.
I've never driven a CTR, but I've come to the conclusion that new cars don't get any better for all their increases in power and torque, they just lose character and gain weight, so I'm inclined to believe (based on what I've read and driving things like the 172) that in truth it's probably an average car that ultimately is underwhelming to drive after all the hype surrounding it. Exactly the same as the 172 in other words.
Fen
I've never driven a CTR, but I've come to the conclusion that new cars don't get any better for all their increases in power and torque, they just lose character and gain weight, so I'm inclined to believe (based on what I've read and driving things like the 172) that in truth it's probably an average car that ultimately is underwhelming to drive after all the hype surrounding it. Exactly the same as the 172 in other words.
Fen
09 June 2003, 10:01 AM
#52
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The most dissapointing car I've ever driven is my Impreza. I can fault it in so many more ways than the Saxo even though it is acutally and obviously a better car. It was just overhyped big time where as the Saxo didn't get a look in but would come up with the goods. It sucks when a car becomes too popular 
09 June 2003, 10:22 AM
#53
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================================================== ====================
"if your rev range is say 1K to 9K then I would say a power band of 3K ain't THAT much.
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)"
================================================== ====================
Yes, relatively speaking but completely artificial to have any sense in reality.
How many 1.8 - 2.5 litre cars will be making more than 151 ft/lbs of torque at idle?
"if your rev range is say 1K to 9K then I would say a power band of 3K ain't THAT much.
if your range is 1K to 7K then a band of 3K is greater no? (relatively speaking)"
================================================== ====================
Yes, relatively speaking but completely artificial to have any sense in reality.
How many 1.8 - 2.5 litre cars will be making more than 151 ft/lbs of torque at idle?
09 June 2003, 01:24 PM
#55
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Outright performance as standard isn't as good as the hype suggests. The build quality is very suspect in places but good in others. Panel thickness and paintwork are a joke. The handling and grip levels can be the real pain. The car excells at going round muddy corners with all four wheel spinning but when it comes to seriously sweeping bends in the dry the VTS had more outright grip and the front end held on much better. Its a great car and brilliant at the 'rally' style of driving but I hardly ever get the chance/have the guts to drive it like that.
Its a very able car and I love it but before you buy a scooby you do think its going to be the best thing since sliced bread and its not. Its still very very good mind
Its a very able car and I love it but before you buy a scooby you do think its going to be the best thing since sliced bread and its not. Its still very very good mind
09 June 2003, 02:31 PM
#56
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The most dissapointing car I've ever driven is my Impreza.
Fen
09 June 2003, 04:43 PM
#57
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The sad thing is that the scooby actually is a brilliant car and does some amazing things for the money but that also is its undoing. I think when I bought it I expected it to crush your lungs with the accleration and cornering force, still eek out 25mpg even when pushing it, not crumple in the car park at the sight of a nearby car door and generally snap knicker elastic at 100 yards. It does all these things but just not as well as I overly optomistically hoped it would. To the contrary I see women fastening their knickers tighter and making strange hand gestures when I drive past
09 June 2003, 04:59 PM
#58
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quote: ================================================== ==================== Yes, relatively speaking but completely artificial to have any sense in reality. How many 1.8 - 2.5 litre cars will be making more than 151 ft/lbs of torque at idle?
================================================== ==================
==================================
wtf?
==================================
Juan, someone here made a positive comment on the torque & power band of the S2000. Spanning 3000 RPM, which is GREAT in today's road standards. You then bring in some artificial situation of a car having a totally flat torque curve from 1K (Idle speed) all the way to redline.
"I" then asked you, how many 1.8 - 2.5 litre engines make more torque than the S2000 from Idle to the peak if you think a 3K power band is not impressive. Bottom line is, you're dreaming up some fantasy wonder-engine to attack the S2000's credibility.
You could say the McLaren F1 is a impressive supercar, I then could dream up a car that weighs 500 KG, holds 4 people and does 300 MPH top speed and only costs you £50'000, in theory a more impressive car, but in real life total B.S isn't it?
================================================== ==================
==================================
wtf?
==================================
Juan, someone here made a positive comment on the torque & power band of the S2000. Spanning 3000 RPM, which is GREAT in today's road standards. You then bring in some artificial situation of a car having a totally flat torque curve from 1K (Idle speed) all the way to redline.
"I" then asked you, how many 1.8 - 2.5 litre engines make more torque than the S2000 from Idle to the peak if you think a 3K power band is not impressive. Bottom line is, you're dreaming up some fantasy wonder-engine to attack the S2000's credibility.
You could say the McLaren F1 is a impressive supercar, I then could dream up a car that weighs 500 KG, holds 4 people and does 300 MPH top speed and only costs you £50'000, in theory a more impressive car, but in real life total B.S isn't it?
09 June 2003, 06:34 PM
#59
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I liked my Scoob as a car, but never loved it - it's a great, able tool but has too many faults (which didn't give it character, just made me irritated). Understeer, turbo lag and poor throttle response, running costs, mainly.
So I changed it for a Civic Type R 15 months ago (didn't do too badly on depreciation - I suspect the Honda dealer's Glass's guide was out of date) and I have grown to love it. Felt so smooth and honed, and responsive, after the tractor-like Impreza, and gives great feedback. Can be chucked around without getting to the end of a road and wondering how you did it that fast without crashing. It's easy to keep on the cam, and very satisfying - and the VTEC thing is *****; it starts to go hard from under 4000rpm, but you've got something to aim for as you head for the 5,800-8,400 zone. I'm very happy with it indeed.
So I changed it for a Civic Type R 15 months ago (didn't do too badly on depreciation - I suspect the Honda dealer's Glass's guide was out of date
) and I have grown to love it. Felt so smooth and honed, and responsive, after the tractor-like Impreza, and gives great feedback. Can be chucked around without getting to the end of a road and wondering how you did it that fast without crashing. It's easy to keep on the cam, and very satisfying - and the VTEC thing is *****; it starts to go hard from under 4000rpm, but you've got something to aim for as you head for the 5,800-8,400 zone. I'm very happy with it indeed.