R19KET

Carlos,

I think you'll find that Bob has already stated that his "TD05" comments were tongue in cheek

I ran a VF24, and VF hybrid up to 1.7bar, without a BOV, and both survived, even though the VF24 did end up with a small hole in one of the compressor blades........

Mark.

Dark Evo

It's like the House of Lords in here

Sligtly off topic, but the majority of threads only need a few responses to be covered, so it's good to keep a conversation going even if it slightly changes topic over time. (As in real life conversations, what would we do if we were having a conversation at a RR day, as some guy comes up and sticks some tape over our gubs )

I had a VF 23, and under no cicumsatnces would have run it without a BOV, unless it was proved to be a reliable turbo without a BOV present.
The VF23 was only designed to push 300bhp, so I spent a lot of time researching what turbo I would be happy with to push 350 bhp+

I now have a TD 05 front enrty without a BOV. Neadless to say, if the TD05/06 hybrid is reliable for 400+ then I cant see me taking too long to decide on which turbo to go for next.

Why would we spend x amount on a turbo when it's now very clear that we can spend a fraction of x and get a better turbo.

Ask a cossie tunner how to get more power out of a cossie it geos like this :-


A. It goes like this (2wd). A chip, actuator and 15psi of boost will release an extra 70bhp (commonly referred to as a "stage 1"). A chip, actuator, higher flow (803) injectors, 3 bar MAP sensor and 21psi will release an extra 110bhp (stage 2). A chip, actuator, 803 injectors, 3 bar MAP sensor, hybrid turbo and 27psi will release an extra 140bhp (stage 3). An engine dyno re-map, 803 injectors, 3 bar MAP sensor, bigger hybrid turbo and 34psi will release an extra 180bhp (stage 4). A chip, actuator 403 (grey) injectors, 3 bar MAP sensor, T4 turbo and 21 psi will release an extra 220bhp (stage 5). To go above this or equal it with a smaller (more responsive) turbo would require head work and cam changes, as well as "blue-printing" the engine for reliability.

Ask most Subaru tunners how to get more power from the Impreza and it geos like this:-

It depends what you want to do with the car

Just a bit of freindly sarcasm

(Any advice given to me over the years has always been greatly appreciated)

Bob Rawle

Carlos, my "TD05" hybrid is 10% VF, 5% TD05 (water pipework actually) and 85% Allied Signal.

Yes I do run a BOV but its tuned pretty high so under most circumstances it hardly does anything, I would not recommend not using one, not unless you are prepared for the turbo to suffer some damage.

Deep Singh

Just to prove my complete ignorance again.Was the TD05 standard fitment on a previous Scoob,if so which one?
Have I understood this right? If I 'bolt'on a TD05,car has decent breathing mods(full exhaust),fuel supply(550 inj,uprated pump,fpr),well mapped(Ecutek) I should see 1 bar boost below 3k and knock out 370ish BHP?
ps still running standard tmic,which is quite large on the 7

Deep Singh

Forgot to say,370BHP with 1.4 bar boost or less.

john banks

If you want that much power at that boost you need a bigger hybrid. But I would strongly advise a FMIC too. Even an efficient turbo still dramatically heats the air. You will soon get into a vicious cycle of detonation as the power climbs without a FMIC IMHO.

How does a modern roller bearing (GT25 or 30?) Garrett hybrid compare to a similar sized TD05 16G or TD05/06 20G hybrid in terms of outright flow for similar lag and boost threshold? Are they similar or do the Garretts perform far better in the 350-450 BHP range?

[Edited by john banks - 2/15/2003 10:07:29 AM]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Bob,

I think we need to introduce some new terminology regarding your turbo....we will have to drop the 'hybrid' description and introduce a new phrase - a VF/TD/AS mongrel turbo

Sam,

when you make your comments regarding stage tuning - there is a reason for it with Scoobs. They come in so many shapes from Classic, Bugeye and Blobeye, and sizes from TD05, VF24, VF28, VF30, VF35 that all have such different characteristics it would be impossible to define a stage tune that guaranteed a level of power.

Also as we have seen over the past few months - a 350bhp target - which 18months ago was the preserve of the elite - can now be achieved in a number of different ways so easily. The advent of Ecutek tuned to a specific car, off the shelf or DIY turbos, and appropriate fuel systems and pipework are now all available.

So it does come down to how much you want to spend - from £1500 (and £3000 worth of man hours ) for a DIY approach - to £10k for an engine rebuild and flashy-lighty ECU and bits

It has probably taken longer to reach this state of tuning maturity with Scoobs as the pioneers have been held back by thoughts of chocolate engine and many early engine failures.

We seem to have gotten through this now - and it would seem that the world is anyones oyster.

So.....how much do you want to spend, and what is it you are are actually wanting from the car

Rannoch (back from the dead!)

Andy.F

Nice to have Rannoch the techy back his mate Trout was getting a bit irksome I wonder where Cosie Convert is these days

Deep Singh

ok lets talk specific to my car then.STi7,VF30 turbo,full 2.5" exhaust,uprated pump,std 550(?) pink injectors,std tmic,NGK 7 plugs,Ecutek,ALWAYS run on Optimax and OB,NEVER goes on track,but sees a good thrashing on the road sometimes.I really d'ont want to go down the fmic route(expense,fitting problems,resale probs of car with bits cut out etc).Is there any point im me just changing the turbo? ie can I make say even another road useful 25-35 BHP with just a turbo change or will a fmic be essential for this to be done safely.If I can which turbo is recommended.
Many thanks,Deep

john banks

A larger turbo would still be useful with the TMIC. As I understand it your injectors are 500cc.

Although water injection is not ideally used instead of a good intercooler, it can help, and I would certainly do this if you are going for more power but keeping the TMIC.

Your injectors could supply more with a fuel pressure regulator.

Your engine and gearbox should be more capable than Andy F's or mine in terms of strength.

Not many have mad tuned an STi 7, depends on how much risk/pioneering you will do.

If an engine failure would be a disaster rather than an opportunity for you then I would say stop where you are.

Otherwise there is the option of a TD05/06 20G (surge issues are being sorted gradually by experimenting with different clipsand with capable boost control as provided by your ECU not an issue) or you could go for a ASVFTD Garrett hybrid.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Deep,

when I originally tuned my car - I used a large TMIC - the MRT one to avoid savaging the car.

In terms of on road performance - the FMIC did require a little extra fueling - although that was at peak boost/peak torque. With the TMIC (and water injection) the car only really suffered an apparent power issue on the rollers (cooling issue) and on track (again cooling issue). On the road there was very little difference. Even so - as I have said elsewhere - my car was briefly the most powerful ever run at PE - and this was with a TMIC.

On track tho - last year at Bedford mixing it with the Porks and Ferraris the car really suffered - ambient temps were over 30degs and I lost a valuable 30bhp+ as everything was SO hot. An FMIC would have been very valuable that day

You have a very big and efficient TMIC in the STI 7 and so could benefit from a other power upgrades. However a RR day may not flatter your cars real performance - the same mods will typically, although not always, get better results with an FMIC. On the road you could be very well pleased.

Have you had your car remapped at all - I have been in an STI 8 with PPP downpipe and exhaust - it is like a train from below 3000rpm, with a peak power of around 350bhp - with the standard turbo. However it is not a standard PPP remap.

This might be a good start point. If you want a lot more then you need to change the turbo - and then if you push your car hard on track then your really need an FMIC.

Rannoch

[Edited by Rannoch - 2/15/2003 12:55:04 PM]

john banks

Thing is though David, would you push your car on the boost and mapping like you do now with the TMIC still on? What I like with the FMIC is that the timing you can run on the first WOT is similar to what you can run after a really good blat. With a TMIC I found I was always getting the ignition nice, and when the weather got hotter and the roads dry and you could really push it mile after mile it started heatsoaking and detting. Maybe your water helped here? I found my uprated TMIC a disappointment ultimately, but that is because I soon got to the same charge temperature again with a little more boost than previously. But it is very nice not to have to chop the car about with a FMIC.

Deep Singh

Thanks for the replies.I'll be even more accurate in info to be specific for my car/needs.Rannoch,the car has been remapped by Pat using Ecutek has has full exhaust and uprated fuel pump.We have a little issue with boost at present,ie I'm only holding about 1.25 bar.At 1 bar the car was RRed at 325 BHP.Once the actuator is sorted I should hopefully be holding 1.35bar in the midrange.This I hope should equate to a decent 340 ish BHP.I would like a little more power(20-30 BHP) on the road,I d'ont care about RR results at all.The car will NEVER go on track at ANY time fullstop.As for an engine failure,I would rather not have one but accept it as a risk for my chosen hobby/past time etc.I could afford it without being bankrupted.
So the question is this.Could I get a turbo that would give me another reliable 20-30 BHP on my tmic(with Ecutek)? Would'nt a bigger turbo be more efficient and hence generate about the same temps as my VF30 for an extra xBHP and so det not be an issue?Or have I misunderstood how this works? Also c'ant I just use a TDO5 if they are good for up to 380 BHP rather than spending extra money on a 5/6 Hybrid?
Many questions as always I'm afraid.
Many thanks for your help,Deep.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

John,

ultimately yes I agree - hence my comments about hot track days - the only place I really push the car to its limits

However on the road - the water injection made a huge difference. At the moment the water system has been taken off the car and I have had to pull a lot of ignition timing at peak torque and the call feels much flatter

I also had TMIC water spray - again on the road that made a huge difference to controlling temps - but on track I was on boost so much the TMIC was merely being flooded. Never got around to making an inlet temp/timer switch for the system.

But all will be remedied soon

Rannoch

[Edited by Rannoch - 2/15/2003 4:35:28 PM]

Deep Singh

oh yeah no one told me what Scoob(if any) had the TD05 as standard?

FASTER MIKE!!

uk cars till my97 phase 1 and wrx`s

mike

Andy.F

UK and WRX 93 to 96 models had either a td04 or td05 fitted as standard. They also originally have the 90 degree entry which needs modified to direct entry to fit the later cars.(approx £70 exchange)

Deep Singh

How bizarre.I'm sure this has been asked before but why did the older cars have a turbo good for 380-400 BHP and good spool up and the more later cars have turbos that have difficulty with 350 BHP.

Andy.F

The TD05 on a std WRX is not known for its good spool up, it's actually quite laggy. It requires free breathing and a decent exhaust to free it up and improve the spool up.
As JB said earlier, in standard form, the TD04 and some VF's are a better option.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

For Group N rally homologation.

Rannoch

Deep Singh

Thanks.No real answer to my long winded question though guys.With my mods(as stated above) would a properly modified TDO5 give me more power(ie 20-30BHP or more)than my VF30 at the same boost level?

john banks

Maybe people are dodging it because we don't know what the VF30 is capable of because there are no compressor maps freely available? Would be a shame to suggest a TD05 if your OEM turbo will do it. Has anyone tried? I would personally say that the TD05 is comfortable with 350-360 BHP, may flow another 20-30 BHP on top, I would rather leave a safety margin and go for something bigger though. Doubt the TD06/05 hybrid would fit around your TMIC.

Bob Rawle

Deep, the TD05 is an ok turbo but .... a turbo is not the solution to 380 bhp, its only one part of getting there. The TD05 as fitted to the early cars (including STi2 Wagon as I had) is good but there are alternatives which could also be suited to your needs. Personally I don't think that changing to a TD05 will give you 370bhp. If your volumetric efficiency is (and intercooler) not good then a turbo capable of 380 bhp will not get close. Its not all about moving air in isolation, you need the capability to run the timing to go with it and the boost. That means low charge temps.

Your priority's should be to sort out your intercooler (still not good enough) ie FMIC. Exhaust and induction then need to be changed once you have decided on a turbo as they will determine wether the chosen turbo can actually pump the air to give the engine good enough volumetric efficiency to make the power you want.

Then injectors, fuel control system, etc.

You won't make 380 bhp from one bar without a bigger turbo than the TD05, I make circa 400 at 1 bar and 30% throttle but thats using a higher comp engine and a "500" bhp turbo.

Bob

Deep Singh

Thanks Bob.So basically d'ont bother with another turbo until I am prepared to take the plunge for a fmic as I wont really see the gains as it w'ont really be able to work efficently.Thanks for that.
As an aside to you guys who have mapped the STi7.As yet I've resisted aftermarket induction kits due to all the horror stories about MAF failure then engine failure(or leaning).I have noted your thoughts on the APS Bob with particular care! Do you think that at my level of tune(prob 330ish BHP)that the standard airbox is restrictive.Should I change it at this point.
Also do you feel that the VF30 would work better with a full 3"exhaust as opposed to my current 2.5" set up.Or is there not much in it.
Many thanks as always for your input,Deep.

Andy.F

Bob

Have you calculated the volumetric efficiency you are achieving to attain 400bhp at 1 bar ? Can I presume that this occurs up near 8000rpm

Andy

Bob Rawle

Since you are in the "remapping" loop now any induction kit can/should be catered for by map adjustment, is the factory air intake system restictive ... yes very but the choice of replacement should compliment the choice of turbo, intercooler and exhaust. If you are considering changing though the "biggest is best" very much holds true for intake.

Wether you change intercooler or turbo first will be the subject of varied opinion, I am of the view that until charge temps are under control its pointless increasing potential air charge as temperature will always limit the result.

Deep Singh

Thanks Bob.I had a call from Jonno earlier,he's very very happy!!
The atw figure is very impressive,I presume with a bit more to come yet! I'm probably going down a similar route.
Many thanks,Deep.

Bob Rawle

Hi Andy, yes I have (of sorts) but its not that simple as there are other factors involved. Will mail you off line on this.

cheers

bob

Absolute Shower

Andy F...to answer your question as to what BHP I'm looking for...with what specs...

The car currently has Blitz backbox, Power Engineering system with single sports cat and down pipe, Scoobysport de-cat up pipe and HKS manifold, cold induction kit, forge dump, APS TMIC with splitter and auto waterspray. It will have 550 jets, uprated pump and reg when I've decided on what turbo.

I'm looking for 350 bhp...no more..but maybe 380 in a few years.

john banks

If you are prepared to do a lot of work to get it to fit and are going to get the car remapped then yes it is worth it. Forgot to answer the original poster's question. I reckon the TD05 is good for 380-385 BHP, and I also think that is what I am running on it now. On my car it makes 1 bar at 2700 RPM in a 5th gear, 2900 in 4th, 3100 in 3rd, lower if held back on the brakes. However, it does seem to make really impressive torque from only 3000 RPM.

[Edited by john banks - 2/11/2003 11:27:00 PM]