correct me if I am wrong but didnt pat get himself an angkle removed TD05 about 18 months ago?

 

Don't know about the others but my comments are related to my TD05/06 hybrid fitted to a scoob

Pat re:
By doing your homework and by careful selection of compressor and turbine it is possible to improve on the above perception by a some considerable margin..........even on a scoob without VVT !



[Edited by Andy.F - 1/21/2003 3:06:24 PM]

 

Andy,

can you get a 25g to fit or is it simply miles off?

I remember RC developments suggesting I use one on my project engine.

 

I am really NOT happy to read some of you lads posts here lately.
The key thing we're discussing here is called PROGRESS...

Improving things is a NATURAL thing, and the regular way of life ffs!

If recent finds have proven the older TD05's superiour to the VF hybrids - shouldn't we all be happy for that INSTEAD of blaming dealers who previously sold the best bits available AT THE TIME?

I am POSITIVE that the suppliers of hybrid turbos will move on to these new findings, and continue to provide us with superiour hardware.


This discussion could've been VERY interesting.

Sincerely

/Jerry

 

...and hasn't a certain supplier had the front entry conversion td05's available for some time?
Couldn't the reason for recommending VF hybrids be that they've worked well, and delivered the goods so far?

However - it all boils down to this:

* The VF hybrids were thought to be the best to get for some time.
* The TD05 jobbies have been an UNPROVEN thing - until recently (and I still think we need more testing on those).

I really don't get the thing with you limeys...

/J - still happy with the crappy 304.

 

Just to throw a little firework in to the bonfire.

I used to run an MD304 with an P18 exhaust housing that was ported.

Mark A. mapped this engine setup, to be a held 1.6 Bar all the way to the red line.

I never had the car on rollers with this setup, but put it like this, I gave up racing cars as I became bored, and went up against bikes instead.

Dan

 

Has anyone actually tried pushing the stock or making hybrid new IHI VF series turbo ? seems to be working better than the earlier VF 22,23,24,28 and 29. The exhaust housing design of the IHI VF 30 and 34 is better and would seem to be superior to the older ones.
Although the STi ver 7 has a different engine, and most important variable valve timing, Pat has already been able to get some decent power of the smallest available IHI VF turbo on the new age cars, the VF 35 with the P15 housing. I am really looking forward at what can he get with a JDM STi ver 7 that comes with a VF 30 with the latest P18 housing, this should give a good idea of what are this new turbo's capable of in their std. form (since the VF 34 is just a roller bearing version of the VF 30).
Even the rally teams are now using the VF34 as their turbo of choice for grp. N and grp. A clubman applications.

 

Certainly Danny your turbo sounds like a totally different animal to the one I had and the P20 version of the same on another car. I gather that Turbo Dynamics say that in no way is the MD304 remotely a 400 BHP turbo, so what was your extra third of a bar doing? If it makes 350 BHP at 1.25 bar, then why not knocking on the door of 400 BHP at 1.6 bar because if the turbo is efficient at high revs at that boost it should be.... something doesn't add up, did we really have the same turbo? Anyone got any near to 400 BHP results from an MD304? We have a TD05 at 369 BHP at 1.5 bar at peak power so far, and the best I've heard confirmed from the MD304 is about 350 BHP....

VF30 hybrids have been tried last year and were not very good.

[Edited by john banks - 1/21/2003 3:50:11 PM]

 

S A M - TD05's in 90 degree or front entry flavour have been proven for years. The rally guys love them and the auzzies love them. I was told by a contributor to this very post that a front entry TD05 was capable of around 400bhp....and that was a year ago !
It has been common knowledge for years that you can run the TD05 without a dump valve for example, where a VF22/23 etc would just blow apart.

There is nothing new here.

IMHO The VF's and their hybrids have been over-rated. Simple as that !

 

The most powerful WRX to come out of the factory with full warranty, which hasn't had much attention at least on this board is the S202, which came with 320ps and this was using a VF34 turbo. Probably the next generation of twin scroll IHI turbos will have far more potential.

I am not a pro IHI or anti TD (Mitsubishi) turbo, I think that there is a turbo for each application.

Also comparing turbo boxer engines with inline 4 design isn't fair either, I am convinced that inline 4 motors can make more power than Subaru's flat four, this is mainly because that by far more R&D money has been spent on the inline 4 engine design by most manufacturers against the R&D money that Subaru or Porsche have placed on theirs. Same goes to IHI VF series vs. TD 04,05 and 06's which have had far more development done on them, if you don't believe so just surf on the web for TD hybrids and you will find a ton of them available especially on the US.

Carlos H.

 

Carlos and what is your turbo of choice

 

Garrett

BTW (I meant when I was talking about R&D money, I obviously implied that most of the car manufacturer giants use the 4 in line engine design)

 

Tell the truth now or I'll quote one of your Emails

 

Andy - I was talking about us mere mortals. The td05 hasn't been that common on tuned road going scoobs now has it?

I'd love to give a td05 a try (mainly because of the "sans bov" thing ), since it'll give similar output (or even perhaps better) than the current 304 - and a lower spool up point (this has not been proven yet on my specific setup).

I do however find this aggressiveness (due to lack of a better word) very strange indeed.



I thought evolution was a good thing?



/J

[Edited by SecretAgentMan - 1/21/2003 4:23:43 PM]

 

I love using antilag, and so far my experience with antilag + VF series turbos has not been very nice. Andy, like I told u before for motorsport events, especially those were you don't need the use of a air restrictor I would go for a TD05-16g (no BOV + anitlag ).
But I hope that you guys try the VF 34, it may be a lot better than most people would expect, and finally get it on the rolling dyno to compare it against other turbos some nice numbers may result, like I said it would be nice to hear of Pat's results with a JDM STi ver 7 with just the usual exhaust mods.
Sadly we don't have a dyno over here so I cannot post any results on my VF34

Carlos H.

 

/J Is your set up not similar to J Banks's ? Have you read his comments re the swap ?

 

I don't think he's running a linked car with an iON 4-1 is he?



/J

 

Dowser is running a Maxim manifold and TD05 and is getting good results.

 

John,

didn't you think the MD304 was the best thing since sliced bread when you got it

Anyway - I am not sure anyone has rated the MD304 as a 400bhp turbo - as you say yourself - it was not recommended to run that extra level of boost you tried. So it would seem a little unfair to criticise on that basis.

Also regarding the ported wastegate - boost control can be improved but you do need a very strong actuator - my MD309 was given an uprated actuator by my supplier when the original was too weeny.

If you wanted an MD30...to create 400bhp - then the 309 would have been the turbo to go for as you were buying a VF series at the time - and I am sure you know that.

Yes, progress is progress, and things move on. But I think Pat had a front entry conversion TD05 a long time ago - so it isn't so new.

I had the same issues with my MD254 - but would I say it was a bad turbo - absolutely not - its on road characteristics were fabulous - and for a short period it was on a the most powerful Scoob ever run at Power Engineering - a few bhp up on even Bobs car with a similar set up. I ran it for a long time on road and track and loved it. But hey - another year on and my needs and desires change but that doesn't write off history or make it bad. And I would certainly recommend that turbo to anyone who wanted a fast road car up to 350bhp.

And for some people a good driveable road car with 350bhp remains a desireable dream.

Sunday will be interesting as a car with an MD195 (basically similar spec to MD309) will be running and I believe it has all the boost the owner wants

Trout

 

Yes I did think it was good initially David as I said at the top of my post, until I tried to get more than 1.3 bar out of it at peak power and blew one up and then couldn't get the second one to make more power. The unanswered question remains that I was told it was 1.8 bar capable... like saying this car is capable of 200 mph as far as I am concerned. If it is not recommended to run more than 1.3 bar at the top why was I told that it could run 1.8 bar happily? Who can tell me what this 0.5 bar of headroom is supposed to achieve? The truth of it might be that with a P20 housing it might support 1.8 bar, but that involves more lag which is clearly unnecessary lag when you consider the competition. I believe an MD304 is just acceptable in terms of lag and boost threshold for road use. The P20 version I drove was borderline in my opinion, but the owner had specced it for track use as that is where his car is used. If I knew it would stop making more power over 1.3 bar I would not have bought it. As it was I thought I was buying a 1.8 bar at the top end turbo - in other words something that you could use to go silly with on an EJ20 rebuild. I'd played with enough small turbos before this one to want something with reserve. Perhaps I wasn't explicit enough with what I wanted, and indeed I probably only did want 350 BHP when I bought it, but the extra 0.5 bar capability was involved in the purchasing decision.

If you specced something and you thought it had a massive reserve of capacity then you would feel good using it, you would think it would have an easy time and would work very efficiently. When you start to use some of it and it blows up your faith goes out the window in the product.

 

John,

just out of interest - when you pushed the turbo to get more power at the top end - did you have a replacement inlet pipe that could flow the air.

One thing with standard VF hybrids is that the standard inlet pipe will only flow enough air for around 350bhp - try to hard to get boost up there and the turbo will feel a little stressed!

I have experienced this with both my MD254 and the MD309 and have seen it on other cars with MD195s which are more than capable of 400bhp - but struggle to get 350+ with the standard pipe.

Oh - and just one more thing - was the MD304 the turbo you originally got for free as part of the development of it that you decided to buy as it was so good - or was that a different turbo?

Trout

 

I had the factory inlet pipe, but I also have the same with the TD05 and that seems to not have the same issues of holding boost. I have a large bore pipe which will be fitted soon.

However, the car with the P20 turbo DID have the inlet pipe and also struggled at the top end and made less power than mine with the P18, so there is more to it than just an inlet pipe.

Still no-one can tell me what the 0.5 bar is for. I don't believe that the factory inlet pipe will flow air for 350 BHP at 1.3 bar (ie it must not be too inefficient) and then suddenly add on a shed load of restriction when you try and get another 20 BHP's worth of air through it with a higher pressure. It would more be a case that the pressure drop would slowly increase. A certain Australian tuner who makes claimed 500 BHP+ turbos says that the inlet pipe is not a significant restriction. Maybe that is stretching things and is said because they don't make one I obviously do not believe this otherwise I would not have bought one. But I don't think you can say it suddenly saturates at 350 BHP, unless you are going to rewrite the physics of airflow and pressure.

The tester was a TD04L hybrid, which I paid costs for, plus I collected data and gave free advertising for it, even if only one other or so was sold. I sold it for less than I paid for it.

 

trout, who exactly is pulling your strings??????????????????

 

Here are my MD304 (RED) and TD05 (GREEN) performance graphs from AP22 datalogging.

Same car, same driver, same day, same fuel, same fuel and ignition maps, same boost (1.4 bar dropping to 1.25 at the very top), not launched in 1st gear, same AP22 parameters. The only difference in the maps was that the TD05 map needed lower maximum duty cycles to achieve the same boost targets.

Note that the MD304 had previously produced more power than this at 1.3 bar, but this is a direct comparison with as close as we could control the parameters. It is not OEM quality data, but it backs up the on the road impressions of the TD05's superiority over the MD304, AND I AM PRESENTING DATA TO BACK UP WHAT I HAVE OBSERVED

Note the scale on the distance covered and see what the difference is at the end of a 1/4 mile. The mph difference is small but agrees with the power and distance differences.

Observe the difference in lag between gearchanges (repeatable) and the way the TD05 pulls away steadily across all the gears. This was not the MD304's best since with a 1.3 bar boost curve it actually made more power, but a direct comparison with the TD05.

MD304 RED
TD05 GREEN


POWER AT WHEELS


MPH


DISTANCE

 

Scoobert,

I am quite capable of pulling my own strings thank you. And if you want to get personal just let us know who you are. OK!

John,

it is interesting that VF turbos have a real problem with the inlet pipe. On another Sti V with an MD195 - boost was really being held down at 1.25/1.3bar at the top end. This was actually true with a number of VF turbos - but now with a new inlet pipe the turbo is magically freed to produce considerably more than 1.5bar right to the red line.

Another tuner on here also had the same problem with his design of VF hybrid and changed the inlet pipe (again Sti V) - hey presto lots of boost at the top end.

In my own experience - trying to set high boost targets with the standard inlet pipe above 6,000rpm on these turbos would seem to be a recipe for stressing them - why I have no idea. This was with two completely different VF hybrids - different tuning objectives and from two completely different suppliers. And given that I have only seen this on three separate Sti Vs, with VF hybrids from three different suppliers - where the pipe was the issue - I can only conclude that the turbos were not at fault.

Trout



[Edited by Trout - 1/21/2003 10:29:57 PM]

 

David

The car with the P20 John is referring to is mine.

At Well Lane 3 my graph climbed to approximately 5000rpm then stayed flat to the redline.

To be fair regards my power, my boost on that day dropped from 21psi peak to 16psi at the redline. With that in mind a figure of 340BHP wasn't too shabby. The other thing to bear in mind is i used a Dawes device cause i hadn't enough time to sort out boost control using the Link.

After that though...i then tried to achieve my aim of 1.5 bar boost from mid range to redline using the Link which couldn't be achieved.

At the time it was deemed to be the inlet pipe which was the restriction. This was attended to by making up my own which has smooth curves, no abuttments protruding from it and tapers down to the diameter of the compressor inlet.

Testing didn't highlight any significant improvement, so it was thought, maybe the up-pipe was the issue. Fitted one of Tim Whiteside's examples and once again, on my car, no change of any significance was noted.

All this time, since Well Lane 3 i have been in contact with the turbo supplier to rectify these issues and to date, that hasn't been achieved, though i believe we are nearly there. Certainly hope so.

John Banks had an issue with boost control of being unable to achieve 1.5 bar at the top end with ease. Exactly the same issue as I.
At the present time it would appear that the wastegate on my ported P20 housing is too large to allow correct boost control.

Tried the larger actuator thing, even up to having it tightened up to 25psi crack pressure , but still the best i achieved was 1.2 bar at the top end.

Alan

[Edited by AlanG - 1/21/2003 10:42:17 PM]

 

What rating actuator did you use.

Mine was 1.2 bar spring but even tightening to 25psi i still couldn't achieve 1.5 bar at the top end.

Alan

 

Alan,

obviously can't comment on your car - but I do know you thought you were quite quick driving home that day

Just commenting on what I have seen on others

See you Saturday?

Trout

 

Certainly felt quick on the day.

The torque figure of 325Ibft i felt was good for a crappy VF but subsequent work on the car highlighted issues with the MD305.

It was originally specced for 1.5 bar from midrange to redline. At the time i reckoned on about 350BHP, basing my guess on what else had been achieved to date by others, yourself included.
Ironically this turbo can achieve 350 at ease at much less boost pressure than the original 1.5 bar spec.

If you look at the power of my car. 340BHP at 16psi is pretty good i reckon. And approx 320BHP at 5252 is a tractable road car. All IMVHO.

Dunno about seeing you on Saturday unless you fancy going out for a pint the night beforehand but will definitely meet up with you on Sunday.

Alan

 

Alan,

rotflmao - obviously so keen to get there.

Trout