fatherpierre

328i sounds better!

Did you de-cat yours in the end?

Paul_M

Yes it does. If you're comparing to another N/A 2.0 car then it doesn't lack torque (very similar to the ST170 for example) but the comparison here is to a 2.0 turbo car so let's take this in context of the original post - we're not comparing to the ST170 or whatever other N/A 2.0s in the class. So in these terms against the Impreza Turbo it has far less torque, and even then the peak torque is significantly higher up the rev range.

Yes the gearing multiplication and high revving make up for the lack of torque by allowing you to take advantage of the power (which is good for a N/A 2.0) but my point was that in relaxed driving, changing up at around 3000RPM then a UK turbo will be producing much more torque and feel much more gutsy.

60-100 times aren't what I'd call "pottering around" which is the issue I was raising with the original poster. Even though we drive performance cars a lot of people like to drive around much of the time in a relaxed way and still have nice grunt for going up hills etc (think of driving a good diesel, this is what it's best at). Yes the CTR is almost as good when nailing it but consider the amount of time you'll spend driving normally and then take into account whether you'd rather have 50% more peak torque which is also better across the range.

Why is it that when I mention the torque advantage I start getting replies about "it's got good torque for a N/A 2.0" - so what, we're comparing the driving experience with a 2.0 turbo car so it should be compared regardless of what engine is fitted. Where is the misconception, have all the published figures been fudged or something? Am I missing something? Maybe we should compare the CTR to the Yaris VVT-i - OK the civic has much more torque but a far bigger capacity engine so maybe the yaris is really just as torquey???? Hmmm OK it's a sh1te example but is anyone starting to actually get the point when you take the context of the original question and my reply to it?

si325i

the pipe is coming next week from scorpion. £182
u have got a good memory too.
can't wait i'll will let you all know the results.
and 328 does sound better.
but my J E36 No AC only E/W in front, less weight than 328? faster? 1 BHP less. bring it on!!

fatherpierre

328i has more torque, though!

It's half a sec quicker to 60!

But with your extra power you may match it, mate!

si325i

like i always say if your happy with your cars performance etc. WTF
does i really matter @ the end of the day. I'M HAPPY!

chrisp

confused me again , looks like I will have to keep my crappy scoob and learn to live with it a bit more . Until I find me a 993 turbo .

Paul_M

Forced induction is a decent substitute for capacity. Many will argue there's no worthwhile substitute for capacity, but IMO it's still a way better solution than neither capacity nor forced induction!

Yeah diesels have them as well, maybe one of the reasons the SAC tuned BMW 330d engine can easily produce 510Nm torque at 2200RPM and 206BHP at 3100RPM which allows it to do the 30-70 in-gear sprint faster than an M3. And if that ain't enough it still manages 35MPG on the combined cycle.

Damn these outdated agriculatural engines... turbos... diesels... thought they only used those in tractors! Sorry mate but turbodiesels are the future, they are advancing at a phenomenal rate and it won't be long until their power outputs start overtaking that of equivalent petrol engines just like the torque outputs done ages ago. Get used to it!

si325i

sorry.
993 should do it. lol
or you could get a 911 strip it out, nearly the same.

LG John

I like the CTR. I like Honda. I've driven the CTR and I have an MY99 scooby and I'm not usually biased but try to base my opinions on fact and experience! Disclaimer: that said I like scoobs over evo's for no apparent reason

Anyway, my point is this...the CTR is very fast for a hatch and a very good all round car. I was very impressed when I drove it and enjoyed the drive thoroughly However, compared to my scooby, which including mods still costs less, it can't compete! The scooby is quite a bit quicker all round. I've had it for 15k miles since the summer and only recently started to get to grips with what the 4WD can do in the corners. On anything tighter than sweeping a-class roads I can get the scooby to go round quicker IMO. If you get the power in smoothly and correctly the front end pulls itself round whilst the rear end increases the cars speed (that the only way to describe how it feels). Usually by the end of a tight corner and EVEN in the dry the front end is being held tucked in whilst the rear is starting to try and brake away and the speed is still increasing! For a FWD car to increase its speed like that out of a corner the power that would need to be applied through the front to match the scooby would cause it to wash out and understeer (even with a clever diff). Unfortunately its very hard to drive the scooby like this and I admit I rarely get it right! But, the peeps that do will be almost untouchable in the twisties. A lot of scooby owners go through life never realising the car can do this. These are the people that get spanked and wreck the cars cornering image (those and the ones that spin after fuel surge ) I only discovered it through trial and error and in some cases (dare I say it) by taking risks by pushing her beyond the limit to see how she reacts. This is why I'd argue that on the proper twisties and an equal driver a FWD won't keep up. Anyone who doesn't believe me get in the car with sipie (he's really mastered the 4wd) and you'll realise that a fwd could never keep up an that a rwd would need to be driven very well.

Notwithstanding all this, the CTR wasn't designed to have a 4WD and is very good at what it was designed to do..the best IMHO. Just stop comparing it to the scooby in such detail because they are such different cars.

Super flame suit on cause I suspect the guns will be pointing at me now

si325i

diesel my ****, i dont like getting taxis.
and yes i had a TD once but dont tell anyone.


[Edited by si325i - 1/30/2003 10:39:42 PM]

Midmotorsteve

Non-bias non scoob or ctr owner - SCOOBY!!!

MooseRacer

Paul, I think your first post about the CTR said it had 'sod all torque' which is wrong and hence my reply. The CTR is one of the torquiest engines in it's class (and that doesn't include a Scoob imho) I don't know where the misconceptions come from either - maybe it's the rush at the top end that makes lower down feel worse than it actually is, maybe people are basing their comments on having driven older Civic VTi's?

I don't think anyone would try and argue it is anywhere near as torquey as a Scoob, or other Turbo motors

As a final point I believe they are different classes of cars - performance may (or may not ) be broadly similar but that is about it, when you take price into consideration your comparison between the CTR and Yaris is as applicable as this comparison between CTR and Scoob

Dark Blue Mark

There would be **** all difference between the 2 on track, id put money on it. Both standard of course.

Being a turbo, mods go a long way...

MB

chrisp

Track driving is not where 99.9% of driving is done. This is the problem with the FRS everyone thinks its quick because it quick on a track, this doesnt translate to its road manners compared to a scoob. A Ferrari F1 car is the best track car about but I wouldnt want to commute everyday in one would you ?.

si325i

could be fun going to work in an F1 car, idle 10000rmp @ the traffic light, GO GO GO...and there off. "and I interrupt myself to bring you this...."
"We now have exactly the same situation as we had at the start of the race, only exactly the opposite"




[Edited by si325i - 1/31/2003 10:06:35 AM]

UHF

Paul_M you answered my question, outside of driving quick deliberately it certainly sounds like the scooby has the advantage, the engine really does feel flexible.

Sparky1066

DJ Dunk, bit late to reply but yes, I have sat in a Civic Type R and driven it, and the seats suck. They are no where near as supportive as mine in my MY99 Scoob.

Ali-T

"A Ferrari F1 car is the best track car about but I wouldnt want to commute everyday in one would you ?. "


Damn right I would. That would be hilarious

IS anyone forgetting another small factor- the WRX costs thousands more than the CTR. even at the recent discounted price it's still £4k more.

Oh sod it, why not just buy a mint RX-7 import and be done with it!!!

chrisp

Euro import UK spec WRX with 3 year subaru warranty can be had form Litchfield import or emperor imports for 16,400 OTR, how much is a CTR ?.

MooseRacer

Cheapeast I've seen genuine UK cars is £14500otr

S.B.

Get a CTR if you dont want to carry as many passengers....only 2 seatbelts in the back...

UHF

passengers aint a problem, i dont think i've ever had more than 3 people including myself in the car anyway.

Dark Blue Mark

Ok, there'd be **** all in it on the open road either.

Dont see what the difference is, if you manage to have a proper race on an open road, then you drive the car to its limits anyway. Most people on here think a race is between one set of lights to the next.

I dont think using an F1 car as an example is particularly useful either, it would clearly be the quickest on most roads too If you compare like for like under the same conditions, its a fair test in my book.

Too many people on here think 10hp means you can whip someone. You really need double to absolutely punish someone.

Come down here and try some of the country roads

MB

UHF

We've got some nice country roads in Hertfordshire, in fact my journey home is all country roads (which was interesting yesterday, sheet ice and subaru makes for interesting driving). Its a shear delight to drive home every day after work, which unfortunately makes the working day feel longer ;(

chrisp

Dont think you understand have you driven a scoob over a damp/bumpy back road the car is awesome and confidence inspiring and much better than some sports cars costing 4 times as much but if you are happy with your CTRs capabilities then fair enough doesnt matter what I say .

Looking by your name your are a scoob driver or (ex with an axe )so have you driven a CTR in the same conditions

[Edited by chrisp - 1/31/2003 7:34:05 PM]

Dark Blue Mark

Chris, I drive a MY99 scoob with 270 bhp, I was being objective

I still dont think there's be a lot in it.

MB

LG John

Truer words were never spoken!

chrisp

Oh we are being objective scoob owners .

Yep nothing in it IM"H"O

Yep seriously comes down to driver and committment. I do agree best to play on the relative safety of a track.

[Edited by chrisp - 1/31/2003 7:40:40 PM]

UHF

Just a small point but the double power thing only makes sense if you qualify it as a hp per ton equation

LG John

Ok, ok...picky,picky, picky