moses i have said that many times before but ive never once heard you say its not ok to kill inocent civilians no matter what side

 

i havent heard u either only one sided that is


andrew did u watch panorama last week , u saw what zionists do in american to suit israel

 

Does not mean that all Israelis are bad.

Muslims have bad elements like all walks of life.

 

moses go to page one first post of this thread wrote by me how can you say im one sided ffs im sure sometimes your just looking to srgue for the sake of it

 

To reenforce what was said earlier, and to clarify for Moses who is, in SOME ways, understandably biased against the Israelis.... (I'll explain this point if necessary)

On both sides the majority of people want peace. However, there are also, on BOTH sides, many fanatical idiots with the power to kill and maim. There are however, two main differences between the two:

1. Israeli attacks are perpetrated by a professional State military, whereas the majority of Palestinian attacks are by terrorist groups. The former are bound by international law to respect the laws of war (which they don't), whereas the latter are simply illegal.

2. As a result of the above, the Israelis have MUCH bigger guns, hence the higher kill ratio in their favour.

The motivations and degree of hatred etc are similar on both sides, it is just the means that differ due to the disparity in power between the two i.e. terrorism is the only forcible option available to the Palestinians - they cannot engage the Israeli military on equal terms.

As said above, both sides need a major reality check and must understand that they are locked in a cycle of violence that either they must break themselves, or that an outsider e.g. the UN must break for them. Unfortunately Arafat is not the man for this, and Sharron is most DEFINATELY not either...

[Edited by Tractor - 5/26/2003 11:36:04 PM]

 

@ steve im not the one looking for a arguement its u

 

still cant bring yourself to say it yet then moses

 

no , no till the oppression stops, its wrong killing innocents always will be , but the other party dont complain much when their armies are bulldozing a oppressed people and their homes and killing them , so why should i

 

the british student shot in the head by israeli troops during the filming of this program was flown back to the UK yesterday, he is a photography student from Manchester Metropolitan University and was there to do a project on the people trying to aid the peace process. He was wearing a bright orange tabard to ensure he was obvious to the troops/palestinians and he was shot. The israeli army have so far lied about the circumstances of this shooting.

The family of this young man are now pressing the British government for an enquiry. He most likely will be a cabage for the rest of his days, it's amazing he has survived so long as it is.

It doesnt matter what opinions you have about the conflict and the rights of the palestinians/isreali's, you cannot justify a profesional soldier shooting anyone in the way they do daily in the Gazza strip.

 

john i agree 100%

 

Unproffesional yes. This is a problem when you have conscription. The British Army is a professional, well trained, commited, well led force that is there by choice and is trained and developed. The IDF is mostly conscripts as I recall. Whilst both forces have extensive experience in urban conflict and control, only the British Army retains and develops this experience by virtue of developing an exceptional NCO cadre, and these mentoring, junior NCO's and junior Officers.
Another factor was one I mantioned earlier in this thread. In Ulster it was a very small proportion of the young male population were tooled up and ready to have a pop. In the occupied
Palestinian ares it is a majority of the disaffected male youths who can be a threat.
As for people in Orange Tabbards that is just plain trigger happy feckin garbage.

 

dais did you see that kid get shot i couldent belive it ill give the shooter his due good marksmanship straight in the poor lads head. from what i saw it couldent have been a mistake he looked like a human cylume (if thats how you spell it )

 

The sooner someone disproves the existence of God the better.

Moses - I pity your hatred.

 

It is as Dai and HG say. Until the protagonists are prepared to start using a bit of nouse and realising that neither side is going to go away, and the killing will just continue, then there will be no progress towards peace. They have to sit down and talk with a different attitude, ie to make an enduring peace. They need to throw all the dogma and idealogical blinkered behaviour away and talk about settling borders in a fair manner to both sides and learning to live together in a profitable manner. People are people the world over and religious beliefs are fine but should not cause friction if they are different to other's beliefs. Basically it is time they all grew up and became more mature in their national requirements.

People who deny the existence of God often do so for their own personal convenience. But it is up to them whether they wish to or not.

Les

[Edited by Leslie - 5/30/2003 1:08:48 PM]

 

Steve.
He was a fair old shot, I'll give you that. But I would hope it is not a case of attrition warfare. You and I have been in situations where your pooper is going thruppenny bit six pence, and it is our sound training that holds the string together and we dont cap off like the Yanks, IDF etc. I feel that it is a tense situation with young inexperienced sprogs treating every movement as a potential threat. They have exceedingly poor NCO leadership and looked to be honest like a bunch of militia roaming the gaff looking for a fight. Till both sides down tools and stand well back this will continue.

 

ted maul



its not hatred its oppression, if your kids and family were getting butchered and your land getting ceased , u think u will luv your oppressors

 

Moses
You have to admit the hatred is on both sides. Both sides are at fault, both side butcher the innocent, both sides need to give ground both metaphorically and physically.
As an ex soldier I condem whole heartedly the shooting of unarmed civilians, see my posts above. But I also whole heartedly condem the suicide bombings of Isreali targets as well.
Both sides are at fault and both sides perpetuate the situation but not downing weapons, backing away and talking.

 

i understand dais u talk sense and are reasonable mate

but their wouldnt have been suicide bombing if they didnt take the rights away from these people, u hear about some fanatics who happen to be muslims, mate u should study these fanatical jews too and u will see what its all about, gentiles are their as the animals are for the jews , given to them by God to basically use , this is the kind of mentality we are up against, not all jews think like that but most do, basically its all bullsh1t what they talk about.


if the oppression stops and they give back the palestinian lands i guarantee u that all or most of the violence will stop and if they can control their scum settler fannies

 

Moses
Sad but true
I have seen too many maimed and killed in the name of the same god.
All sides believe that god is with them, and commit heanous crimes in his name. I know all sides have there fanatics, and the closer to the flame you stand the hotter you burn. It is sad to see some good moderate Palestinian polititians and leaders offer concessions only for Isreali zealots and Plalestinian fanatics to dash all hopes over and over again in a futile tit-for-tat war.
America should exercise some influence over Isreal and send in troops to police the borders. Better still the UN should send in a peacekeping force of troops from non aligned nations. I hope that for the sake of the future of the innocents on both sides that it is resolved within this generation. Look to Ulster for a template. I saw murder and hatred on a daily basis on those streets. The devides are still there but the commitment of the people is to make it work. The trouble was too many people would have lost out if peace reigned. They turned them into politicians and gave them the same power from behind a desk instead of behind an M16.
áÓáÇã Úáíßã

( no offence if it is incorrect should be " peace be with you ")

 

dais and moses nice to see some sensible talk on a situation i like both your vews and ideas just wanted to say nice one

 

quote "if the oppression stops and they give back the palestinian lands i guarantee u that all or most of the violence will stop" unquote

tell that to the Israelis who died during the yom kippur war. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on how it came to pass that Israel occupy this land?

 

dais your cool mate , i agree , palestinians have been asking the un for ages mate to monitor the situation their, but the usa veto'd it as usual



ted sabra and chatila stamp it on your head and the rest of the wars when they butchered palestinian families and took of their land and evicted them, that was a HOLOCAUST and holocaust is a english word not hebrew or yiddish, so why does it get monopolised for the jews and zionists only

 

Actually this is Holocaust

http://www.holocaust-history.org/

 

This essentially equates to proving the non-existence of God, and proving a negative is logically impossible.

The onus is on those who claim that God exists to prove 'his' existence and this has never convincingly be done.

 

Akshay, the proof of the existence of God is evrywhere mate.....even you are a proof of the existence of God. IMHO anybody who thinks this amazing worls, full of diverse people and animals came into existence by some big bang..............the mind boggles.

It is far easier to believe evrything was CREATED than just happened by random chance....

 

well said bros turbo



akshay we are the living proof their is a God


lets say if u were hungry will u get fed my chance, no, u will have to move make an effort to make food and then put it in your mouth and then eat or ask your family to make it for u, if u were dirty u will not be cleaned by chance u will have to wash yourself or have a bath, if u dont shave , your beard will grow so u need to move and shave so nothing happens by chance i told u in baby terms if u cant work it out from here u are surely doomed


so this is how the maker made this world, its all here coz the lord made a effort and he gave us things for free


imagine u had weak eyes u will pay hundreds for glasses so u can see better but imagine if we didnt have eyes, we would sell our soul to see, God gave us our eyes and all over parts for free and we should be thankful

[Edited by moses - 5/31/2003 5:49:47 PM]

 

The real point I think is that it is a "cop out" to blame God for wars. It is the people concerned who start them, and it always seems to be largely down to the personal ambition of world leaders.

I am a Christian and will remain so, I believe it is right to defend yourself against an agressor. However I also believe that you have got to have a very good and transparently honest reason to be an agressor yourself.

Les

 

Palestine is a country that has been there for centuries, Israel moved in and basically took it away. We should not be surprised if the Palestinians want there land back, it was afterall theirs to begin with.

There is one question that does make me wonder.

Suicide bombers, how can Israel prove beyond a shadow of doubt that those who take their lives, along with others in the vicinity are infact Palestinians?

Isn't conceivable that they might be Israeli's who are disillusioned with there government or even maybe volunteers from the Israeli forces who commit these acts of violence purely to keep the argument running?

These questions will probably never be answered because the people who commit suicide in this way usually have no identity left and therefore cannot be DNA tested, and anyway no test after death can tell us exactly why they did it, or whether they were Israeli or Palestinian.

It just seems odd that each time peac talks start again, someone kills themselves in this horrible way, there are Israeli's who do not wish to have peace in their area, who do not want the Palestinians to regain their land....


What better way to cause more heartache and bloodshed than to blow up a bus and blame it on the Palestinians, sadly and cynically the Israeli's have both motive and facilities to do this

 

Palestine is a country that has been there for centuries, Israel moved in and basically took it away. We should not be surprised if the Palestinians want there land back, it was afterall theirs to begin with.

There is one question that does make me wonder.

Suicide bombers, how can Israel prove beyond a shadow of doubt that those who take their lives, along with others in the vicinity are infact Palestinians?

Isn't it conceivable that they might be Israeli's who are disillusioned with there government or even maybe volunteers from the Israeli forces who commit these acts of violence purely to keep the argument running?

These questions will probably never be answered because the people who commit suicide in this way usually have no identity left and therefore cannot be DNA tested, and anyway no test after death can tell us exactly why they did it, or whether they were Israeli or Palestinian.

It just seems odd that each time peac talks start again, someone kills themselves in this horrible way, there are Israeli's who do not wish to have peace in their area, who do not want the Palestinians to regain their land....


What better way to cause more heartache and bloodshed than to blow up a bus and blame it on the Palestinians, sadly and cynically the Israeli's have both motive and facilities to do this

 

sorry about that, hit wrong do-dar on thingy