DarrenC

Matt,

I have a very good relationship with my local dealer, but as you quite rightly said, perhaps a bit of artistic licence.

The dealer maid a very specific point of saying that the Sti7 that Prodrive had bought to the dealer was running an Sti8 PPP pack.

I dont know if this would make any difference to the power avaliable (wouldn't have thought so), but take my word for it, that the entire converstaion circled around the Sti8 PPP fitted to the 7!!

Darren

scoobyslut

Er, why is it then that PPP kits for 2003 MY turbo's have a modified fuel pump added to the supplier kit. As a freind of mine had a kit fitted by a dealer recently, as he complained about the noise from the pump, which he never heard before the kit was fitted. he was then told that due to the new pump was a "high flow/pressure" pump, sent as part of the new kits, so yes, why are they not upgrading the earlier kits to stop/prevent the starvation the earlier ones suffered from, causing the engines to run lean and burn pistons???

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Scoobyslut.
Talking at a meet Today with a few Peeps and had some Emails also. The views/consensce is that any STI7 PPP fitted now(may) be fitted with Upgade Pump and also old PPP ones will come in for upgrade.
Most peeps who have had failiures experience best performance of the Scoob prior to Failure

IMHO

This could be due to the Fuel Pump shorting injectors of fuel and leaning out mixture. then POP

or,

Due to the boost valve stuck on boost and didn't shut of boost

Tony

LitchfieldImports

Daz, As you are in Worcester why don't you pop down to Powerstation as they will gladly test your pump for you.

Regards

Iain

www.litchfieldimports.co.uk

[Edited by iainlit - 2/18/2003 9:27:16 AM]

pat

I believe that the fuel pump issue is *NOT* an IM problem, but a Prodrive one. In standard trim the STi VII / VIII does not make sufficient boost at high RPM, and because of this and the restrictive exhaust system, it simply doesn't flow enough air to require a level of fuel delivery that will overwhelm the standard pump. The pump is perfectly adequate for the standard vehicle.

Saying that the pump isn't up to the job of running the PPP is like saying that a stock gearbox won't be able to hold the 600-700 lb/ft that my engine will deliver, so therefore it must be Subaru's fault for not fitting a stronger gearbox, rather than my fault for fitting an engine that produces three times the stock torque. In a similar way it's Prodrive's "fault" for raising the fuel requirements in their upgrade package, and therefore the onus should be on them to correct any shortcomings in the original specification to allow the vehicle to run safely. It should come as no surprise then, that they are supplying such a pump as part of the MY03 PPP.

For what it's worth, the symptoms described above with regard to the car feeling hesitant just below 6000 RPM and then suddenly going like stink is exactly what I saw on an STi VII with a set of after market headers; the ECU was pulling timing, the revs were *dropping* with foot to floor, the engine was detting, then all of a sudden the ECU stuffed in an extra 10 degrees advance and the engine stopped detting and the car shot off.... weirdest thing I've ever seen! Sadly I didn't log the fuel pump duty during that run I'll have to have another close look at the datalogs, but if memory does not deceive me, the Lambda readings were off the scale (ie extremely rich) throughout.

Just out of curiosity, the stock fuel map shows an AFR of about 8.92:1 at the very top, full power mixture is about 12.3:1, full power lean is 13:1. I can only imagine that the 8.92:1 figure is either because a) they want the fuel to cool the piston crowns or b) the stock pump was running out of puff; I would tend toward the former, it's an old trick (just think about big power Cossies), and it's cheaper for the manufacturer than fitting a bigger intercooler, more appropriately sized turbo, water injection etc; it's more expensive for the user (uses more fuel) and the environment (more emissions)...

The increase in perceived performance as the pump runs out of puff is down to the AFR leaning out from 8.92:1 toward the power range, so the leaner it gets the more power it makes (but also, the hotter the pistons get, and soon it will start detting, then it's game over).

Cheers,

Pat.

Big Goon

From an e-mail sent to me by Mike Wood, so don't believe the 320bhp cobblers that the dealer said.

He did mention the '02 cars and fuel pump issue, but told me he could not officially comment until given the nod from IM.

Deep Singh

Patrick did you pick up my reg?

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Pat,

Piont Taken
You did mention, what most do, just before the big bang that 6krpm and BIG pull then POP. Are there other possibilities bar from Fuel Pump ???

DAz,
Sorry I didn't get to say goodbye but got yaking and getting Tongue pie from the freezing cold missus Email me

Tony,

Simon Lines

9 pages... Doing well, anyone want to make it 10?

Steve A

Perhaps a comment from the 'horses mouth' will get us to 10 Simon!!!!

Simon Lines

02MY STi PPP - Goes pretty well, 03MY STi PPP - Goes pretty well too. Both are covered by the 3 year / 60k thingy...

How's that?

Simon

[Edited by Simon Lines - 2/16/2003 8:33:14 PM]

el fi

i dont know if this will take it to ten pages, but are we talking jdms as well?it seems to me i cannot do any normal mods suck/blow
without another issue coming into play.

Dave T-S

LOL at Simon

Fits in with my strategy - get in it, drive it hard but sympathetically, if it goes pop take it to the nearest dealer and get it fixed under warranty

mutant_matt

Tony,

I've read your post a couple of times now and I'm still not certain what you are saying! I doubt Simon has the time or inclination to decode it......

Matt

Dave T-S

Matt

It was clear to me

Note Tony's post was at 3am - either acohol influenced or magic mushrooms I guess

Phil Harrison

T5NYW

1. Re-read posts about STi8/PPP fuel pumps, information which is in the public domain if correctly reported (I haven't checked). Draw your own conclusions.
2. Re-read Dave T-S's earlier posts including smilies.
3. Judge when to speak to your dealer.

When my STi7 goes to S-UK for suspension work (next week?), I shall ask for a fuel pump upgrade while they have it. I will report back the reaction.

Phil

dazevo

Phil bin there done that they told me they would have to chase this so called rumour up with IM and this is on a car that has just had a new block because of piston meltdown

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Matt,
Dave T-s was closer to the truth and I don't partake in magic mushrooms.

STI7PPP

Phil,
If someone (daz) had a engine PoP can't get any joy, what hope do Mr Average have. "Fuel Pump replacement" "you must be off scoobynet" Ho Ho Ho. I'll replace it right now for you Sir

Mr Prodrive does seemed to be a bit amused by 'how many pages about a Fuel Pump'!!! So why are Prodrive fitting them with the STi8 PPP ???? Better value for money, they had a left over batch they didn't know what to do with. I think not

pat

Tony,

I'm still trying to get my head round the datalog I have of the engine going loopy, when I do, perhaps I can come up with an alternate explanation, or perhaps I will reach the same conclusion as before..... If memory serves, the IDCs were pretty high at that point, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the pump was running out of puff!

Cheers,

Pat.

Dave T-S

STi7PPP
Trust me

scoobyslut

I suppose its a case of waiting for Prodrive to sort, rather than an IM fix, being as they supply Im with the kit they developed. Must admit though, cant see why they cant do a "quick fix", knowing that the new 03 my's need a high pressure pump, and the fact that the 02's were demising due to fuel pressure loss, or rather the lack of...
Or is it, how many engine failures will it take for them to react.

mutant_matt

I guess it depends on how many have been attributed to the Fuel Pump. Officially at this point, I beleive that figure is zero!

Matt.

mutant_matt

Oh look Simon,

10 pages....

Matt

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Pat,
Thanks for last reply I am doing an SN internet learning course on Turbo charging LOL

To all Tuners ( Don't want to keep picking on Pat but only one I can remember)

With STi7's going POP and 'WE'/'They' can only sumise the causes quite a few things could have the simular results. A bit like Crop Circles untill you capture one being made no real proof. IMHO Subaru sumise the owners have fitted NOS, Filters,Decat, Dawes and Turbos or Non OEM cup holders but removed after the Bang

Q1)You use a term Standard Headers what are they ??

Q2) 'Hypothetically' A STi7PPP and all STD with Delta Dash or Equivilent connected during a run and it went POP(Pats run only had a annomoly) should and could the cause be easily determined? Would Fuel Pressure and boost pressure etc be captured?

With PPP, I think the Boost pressure can't be seen properly, as this is the means by which it manipulates the ECU. The pressure is seen in peaks and lows instead of curve. (Unless an extra anologue pressure sensor was fitted IIRC)
I persume that the 'low' dwell time would be just great enough to get the actuator to increase boost, And the peak time long enough to use the correct Map AFR, But not too long as to activate Boost spike protection.( we called them deglitch times)


Q3) Would the output times of boost controller actuator be captured?

Q4) In PLC programming the processor has certain Clock speeds, and can only handle a certain amounts of info per/sec, if a signal is = to or greater than (I have experienced this but in factory applications with high sped counters) it could possible to miss-interpet the signals. As this would be at it's busyest time data wise, Can the ECU cope with these new instructions ?


my Piont being, if possible

If it saw it as all lows, could it do the worst case senario, 10 degrees more advance, no boost cutback, 2.2 bar car flies and melts piston?
or
If it saw all highs, could it retard it 10 degrees, shut down boost to safe 0.8 bar and no Detting and poor performance in 6th ( which I believe happened to me or did the fuel pump just run out of puff but didn't lean out)

Tony

Edited to say sorry about the poor Techy content, I have my flame suit ready, Again. Matts going to kill me if he see's me Come on chaps at least I am trying (O/K very trying) Sorry if loads of you think I write a load of old **** and talking out my own **** but I probably am. BUT if you don't ask.........


[Edited by T5NYW - 2/19/2003 3:38:01 AM]

DarrenC

T5NYW,

The only bit of your post I can answer is that a header is the exhaust manifold(s) ( I Think)

Darren

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

DarrenC.
Many thanks

I am retiring from this thread, while I am still sane we got to 10 pages to cheer Simon up and hide lots of interesting facts in the mean time If like most(including me) you can't bebothered to read the 10 pages of replies, just read the ones by PAT PowerEngineering, Trouser TSL, Richib PowerStation, John Banks, and Pete Croney IIRC

On a personal note
I wouldn't worry too much about the issues raised here most peep here have their fun in 4th and don't take there cars into High numbers in 5th, so pump, should never cause you an issue Thoose who do, have a 50/50 chance, it backs off or leans out and pop IMHO
By all the winks and nods seems like that Prodrive will do something for the STi7 so hang on tight

Regards

Tony

Going to eat some Magic mushrooms and Chill

mutant_matt

Tony,

It wears me out just reading your posts.....

Matt

Dave T-S

Tony
Waaaaay too late for that matey

STI7PPP

I reckon he's really Bruce Willis from "The Conspiracy Theory" or was it "Armageddon" LOL