wacky.banana

TSNYW,

You started off what has turned out to be a really useful thread so thanks for that. I see you want to let it die, so let it be so.

The conclusions I have drawn from all this are:

- If you either want to give your car some serious stick or modify it in the engine/exhaist department in any way (including PPP) then change your pump for a more robust item.

- If you are happy to pootle along and have no intentions of modifying the car (ie leave it in OEM spec) then sleep easy. If you are in this mode and you get unlucky then your warranty should help you out.

That's it; over and out.

WB

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

I lied, they let me out on good behaviour found a computor and I am back LOL no not really

WB,
Bottom answer closer to the truth I have a UK due to security of Warrianteeey (Warranty)Matt But would love the car to have some more power but won't happen

anyone know I unsubscribe from this thread ??? I hate computors

Tony

Ps Cheers Dave and Matt for moral support Going to do an open university course in Oragarmi LOL

Jza

1) If this pump (which is fitted to my car) is so bad... can i order the new "Prodrive uprated fuel pump" for my car (MY01 WRX PPP) and still keep the warrenty as its a subaru approved part?

2) Will it make any difference?

Jza

mutant_matt

Jza,

Contact your dealer and find out? (and then let us know )

Matt

Scooby50WRX

About the warranty which seems to be a problem for most of you, here in Switzerland, I have discussed directly with the Subaru technician and he told me that Subaru Switzerland will never be so mad to cut the warranty 'cause I would have fitted a better performance fuel pump ! "it's evident""but it's also evident for us that the standard pumps delivers enough fuel quantity for the standard STI" .

Why could you have specially a warranty problem with that new pump in G.B. ?

Apart that, the big increase of power from 6200 rpm (or V-Tec effect) was reffering some weeks ago, to the variable timing of the STI... so is it right or due to a lean fuel mixture ? (in this case, I have to moderate my right foot !!!)

P.S. All are speaking about the pump upgrade but quite nothing about the regulator, normally you must change both.
Pump + regulator Brands and references should be very helpful.

[Edited by Scooby50WRX - 2/20/2003 11:27:58 PM]

Jza

Scooby50WRX,

The problem with the warrenty is that we have just had a thread where one guys STI7 went BANG. Subaru UK
said that because he had a TSL backbox - his warrenty was INVALID!!!!!!

So any mods are potentially going to be deemed as "warrenty voiders".

I won't stick a new pump on if Subaru UK are going to tell me the warrety is void!!!

Jza

marklemac

So surely the moral of the story is that if you have a STi-7 like me and really want PPP then get it.

If it goes pop, then warranty sorts it out. (assuming you have done nothing else to the car)

surely, if these cars are going pop then subaru/prodrive must address this issue otherwise it is going to cost them a lot of money long term, OR maybe they will withdraw the PPP kit to cover their asses ?

Scooby50WRX

I agree Jza, but at this point it seems that there are two ways depending where you live.

One importer, in Switzerland, says that a new fuel pump will not void the warranty and another, in Great-Britain, wants to explore all the ways he can to avoid to pay. The backbox pretext was so impudent than it would be a reason for me to quit Subaru for ever. We don't have to accept to be seen as money-box and to be considered as the last of the idiots who must accept a so crazy pretext !

Same cars, same problems, differents ways to consider the customer...

STI7PPP

Most of STi7 engine failures have been from leaning out IIRC ( some were through incorrect gear selection), yet reading posts here the fueling seems to be on the very rich side, as "piston cooler" to be "on the safe side" "Tipping it in with a bucket" I think some terms that were used.
If this is the case, excuse my ignorance, but how can changing a Back Box and or second Cat alter the fueling enough to lean out and meltdown.

So top lose warrenty is Total B*ll**ks if you ask me.

john banks

Very possibly not, but more extensive breathing mods could cause it to lean out quite easily.

Imagine a standard fuel map that has artificially inflated values to prop up a borderline but just coping fuel pump (with the said map).

Then add a boost creeping exhaust (really including a downpipe here as well IMHO) and consider a reducing fuel pressure and you can see the potential for disaster. If the ECU does not listen to knock at high RPM as well then the situation could be compounded.... from a safe car you have a car running more boost (which it can't control), excessive ignition timing and not enough fuel. Not a nice combination, and not uniquely seen on the STi 7 either. I had very similar - an STi 5 which had already had a replacement engine fitted. It had a downpipe and was boost creeping up to 1.5 bar at the top end, on a turbo that was too small. The ECU was not listening for knock up there, the fuel pump was faulty, the lambda voltage was ZERO with this combination on a new lambda sensor. That means it was probably leaner than 15:1 AFR. New fuel pump and the offending DP removed and the car was a happy bunny again - dropping to 1 bar at the top, lambda voltage suggestive of 10:1 or so, no detonation whatsoever.

To me a lot of turbo cars have a big weakness - they run open loop fuelling with no feedback as to the mixture (which could be faulty because of an injector, fuel pump or MAF sensor for example). The only way they would know anything was wrong was from the knock sensor, which doesn't work as well or at all at high RPM. So a car can run really well at high RPM when it is lean and advanced, and the ECU really has no way of knowing.

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but if I was designing a factory turbo car, I would have a suitable wideband in it which the ECU checked all the time, even on full boost, and it would have a knock detection system that worked per cylinder up to the red line, and the ECU would also monitor EGT and fuel pressure too. There are enough protection mechanisms in modern cars to make this very easy.... but I perhaps digress, and without a full understanding of the new age ECUs maybe I underestimate them... but them why do cars blow up?

Dave T-S

marklemac
The PPP WON'T be withdrawn, so you can figure the rest out


[Edited by Dave T-S - 2/21/2003 8:19:58 PM]

Simon Lines

John Banks - Nail + Head = Smack, straight on it.

Plus in some cases non standard filters throwing their oily, non-filtering oar in and induction kits that compound the possible oil / non-filtering problems with their own lean out problems.

Simon

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

sorry couldn't keep away peeps getting shafted warrantee vioded because of B/Box makes my blood Boil

As I think has been said before "They" IM's veiwpiont(and would also like us all to think) is in the majority of cases the leaning out is due to "US" modding Blame fitment of back/box I agreed with a possibility of induction kits though. Consenous is "they" believe they were kits on there, but removed after the POP.

To put the "Cat among the pigeons"

I'll start a new thread called "STi7 Bang and it was standard"

Might even get to 3 pages

Tony

johnfelstead

Questions for Simon Lines.

What is the flow rate of a standard STi7/8 Pump as measured in the return line from the FPR to the tank with the engine idleing and the pump at 100% voltage feed?
What is the flow rate of a PPP STi8 Pump as measured in the return line from the FPR to the tank with the engine idleing and the pump at 100% voltage feed?
What is the reason for the STi8 PPP fuel pump swap?
Why was the STi7 Fuel pump not replaced yet the STi8 Fuel pump is with the PPP, what is the fuelling requirement diferences between the two kits.
Is the power output the same for STi7 and STi8 PPP?
Are you going to recall all STi7 PPP and install an STi8 PPP pump?
Are you going to recall all piggyback STi7 PPP and install ECUTEK reprogrammed ECU's?

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John,
Not sure but IMHO STi8PPP has to better than STi7PPP

Each year there would HAVE to be an improvement or the STi7 owners would say why change it's no better

[Edited by T5NYW - 2/22/2003 6:03:23 PM]

Simon Lines

O come on John, what do you really expect me to say to you? I can't answer your questions and you know I can't so why ask them (and in such an agressive way too....)

Like Mike, I come on here to help were I can, defend our work were I can and show another route were I see one.

In another post you ask me to prove my claims, John, I don't need to, the product in question is part of a kit that's signed off and warranty covered. I just gave the info because I thought the guy would find it interesting, but as I said in the other post, your welcome at Warwick, personal invite, from me to you and I'll try and explain a little of what we do there to you

Cheers

Simon

[Edited by Simon Lines - 2/22/2003 2:41:59 AM]

Dave T-S

Felstie
Give Simon a break, mate Why not ask him the meaning of life, too

And you haven't even got an STi MY02 PPP, either - I have, and i'm not worried - IT'S FULLY WARRANTED

Remember my quote on page 8 or so:




[Edited by Dave T-S - 2/22/2003 8:11:17 AM]

wacky.banana

JohnF,

There's no way you are going to get Simon or Mike to answer those questions. Although I sometimes find these guys input leaving me with more questions than answers, provided they can broadly point our thinking in the right direction then that's fine by me.

Dave-TS has put up another of his nod/nod/wink/wink responses elswehere in this thread re the fuel pump issue being sorted soon (or words to that effect). I tend not to be too happy with the rumour mill but considering that Dave has had a good slapping off forum members (bet he wishes it was the wife doing it, LOL ) a few times for doing this I guess he would not say the fuel pump issue is about to be resolved if he did not have good reason for sayng so (unless he's a masochist and just lurves a good slapping).

Maybe its watch this space time. Clearly if people have an issue with the pump on a standard car, which they can demonstrate, then perhaps they should be pressing their dealer to make some sort of accomodation for them. My dealership are quite reasonable people, perhaps that is unusual in the Scooby/IM world.

If you have an issue with the pump on a non-standard car, then knowing what you now know via this thread, why not get on and sort it yourself? This cannot be IM's problem as the overall design of the car, on which the pump is based, has been compromised, if the car has been modified in any way.

Harsh view perhaps, if we are only talking about a backbox change, but I can understand that view.

WB

mutant_matt

What makes you think he doesn't get a regular slapping from Carolyn then? No comment......

Matt

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Simon,
Sorry I think we have met previously but unable to remember names and faces due to being brain dead.
it was either

at The January NEC motorsport show, were you on the desk of the Prodrive stand??

Or when my car was tested at Warick and Mike took me round the Rally circiut

Tony

[Edited by T5NYW - 2/22/2003 6:00:44 PM]

MTR

I posted this on here
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=180031

Without wanting to put the cat among the pigeons, as they say, I have just had the PPP kit fitted to my STi7, last week, and it had a 'performance fuel pump' fitted as part of the kit.
Part Number 44S/T5/001 in 'performance by Prodrive' box.

I know exactly what is fitted to my car, no guesswork, no opinion, just FACT.

I have got my old pump in the new Prodrive box.

The high performance pump is encased in a black foam rubber sound insulating material. The std pump does not have the foam covering, so its easy to tell them apart.


Edited after reading Dave T-S;s comments on page 7, regrading ECUtek flash remaps and uprated pumps on later STi7 PPP kits, in lieu of piggyback boards on the ECU and std fuel pump.
Perhaps thats what's fitted on mine?

Cheers MTR




[Edited by MTR - 2/22/2003 11:21:17 PM]

russell hayward

Does anyone know how to gain access to the fuel pump ?

MTR

Russel,
Remove back seat base and back, (6 off 12mm headed bolts)
Remove drivers side oval acces panel in boot (4 off self tappers)
Remove electrical plug from top plate
Remove 3 off pipes on top of pump/sender unit top plate (2 have spring clips, the third has a bayonet fitting, just pull th eouter sleeve, it is pressurised and WILL leak fuel, so have rag handy to mop up)
Remove 10 off nuts,either 10mm or 5/16" AF I cannot remember,
Carefully remove pump/sender unit chassis, rotating carefully so not to damage sender unit float and arm.

Cheers MTR



[Edited by MTR - 2/22/2003 9:43:05 PM]

russell hayward

That was quick, thanks !

It looks like a major ICE out job for me then.

Thanks again

MTR

Russel,
The access panel is immediately behind the seat back.
You don't need to remove the pump/sender unit assembly, just shine a torch (NOT A MAINS POWERED INSPECTION LAMP, AS THEY CAN BLOW BULBS, AND THEN ITS BIG BANG TIME) into the tank, and look at the pump at the bottom of the steel channel assembly.
Its about 4" long X 1.5" diameter cylinder shaped unit.

Edited to correct my poor typing.

Cheers MTR

[Edited by MTR - 2/22/2003 9:33:02 PM]

dazevo

hello john i am completly behind you on this and the questions asked ive got the experiance of owning a melted sti7 and it aint much fun just got mine back from 1k service after rebuild and this car is superb it really is very very good but some one must act on this melted piston problem i picked my car up yesterday and asked if ive had a new upgrade fuel pump fitted and was told no!so i replied i will probley be back soon for another new block i just think its time this prob was sorted out nearly every one i know who ownes or owned a scoob drive the nuts out of these cars and the vast majority of them love these cars but there is a prob with the sti7 ppp its a fantastic car but its got its problems so why does,nt im or pd sort some thing out they are obviously monitoring this board plus dealer reports. ps the sti7 is a superb car and a very big thank you to listers for doing a vey good job on my own motor cheers daz ...............

wacky.banana

Matt,

LOL at Dave's (alleged) predeliction

[Edited by wacky.banana - 2/22/2003 11:30:46 PM]

russell hayward

MTR

I will leave all the hard work to my dealer, but I have a rather large sub-box sat on the access panels, hence my previous post.

LitchfieldImports

Maybe people with MY02 PPP's will have the pumped changed at their next service, saves the any problems with PR I know a number of companies that have done that.

Iain

[Edited by iainlit - 2/23/2003 1:14:57 AM]

Dave T-S

So the cat is out of the bag on the fact that there is now a new pump in the MY02 STi PPP kit as well as the MY03

I know that Days of Chelmsford have already been supplying a new pump with their PPP kit for some while, and other dealers might have been doing the same too

Ok, I don't think it will hurt to post this now - and to head off any more potential moans - please note if you have a MY02 STi PPP without a new pump having been supplied with the kit, your dealer will be contacting you to tell you to come back and have a new pump fitted FOC

Don't be surprised if your dealer doesn't know about it yet, as the pumps are only just about now in stock at Subaru UK.

Note - please do not nag Prodrive about this as it will be carried out by the dealer that supplied your PPP.

We can then go out and drive the cars and enjoy them even more