Problems with STi7 PPP
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Daz sorry to hear about your engine.Is'nt this the third STi UK with PPP thats popped a piston? Just before Xmas there was some guy and Aaron Bird who had had a similar experience.Thats at least 3 PPPs gone bang,out of a max of a few hundred in a couple of months.Something is not right......
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Deep i totally agree with you m8 i have been luckey enough to have owned high performance cars for the last ten years and never experienced a car behaving like this lumpy at low revs hesitation at high revs sumut aint rite hope fully mine will be sorted after the rebuild if not i will seek legal advice on where i stand i mean when its running right i get as much fun,buzz as my last motor an evo6 daz..
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The hesitation on mine seems to have gone in the last few days.I haven't had a reset or anything but filled up with a tank of optimax (which pre PPP didnt seem to suit the car) it now pulls cleanly to the red line.
Dont the cars loves the cold weather, I cant believe how quick it feels at the moment! shame the grips not there to exploit it better!
Sorry to hear of your problems dazevo hope its sorted soon.
I am very pleased I've stuck with keeping my warrenty intact, apart from the inconvenience, at least if there is a problem then it will not cost me, I hate to think what a new engine would cost!
Dont the cars loves the cold weather, I cant believe how quick it feels at the moment! shame the grips not there to exploit it better!
Sorry to hear of your problems dazevo hope its sorted soon.
I am very pleased I've stuck with keeping my warrenty intact, apart from the inconvenience, at least if there is a problem then it will not cost me, I hate to think what a new engine would cost!
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From: MY99UK-MY02STi-MY99Type R-MY06 T20-MY11 340R-MY05 TYPE25
Daz,
I have had a few problems with my Email lately
t5nyw@aol.com is the only one working at present 
I don't get hesitation, more like it's not sure if it wants to be at 2.45krpm or 2.5Krpm but thats only on Optimax, never ever did it with other brands of SUL
but otherwise it goes really well 
The manual says the tyres should last 20Kmiles whooooops not quite 7Kmiles
I did come around a corner once hitting limiter in 5th
then into 6th on the straight but didn't seem to have the same pull as 4th & 5th. Must have been getting to close to boost shutdown. Happy as a Pig in ............
Tony
see you soon
I have had a few problems with my Email lately
t5nyw@aol.com is the only one working at present I don't get hesitation, more like it's not sure if it wants to be at 2.45krpm or 2.5Krpm but thats only on Optimax, never ever did it with other brands of SUL
but otherwise it goes really well The manual says the tyres should last 20Kmiles whooooops not quite 7Kmiles I did come around a corner once hitting limiter in 5th
then into 6th on the straight but didn't seem to have the same pull as 4th & 5th. Must have been getting to close to boost shutdown. Happy as a Pig in ............Tony
see you soon
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From: London
Pete,
The graph you were talking about (in it's latest incarnation including Paul's STi with full P75 and Tek3) is here:
As an interesting aside, last week I filled up for the first time with something other than Optimax (in this case Esso Super) and the car started hesitating quite badly. The car was warm and the weather cold and when I opened it up, it was quite bad so I didn't push it much further. I switched back to Optimax and all is running well again (standard STi Type UK).
Matt
The graph you were talking about (in it's latest incarnation including Paul's STi with full P75 and Tek3) is here:
As an interesting aside, last week I filled up for the first time with something other than Optimax (in this case Esso Super) and the car started hesitating quite badly. The car was warm and the weather cold and when I opened it up, it was quite bad so I didn't push it much further. I switched back to Optimax and all is running well again (standard STi Type UK).
Matt
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From: Cornwall
scoobycar60...
strange that as mine is the reverse. pre-ppp, ran very happily indeed on optimax. post-ppp, runs lumpy indeed when cold. fine when warm, but still hesitates around 6.5K, and seems to be doing it more often now, even around 3-4K.
if it gets any worse I think it's back to the dealer to check it out.
strange that as mine is the reverse. pre-ppp, ran very happily indeed on optimax. post-ppp, runs lumpy indeed when cold. fine when warm, but still hesitates around 6.5K, and seems to be doing it more often now, even around 3-4K.
if it gets any worse I think it's back to the dealer to check it out.
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I can't believe this! It's shocking!
Prodrive took months to engineer this solution, and in the end, if the plots from Mutant_matt are accurate, they screwed-it-up completely!!!
The plots show that beyond 5800 rpm the boost control circuit is completely up ****-creak, and whilst I know a little bit about electronics, I know little about ecu's, but my guess is that it could vary the boost very widely indeed, and behave differently from engine to engine. I'd bet money that is causing the early failures, and I'm just shocked that it's the work or Prodrive.
Someone should show the plot to them for comment. I can't believe they would have signed-off on a characteristic that looked like that, it must be some after-install component failure, clearly some part of the circuit is failing at low temperature.
Prodrive took months to engineer this solution, and in the end, if the plots from Mutant_matt are accurate, they screwed-it-up completely!!!
The plots show that beyond 5800 rpm the boost control circuit is completely up ****-creak, and whilst I know a little bit about electronics, I know little about ecu's, but my guess is that it could vary the boost very widely indeed, and behave differently from engine to engine. I'd bet money that is causing the early failures, and I'm just shocked that it's the work or Prodrive.
Someone should show the plot to them for comment. I can't believe they would have signed-off on a characteristic that looked like that, it must be some after-install component failure, clearly some part of the circuit is failing at low temperature.
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If I remember rightly the software used to produce the plots does'nt necessarily read the outputs from the new ECU correctly.
Prodrive spent $$$ and months doing the PPP for the STI and Subaru then had to sign it off for warranty work. I've yet seen no proof that PPP'd cars that had engine failures did so because of the PPP, and would'nt have failed had the car remained standard.
Regardless of the methods Prodrive used to get the performance, the key fact is, is that it is fully warranted by Subaru. Had those engine failures occured with a dawes, ECUtek etc etc then those owners would be looking at hefty repair bills, rather than just a period of time without their cars.
Prodrive make the rally car(and do quite a good job of it and I know for a fact they did'nt put a YTS trainee on the job of designing the PPP for the STI and WRX. The rumoured ECTtek route is a neater solution, but when Prodrive started development of the STI PPP(no doubt before the type UK launch date) that option was more the likely not open to them.
In short, although PD may not have used the best method for doing the STI PPP I trust them to have the expertise to do a decent job of it.
Prodrive spent $$$ and months doing the PPP for the STI and Subaru then had to sign it off for warranty work. I've yet seen no proof that PPP'd cars that had engine failures did so because of the PPP, and would'nt have failed had the car remained standard.
Regardless of the methods Prodrive used to get the performance, the key fact is, is that it is fully warranted by Subaru. Had those engine failures occured with a dawes, ECUtek etc etc then those owners would be looking at hefty repair bills, rather than just a period of time without their cars.
Prodrive make the rally car(and do quite a good job of it
and I know for a fact they did'nt put a YTS trainee on the job of designing the PPP for the STI and WRX. The rumoured ECTtek route is a neater solution, but when Prodrive started development of the STI PPP(no doubt before the type UK launch date) that option was more the likely not open to them.In short, although PD may not have used the best method for doing the STI PPP I trust them to have the expertise to do a decent job of it.
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Neil, I agree with your comments.
I too have a lot of faith in Prodrive and am aware of the rigours of sign-off for warranty purposes.
That's why I added the proviso of "if the graphs are correct".
However, field-failures of certain components in a complex subsystem do occur, and I wonder if there is something like this at play here. It won't be the first time a robust design is let down by a poor infeed component.
I too have a lot of faith in Prodrive and am aware of the rigours of sign-off for warranty purposes.
That's why I added the proviso of "if the graphs are correct".
However, field-failures of certain components in a complex subsystem do occur, and I wonder if there is something like this at play here. It won't be the first time a robust design is let down by a poor infeed component.
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There were some issues with the CEL light coming on in error in a very few versions of the STI PPP ECU. I think this was traced a faulty batch of resistors(something like that), these were all replaced by PD.
I'm sure that PD and IM tested all the cars subsystems in isolation and together. The reason why the STI PPP took so long was the amount of testing it went through. I did hear rumours that the PPP was safe up until around the 330-340Bhp mark, but in order to make it ultra safe they detuned it. I often wonder why they did'nt get the extra 1 lb/ft of torque out of it to make an even 300/300 though. I suspect it jepordised their agreed safety envelope.
What we've seen from other mods however(such as decatting etc) is the the STI-7 seems to be more sensitive to mods than previous cars. In the old PPP'd car, you could add a full decat exhaust and be pretty safe in doing so. With a PPP'd STI-7 you'd probably be overboosting and spiking all over the place.
Maybe, the STI PPP runs things fairly close to the edge of this sensitivity, but in some cars the envelope is smaller than others. You are correct in saying that there are so many variables it's hard for us on the outside to gauge what the critical factors are.
Mutant_matt is the best chap to talk to about the graphs and the software. I'm only talking from vague recollection.
I'm sure that PD and IM tested all the cars subsystems in isolation and together. The reason why the STI PPP took so long was the amount of testing it went through. I did hear rumours that the PPP was safe up until around the 330-340Bhp mark, but in order to make it ultra safe they detuned it. I often wonder why they did'nt get the extra 1 lb/ft of torque out of it to make an even 300/300 though. I suspect it jepordised their agreed safety envelope.
What we've seen from other mods however(such as decatting etc) is the the STI-7 seems to be more sensitive to mods than previous cars. In the old PPP'd car, you could add a full decat exhaust and be pretty safe in doing so. With a PPP'd STI-7 you'd probably be overboosting and spiking all over the place.
Maybe, the STI PPP runs things fairly close to the edge of this sensitivity, but in some cars the envelope is smaller than others. You are correct in saying that there are so many variables it's hard for us on the outside to gauge what the critical factors are.
Mutant_matt is the best chap to talk to about the graphs and the software. I'm only talking from vague recollection.
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I still have 100% faith in PD, subaru and my local dealer but with my particular car something was or is not right as well as the lumpy hesitating prob i also some times get that massive surge of power at about 6k revs and i mean massive its pulling like a train then it just pins you in the seat till you change up but only in 4th5th&6th it seems to me like the car gets an extra surge of boost. by the way was running on optimax when it let go daz...
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Fitz
I would get it checked ASAP I've never had any hesitation 3-4000rpm
and now no hesitation at all on optimax
Pooder
I get this huge surge of power as well at 6800 to 7500... slightly scarey I am avoiding revving this high until someone explains it to me and assures me this is not massive over boost or something....I must get a GOOD boost gauge fitted soon ...any recommendations.
I would get it checked ASAP I've never had any hesitation 3-4000rpm
and now no hesitation at all on optimax
Pooder
I get this huge surge of power as well at 6800 to 7500... slightly scarey I am avoiding revving this high until someone explains it to me and assures me this is not massive over boost or something....I must get a GOOD boost gauge fitted soon ...any recommendations.
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Neil,your loyalyty to PD etc is very nice.The arguement that they have spent $$$ on development means very little as you d'ont know how much they did spend or did'nt.Good companies do not always produce good products,thats been shown time and time again.I d'ont seem to be isulting in any shape or form but to just say 'they are big,have spent lots of money,make rally cars so must be good'(not a direct quote I know) is to me little more than blind faith.Things need to be examined much more closely.
Saying that the car was good for 340 BHP but detuned is to me nonsense and a part of the pro Prodrive/IM spin that seems to come from some people on this board.340 BHP on 97 RON fuel,tmic,standard fuel pump and a VF30/35 and less than 1.45 bar boost would be difficult.
As far as I can gather there have been three cars with piston failures that we know of so far on PPP ed cars.How many PPPed cars are there ? 100? 200? Thats still a worrying number.I'm not saying it is the PPP at fault but some very serious questions need to be asked and maybe some real answers from Mike Wood.
Saying that the car was good for 340 BHP but detuned is to me nonsense and a part of the pro Prodrive/IM spin that seems to come from some people on this board.340 BHP on 97 RON fuel,tmic,standard fuel pump and a VF30/35 and less than 1.45 bar boost would be difficult.
As far as I can gather there have been three cars with piston failures that we know of so far on PPP ed cars.How many PPPed cars are there ? 100? 200? Thats still a worrying number.I'm not saying it is the PPP at fault but some very serious questions need to be asked and maybe some real answers from Mike Wood.
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Mod mode off(as was every post of mine on this thread)
DS
I'm not blindly loyal to PD or anyone else. Yes there have been(apparently) 3 failures of PPP'd cars. But what was the root cause of those failures.
For example,
was it the way the dealer fitted the PPP?
A faulty PPP at manufacture?
A design fault in the PPP?
A weakness in that particular car?
Some other unrelated cause of failure(e.g too little/much oil)
Looking at it from a problem solving standpoint, all the above factors need to be considered and weighed. The core fact is that we don't have any information, other than supposition.I realise that good companies with exceptional track records do produce duff products but to imply or state the PPP for the STI is bad product is missing out a whole range of possibilities that simply(to my knowledge) have not been explored. It's not fair to those people whos cars have failed and who may be worried to have to rely on semi investigated guesswork.
Therefore it's not PD/Subaru loyalty that made me say what I said, but a desire to see every posibility investigated equally and systematically until a root cause(and then hopefully a common cause) can be determined.
Hope this clears things up.
Mod mode on
I'm tempted to move this to drivetrain to make sure it does'nt get lost...
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/8/2003 6:28:57 PM]
DS
I'm not blindly loyal to PD or anyone else. Yes there have been(apparently) 3 failures of PPP'd cars. But what was the root cause of those failures.
For example,
was it the way the dealer fitted the PPP?
A faulty PPP at manufacture?
A design fault in the PPP?
A weakness in that particular car?
Some other unrelated cause of failure(e.g too little/much oil)
Looking at it from a problem solving standpoint, all the above factors need to be considered and weighed. The core fact is that we don't have any information, other than supposition.I realise that good companies with exceptional track records do produce duff products but to imply or state the PPP for the STI is bad product is missing out a whole range of possibilities that simply(to my knowledge) have not been explored. It's not fair to those people whos cars have failed and who may be worried to have to rely on semi investigated guesswork.
Therefore it's not PD/Subaru loyalty that made me say what I said, but a desire to see every posibility investigated equally and systematically until a root cause(and then hopefully a common cause) can be determined.
Hope this clears things up.
Mod mode on
I'm tempted to move this to drivetrain to make sure it does'nt get lost...
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/8/2003 6:28:57 PM]
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From: Glos UK. - Manufacturers of ECU Data Monitors.
scoobycar60,
I also get the surge between 6000 and 7000rpm. This has come up on ScoobyNet a couple of times before and we are not alone.
On both my Defi and my own elctronic boost gauge i see no more than 1.45 bar peak, pre PPP i was seeing 1.5 bar. From talking to several others it is thought Defi's read high ( i know they don't read in bar but it's close ) and are very sensitive so will pick up the smallest spike.
My PPP was fitted by Prodrive ( not by a Subatu dealer ) then tested on a track, the surging was evident as soon as i drove the car so assume all is ok. IMHO!!
Enjoy it, thats what the warranty is for - peace of mind.
simon
I also get the surge between 6000 and 7000rpm. This has come up on ScoobyNet a couple of times before and we are not alone.
On both my Defi and my own elctronic boost gauge i see no more than 1.45 bar peak, pre PPP i was seeing 1.5 bar. From talking to several others it is thought Defi's read high ( i know they don't read in bar but it's close ) and are very sensitive so will pick up the smallest spike.
My PPP was fitted by Prodrive ( not by a Subatu dealer ) then tested on a track, the surging was evident as soon as i drove the car so assume all is ok. IMHO!!
Enjoy it, thats what the warranty is for - peace of mind.
simon
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From: Newcastle-under-lyme
Just got home after prodrive fitted my PPP.
ooooohh myyyy god!!!!!
Nearly ran into the back of the car I was overtaking twice as the car accelerated so much faster that before, I didn't pull out fast enough. It is awesome. The noise is wonderful, the performance is like the difference between a WRX and STi. There is now so much smooth power everywhere in the rev range, no more pulling on to roundabouts and going nowhere.
Anyone want to buy an Sti backbox, only done 3,000 miles?
I briefly spoke to Mike Woods about the failures, and he feels that on each occassion the car would have failed PPP or not, I am certainly not taking my PPP off for anybody.
Asked him about wheels and tyres, he thoroughly recommends 18" wheels and tyres (as did Mark, the technician who fitted my kit) for improvements in handling, grip and ride! Yes, I did say ride. My car is quite choppy and bouncy in the ride department, apparently the Pirelli tyres have a very stiff sidewall. The 18" set-up reduces unsprung weight and IIRC has a softer sidewall.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Mike.
It was fascinating being at The Holy Grail (aka Prodrive), this was the car engineering site, not the motorsports division, however, you are confined to a reception area and canteen for 2.5-3 hours, due to the secure nature of the site. You still have a view of the road to the test-track, saw 2 STi MY03 cars, both with PPP already fitted, one in black! Also saw a new model from A.N.Other manufacturer, that is not available for some months. I won't say what it was in case I wasn't meant to have seen it, but what a fascinating place. Any chance of a guided tour SIDC???
ooooohh myyyy god!!!!!
Nearly ran into the back of the car I was overtaking twice as the car accelerated so much faster that before, I didn't pull out fast enough. It is awesome. The noise is wonderful, the performance is like the difference between a WRX and STi. There is now so much smooth power everywhere in the rev range, no more pulling on to roundabouts and going nowhere.
Anyone want to buy an Sti backbox, only done 3,000 miles?
I briefly spoke to Mike Woods about the failures, and he feels that on each occassion the car would have failed PPP or not, I am certainly not taking my PPP off for anybody.
Asked him about wheels and tyres, he thoroughly recommends 18" wheels and tyres (as did Mark, the technician who fitted my kit) for improvements in handling, grip and ride! Yes, I did say ride. My car is quite choppy and bouncy in the ride department, apparently the Pirelli tyres have a very stiff sidewall. The 18" set-up reduces unsprung weight and IIRC has a softer sidewall.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Mike.
It was fascinating being at The Holy Grail (aka Prodrive), this was the car engineering site, not the motorsports division, however, you are confined to a reception area and canteen for 2.5-3 hours, due to the secure nature of the site. You still have a view of the road to the test-track, saw 2 STi MY03 cars, both with PPP already fitted, one in black! Also saw a new model from A.N.Other manufacturer, that is not available for some months. I won't say what it was in case I wasn't meant to have seen it, but what a fascinating place. Any chance of a guided tour SIDC???
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I briefly spoke to Mike Woods about the failures, and he feels that on each occassion the car would have failed PPP or not
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I guess only Mike can answer that
I would be interested to know what avenues of thought PD and IM are going through to investigate these. It'd save a lot of speculation on here and provide the guru's on SN some more information on which to work.
I would be interested to know what avenues of thought PD and IM are going through to investigate these. It'd save a lot of speculation on here and provide the guru's on SN some more information on which to work.
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From: Newcastle-under-lyme
Woops, I don't want to misquote anyone, it was a very general chat and only my recollection of it at that, so I cannot say for sure what he bases his opinions on or what info he has.
He was only specific about Aaron Birds car, which IIRC had a failed boost pipe???
Sorry if I have misrepresented what you said Mike. Boy, these forums can be tough.
The opinions expressed in this posting (and any previous postings) are those of the poster only, and cannot be relied on in a court of law. Tongue firmly in cheek.(mainly because the poster is a sad old git, with duff hearing, a bad limp, partly blind and awful flatulence, who can't even remember to collect his kids from school when asked, so how do you expect him to remember a conversation from today?)) PS only some of the preceeding statements are true.
Steve (wish I hadn't said anything) Wardle
He was only specific about Aaron Birds car, which IIRC had a failed boost pipe???
Sorry if I have misrepresented what you said Mike. Boy, these forums can be tough.
The opinions expressed in this posting (and any previous postings) are those of the poster only, and cannot be relied on in a court of law. Tongue firmly in cheek.(mainly because the poster is a sad old git, with duff hearing, a bad limp, partly blind and awful flatulence, who can't even remember to collect his kids from school when asked, so how do you expect him to remember a conversation from today?)
) PS only some of the preceeding statements are true.Steve (wish I hadn't said anything) Wardle