TD05 turbo on Ej20 engine, what boost/revs is safe on 380cc injectors?
14 December 2002, 08:04 PM
#36
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David, please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please. 
14 December 2002, 09:38 PM
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Andy,
The 480's are yellow.
I'm sure that Andy would agree, that the power his car produces, with the 380's, is VERY misleading, and shouldn't be used for comparative purposes.
Apart from him using a rising rate reg', he has also a few other tricks up his sleeve !!!
Mark.
The 480's are yellow.
I'm sure that Andy would agree, that the power his car produces, with the 380's, is VERY misleading, and shouldn't be used for comparative purposes.
Apart from him using a rising rate reg', he has also a few other tricks up his sleeve !!!
Mark.
15 December 2002, 04:22 PM
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Mark
With John B as my witness when we checked my car with his wideband, I had an AFR of approx 11.4 (with extra injectors on) I tried it with them switched off and it ran at 12.6. This was with std injectors, 1.5-1.6 bar boost, +0.3 bar fuel pressure at max boost.
From this I calculated that my extra injectors supplied an additional 10% fuel.
Still seems a bit odd 370 bhp from 418cc at 11.4 AFR ?
I think John is running his 550's at 85% for 25 bhp less at the same AFR
With John B as my witness
when we checked my car with his wideband, I had an AFR of approx 11.4 (with extra injectors on) I tried it with them switched off and it ran at 12.6. This was with std injectors, 1.5-1.6 bar boost, +0.3 bar fuel pressure at max boost.From this I calculated that my extra injectors supplied an additional 10% fuel.
Still seems a bit odd 370 bhp from 418cc at 11.4 AFR ?
I think John is running his 550's at 85% for 25 bhp less at the same AFR
15 December 2002, 10:57 PM
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Andy,
Are you saying that the 1.7:1 risign rate reg', only gives an extra .3bar at 1.6bar boost ??
Where does the 1.7:1 bit come from then ?
The extra .3bar would give you about another 4%, but something fishy is going on.
370bhp, from circa 420cc injectors, is just not realistic.
I've seen some stock looking injectors, that turned out to be re-worked, I wonder ?
What size are the other "injectors", and what pressure do they run at ?
Mark.
Are you saying that the 1.7:1 risign rate reg', only gives an extra .3bar at 1.6bar boost ??
Where does the 1.7:1 bit come from then ?
The extra .3bar would give you about another 4%, but something fishy is going on.
370bhp, from circa 420cc injectors, is just not realistic.
I've seen some stock looking injectors, that turned out to be re-worked, I wonder ?
What size are the other "injectors", and what pressure do they run at ?
Mark.
16 December 2002, 06:44 AM
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The rising rate is an odd one, it seems flow dependant ! When it first comes on boost the fuel pressure can peak at 5.5 bar (boost 1.6) then when the rpm rises a bit and the fuel flow increases through the injectors, the pressure drops back to 4.9-5.0 bar (boost still 1.6)
Initially I thought it was the pump struggling with the flow but I can get 6 bar easily by jacking in the adjusting screw !
The two ERL 'water' injectors are supplied from the fuel rail so also run at 3.3 bar differential. They are 0.6mm diameter.
Andy
Initially I thought it was the pump struggling with the flow but I can get 6 bar easily by jacking in the adjusting screw !
The two ERL 'water'
injectors are supplied from the fuel rail so also run at 3.3 bar differential. They are 0.6mm diameter.Andy
16 December 2002, 11:59 AM
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Andy, I confirm your findings, but can't explain them. I was running 82% IDC at 280 BHP at the wheels on your AP22 at 1.3 bar and 11.1:1 AFR.
Now I am running 1.4 bar and 11.4:1 and more advance, need to check the present IDC, but I expect about 295 ATW when my car next meets your AP22 But I had to run surprisingly high IDC on "550s" (?) to stop it being lean. Either they are:
1. Not really 550s
2. I am making a shed load of power
or
3. I run a very high BSFC (but at 11.1-11.4:1 it seems sweet, and I have not been lazy with the timing and the temps are fine).
[Edited by john banks - 12/16/2002 12:12:19 PM]
Now I am running 1.4 bar and 11.4:1 and more advance, need to check the present IDC, but I expect about 295 ATW when my car next meets your AP22
But I had to run surprisingly high IDC on "550s" (?) to stop it being lean. Either they are:1. Not really 550s
2. I am making a shed load of power
or
3. I run a very high BSFC (but at 11.1-11.4:1 it seems sweet, and I have not been lazy with the timing and the temps are fine).
[Edited by john banks - 12/16/2002 12:12:19 PM]
16 December 2002, 12:28 PM
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did we ever get any results from the flow testing that was done ?
p20spd, what IDC's do you run?
p20spd, what IDC's do you run?
16 December 2002, 12:33 PM
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cant check it atm, as the car is off the road.
from memory, on full boost of approx 1.3bar they are running between 80 and 85%, i will check it tonight if i have time.
from memory, on full boost of approx 1.3bar they are running between 80 and 85%, i will check it tonight if i have time.
16 December 2002, 06:37 PM
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87% at 6700 RPM 16.5 PSI lambda voltage 0.865V (this is lean on my car) I would estimate the AFR was actually about 12.5:1.
When I was running 18 PSI at 6700 RPM with AFR of 11:1 on 550s the IDC was 82%.
The second one also has a FMIC, but was 10% more powerful and a lot happier.
So given that I was running 10% more power, at least 10% richer and on 82 rather than 87%... then new injector size estimate = 440 *1.1*1.1 *87/82= 565 cc so about right maybe. (I didn't get fudge the figures to get near 550, just estimated). Maybe completely meaningless.
When I was running 18 PSI at 6700 RPM with AFR of 11:1 on 550s the IDC was 82%.
The second one also has a FMIC, but was 10% more powerful and a lot happier.
So given that I was running 10% more power, at least 10% richer and on 82 rather than 87%... then new injector size estimate = 440 *1.1*1.1 *87/82= 565 cc so about right maybe. (I didn't get fudge the figures to get near 550, just estimated). Maybe completely meaningless.
18 December 2002, 02:08 PM
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Andy,
It seems to me as if your fuel pump *IS NOT* able to supply enough fuel. You should really flow test it properly to make sure...
Using a rising rate reg and a 3 bar differential fuel pressure on vacuum, you should have 4.12 bar differential fuel pressure at 1.6 bar boost pressure (you're pretty close at 5.5 absolute, so that's fine). Now work out the new flow rate of your injectors at that differential fuel pressure... (4.12 / 3)^0.5 = 1.17 times the normal flow rate, so 380cc units will flow about 445. If you only had 4 injectors then that'de mean you need to flow 1781 cc in one minute, but you need to take into account any extra injectors you have...
Once you know what your injectors COULD flow at 100% IDC, you need to give yourself a safety margin, I'de recommend at least 20%, so for just four injectors that'de be 2226 cc / minute. Go and find a fuel pressure gauge, and connect it up to the fuel rails, then with the engine stopped, run the pump and adjust the pressure up to 5.72 bar. Now remove the fuel return line from the reg, and attach another piece of hose, and grab an empty petrol can. Put the return hose into the petrol can and then time the pump, to fill the can, if it's a 5 litre can, filling should take no more than 134 seconds. If it does take longer, then your pump is not big enough, and you will need to fit one that can flow that much. If it takes less time then you will be fine. Obviously adjust the figures as necessary given that you may have more injectors and hence the time should be lower.
Just out of curiosity, the pump that I have is rated to flow 208 litres / hour at 8 bar, which is 3466cc / minute at 8 bar. You would get 8 bar fuel pressure at 3 bar boost on a rising rate regulator, giving 5 bar differential fuel pressure, which will make injectors flow 1.29 times as much as normal. The injectors would have to flow 866cc /min at 5 bar differential pressure to max out the pump, so given a 20% safety margin, they'de ideally be no bigger than 693cc at the raised pressure or 537cc at normal 3 bar differential. I'm running 550cc injectors in my car, so it's pretty close, ie the fuel system would be fine up to 3 bar boost pressure, but the engine internals would go south first. At 80% utilisation, this pump will be good for 500 BHP, assuming it's using all 8 bar it's rated to. If it were using a linear regulator and 700cc injectors, then we can forget about the 20% safety margin, because the absolute fuel pressure would be 6 bar at 3 bar boost, and the pump can flow more than 208 litres / hour at 6 bar... so set up that way the fuel system would be good for about 630 BHP.
The moral of this story is that a a rising rate reg CAN dig you out of a hole, if your injectors aren't big enough, but it does make bigger demands of your fuel pump and the entire fuel system (more pressure). Fitting bigger injectors will also stress out the fuel pump but not as much, and it won't be quite as agressive on the puel pipes, but less friendly on the wallet, and result in poorer emissions at idle (maybe slightly rougher idle). I'de say that for people using a linear regulator and higher boost, the stock pump isn't up to the job, and a replacement in-tank pump such as those sold by Lateral Performance will work really well. If you're running high boost AND a rising rate reg, then I'de suggest the larger pump that I'm running, which is also available from Lateral Performance.
As for flow limitations of 380cc injectors, consider that you need about 5.5cc for every BHP, and then do the maths... at 1 bar with a rising rate, you'de have 3.7 bar differential fuel pressure giving 11% more flow (or 421cc per injector, 1687 for the lot). So at 100% IDC that'de be enough for 306 BHP at 1 bar, but ideally you wouldn't want to push them that hard, say 95% absolute max, so about 291 BHP. You could of course raise the fuel pressure to 4 bar at atmospheric, which would make your pressure at 1 bar boost 4.7 differential, thus making the 380s flow 475, and that would be good for 345 BHP at 100% or 311 at 90% which is fairly comfortable. But remember that the pump must be able to deliver 2375cc / minute at 5.7 bar absolute fuel pressure in order to allow the 380s to work like that.
Assuming 1 bar boost pressure, 85% volumetric efficiency, and 1.5 cfm per BHP, you can get about 280 BHP at 1 bar from an Impreza engine at 7000 RPM. Interestingly I got 301 BHP at 7000 RPM at 1.1 bar a while back on the rollers, and theory predicts 307 BHP, which is exactly the figure I got on the first run. With this in mind, you'de be better running the injectors merely on stock fuel pressure with rising rate reg, and not stress the pump out too much, because unless you get some head work done, etc, the engine really can't consume enough air to warrant the fuel requirement...
Obviously if you want to run 1.3 bar then you need to do the maths again... using stock fuel pressure with rising rate you'de get 1735cc at 100% IDC, good for 315 BHP, but your airlfow potential is 362 BHP.. obviously more fuel pressure would be required. You'de need 2000cc / min to satify that airflow, or the equivalent of 500cc injectors (assuming 100% IDC, which is bad). That'de mean a raise in differential fuel pressure of 73%, or 5.2 bar differential at 1.3 bar boost, about 6.5 bar absolute. The pump must be happy flowing 2500cc/min at 6.5 bar. To get 6.5 bar absolute fuel pressure at 1.3 bar boost you'de need to run 4.3 bar at atmospheric, at the very least, probably 4.5 bar to be "safe". But 4.5 bar fuel pressure is really a lot of pressure at atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold, I wouldn't want to run them that hard... it is probably possible to get the best part of 350 BHP out of 380cc injectors, but definitely not with the stock pump, probably not with the uprated in-tank pump, definitely possible with the pump I have, and most certainly not wise to try it, better to get bigger injectors.
For those that are laughing at the concept of 350 BHP from 1.3 bar, consider that there are cars that have done that on the rollers, it just takes some attention to thinks like headers, intercooler, turbo etc.
Cheers,
Pat.
#include <stddisclaimer.h> // There may be errors in the above.
It seems to me as if your fuel pump *IS NOT* able to supply enough fuel. You should really flow test it properly to make sure...
Using a rising rate reg and a 3 bar differential fuel pressure on vacuum, you should have 4.12 bar differential fuel pressure at 1.6 bar boost pressure (you're pretty close at 5.5 absolute, so that's fine). Now work out the new flow rate of your injectors at that differential fuel pressure... (4.12 / 3)^0.5 = 1.17 times the normal flow rate, so 380cc units will flow about 445. If you only had 4 injectors then that'de mean you need to flow 1781 cc in one minute, but you need to take into account any extra injectors you have...
Once you know what your injectors COULD flow at 100% IDC, you need to give yourself a safety margin, I'de recommend at least 20%, so for just four injectors that'de be 2226 cc / minute. Go and find a fuel pressure gauge, and connect it up to the fuel rails, then with the engine stopped, run the pump and adjust the pressure up to 5.72 bar. Now remove the fuel return line from the reg, and attach another piece of hose, and grab an empty petrol can. Put the return hose into the petrol can and then time the pump, to fill the can, if it's a 5 litre can, filling should take no more than 134 seconds. If it does take longer, then your pump is not big enough, and you will need to fit one that can flow that much. If it takes less time then you will be fine. Obviously adjust the figures as necessary given that you may have more injectors and hence the time should be lower.
Just out of curiosity, the pump that I have is rated to flow 208 litres / hour at 8 bar, which is 3466cc / minute at 8 bar. You would get 8 bar fuel pressure at 3 bar boost on a rising rate regulator, giving 5 bar differential fuel pressure, which will make injectors flow 1.29 times as much as normal. The injectors would have to flow 866cc /min at 5 bar differential pressure to max out the pump, so given a 20% safety margin, they'de ideally be no bigger than 693cc at the raised pressure or 537cc at normal 3 bar differential. I'm running 550cc injectors in my car, so it's pretty close, ie the fuel system would be fine up to 3 bar boost pressure, but the engine internals would go south first. At 80% utilisation, this pump will be good for 500 BHP, assuming it's using all 8 bar it's rated to. If it were using a linear regulator and 700cc injectors, then we can forget about the 20% safety margin, because the absolute fuel pressure would be 6 bar at 3 bar boost, and the pump can flow more than 208 litres / hour at 6 bar... so set up that way the fuel system would be good for about 630 BHP.
The moral of this story is that a a rising rate reg CAN dig you out of a hole, if your injectors aren't big enough, but it does make bigger demands of your fuel pump and the entire fuel system (more pressure). Fitting bigger injectors will also stress out the fuel pump but not as much, and it won't be quite as agressive on the puel pipes, but less friendly on the wallet, and result in poorer emissions at idle (maybe slightly rougher idle). I'de say that for people using a linear regulator and higher boost, the stock pump isn't up to the job, and a replacement in-tank pump such as those sold by Lateral Performance will work really well. If you're running high boost AND a rising rate reg, then I'de suggest the larger pump that I'm running, which is also available from Lateral Performance.
As for flow limitations of 380cc injectors, consider that you need about 5.5cc for every BHP, and then do the maths... at 1 bar with a rising rate, you'de have 3.7 bar differential fuel pressure giving 11% more flow (or 421cc per injector, 1687 for the lot). So at 100% IDC that'de be enough for 306 BHP at 1 bar, but ideally you wouldn't want to push them that hard, say 95% absolute max, so about 291 BHP. You could of course raise the fuel pressure to 4 bar at atmospheric, which would make your pressure at 1 bar boost 4.7 differential, thus making the 380s flow 475, and that would be good for 345 BHP at 100% or 311 at 90% which is fairly comfortable. But remember that the pump must be able to deliver 2375cc / minute at 5.7 bar absolute fuel pressure in order to allow the 380s to work like that.
Assuming 1 bar boost pressure, 85% volumetric efficiency, and 1.5 cfm per BHP, you can get about 280 BHP at 1 bar from an Impreza engine at 7000 RPM. Interestingly I got 301 BHP at 7000 RPM at 1.1 bar a while back on the rollers, and theory predicts 307 BHP, which is exactly the figure I got on the first run. With this in mind, you'de be better running the injectors merely on stock fuel pressure with rising rate reg, and not stress the pump out too much, because unless you get some head work done, etc, the engine really can't consume enough air to warrant the fuel requirement...
Obviously if you want to run 1.3 bar then you need to do the maths again... using stock fuel pressure with rising rate you'de get 1735cc at 100% IDC, good for 315 BHP, but your airlfow potential is 362 BHP.. obviously more fuel pressure would be required. You'de need 2000cc / min to satify that airflow, or the equivalent of 500cc injectors (assuming 100% IDC, which is bad). That'de mean a raise in differential fuel pressure of 73%, or 5.2 bar differential at 1.3 bar boost, about 6.5 bar absolute. The pump must be happy flowing 2500cc/min at 6.5 bar. To get 6.5 bar absolute fuel pressure at 1.3 bar boost you'de need to run 4.3 bar at atmospheric, at the very least, probably 4.5 bar to be "safe". But 4.5 bar fuel pressure is really a lot of pressure at atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold, I wouldn't want to run them that hard... it is probably possible to get the best part of 350 BHP out of 380cc injectors, but definitely not with the stock pump, probably not with the uprated in-tank pump, definitely possible with the pump I have, and most certainly not wise to try it, better to get bigger injectors.
For those that are laughing at the concept of 350 BHP from 1.3 bar, consider that there are cars that have done that on the rollers, it just takes some attention to thinks like headers, intercooler, turbo etc.
Cheers,
Pat.
#include <stddisclaimer.h> // There may be errors in the above.
18 December 2002, 02:19 PM
#52
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doh not c++ pat..
What fuel pump do you use?? is it the 255lph pump??
where can we get <cheap> fuel pressure gauges from?
David
What fuel pump do you use?? is it the 255lph pump??
where can we get <cheap> fuel pressure gauges from?
David
18 December 2002, 02:30 PM
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Very interesting thoughts Pat, thanks.
I'm certainly not laughing at the concept of 350 BHP at 1.3 bar, fits very closely with results I have so far.
I'm certainly not laughing at the concept of 350 BHP at 1.3 bar, fits very closely with results I have so far.
18 December 2002, 02:34 PM
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David,
It's a Bosch Motorsport pump, which I got through Mark at Lateral Performance, it's a 208 litre/hr one, at the time I think it was the biggest they did, but now there is an even bigger one
As for fuel pressure gauges, I think the Usual Suspects will carry them in stock... Demon Tweeks, Burton Power etc etc.
Cheers,
Pat.
#ifndef bigfuelpump
#define engine fscked
#endif
It's a Bosch Motorsport pump, which I got through Mark at Lateral Performance, it's a 208 litre/hr one, at the time I think it was the biggest they did, but now there is an even bigger one
As for fuel pressure gauges, I think the Usual Suspects will carry them in stock... Demon Tweeks, Burton Power etc etc.
Cheers,
Pat.
#ifndef bigfuelpump
#define engine fscked
#endif
18 December 2002, 02:42 PM
#55
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oh... one of them noisy things 
am I ok with my in tank 255lph walboro thingy? (ask mark about plans..)
David
am I ok with my in tank 255lph walboro thingy? (ask mark about plans..)
David
18 December 2002, 04:38 PM
#56
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Cheers Pat, I find your reply a bit lacking in detail 
The pump is one of Mark's uprated ones. I tested it on the bench rather crudely by connecting a gauge 'T'd to the discharge and partially kinking the outlet pipe to build the appropriate backpresure. It ran my required fuel flow +20% at 6 bar. This was from a 12v battery at 12.3 volts, on the car it would be a bit more due to the voltage.
This test did not simulate the restrictions of the 'on car' system however when I was suffering from pressure drop off at higher rpm I jacked the regulator pressure up and it would hold 6 bar at max load/rpm. It still overshot in the midrange though! I put it down to the proportional gain on the regulator causing an offset at higher flows ??
I don't like the characteristics of this rising rate reg and will be replacing it with a linear one soon.
The pump is one of Mark's uprated ones. I tested it on the bench rather crudely by connecting a gauge 'T'd to the discharge and partially kinking the outlet pipe to build the appropriate backpresure. It ran my required fuel flow +20% at 6 bar. This was from a 12v battery at 12.3 volts, on the car it would be a bit more due to the voltage.
This test did not simulate the restrictions of the 'on car' system however when I was suffering from pressure drop off at higher rpm I jacked the regulator pressure up and it would hold 6 bar at max load/rpm. It still overshot in the midrange though! I put it down to the proportional gain on the regulator causing an offset at higher flows ??
I don't like the characteristics of this rising rate reg and will be replacing it with a linear one soon.
18 December 2002, 04:40 PM
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David,
without knowing exactly what you're doing, and without having the flow spec for that particular pump I can't really say... as Mark already know what you're planning, and has the flow graphs for the pumps he does, he will be able to advise whether the pump will do the job or if you would be better fitting the big one I have. As a point of interest, it may be worth fitting a fuel swirl pot to counter fuel surge and then you could feed the rails from a bigger pump in the bay, thus the Walbro will be making sure there's always enough fuel up front and the Bosch will allow you to run very high pressure if required... I have a similar setup but without the swirl pot (never had an issue on my car with fuel surge, seems the old cars' fuel tanks are less prone to this)
Cheers,
Pat.
without knowing exactly what you're doing, and without having the flow spec for that particular pump I can't really say... as Mark already know what you're planning, and has the flow graphs for the pumps he does, he will be able to advise whether the pump will do the job or if you would be better fitting the big one I have. As a point of interest, it may be worth fitting a fuel swirl pot to counter fuel surge and then you could feed the rails from a bigger pump in the bay, thus the Walbro will be making sure there's always enough fuel up front and the Bosch will allow you to run very high pressure if required... I have a similar setup but without the swirl pot (never had an issue on my car with fuel surge, seems the old cars' fuel tanks are less prone to this)
Cheers,
Pat.
18 December 2002, 04:52 PM
#58
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andy... I used the cossie one from mark...
Im sure you have your own ideas though...
Is there any reason why I cant have a swirl / surge pot under the bonnet or should I put it in the boot and make it a bit bigger?
David
Im sure you have your own ideas though...
Is there any reason why I cant have a swirl / surge pot under the bonnet or should I put it in the boot and make it a bit bigger?
David
18 December 2002, 04:56 PM
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David
I had a Cossie Bosch pump all piped up with a surge tank and a walbro supplying it but, guess what, when tested at 6 bar the Walbro actually outflowed it ! So it all came off again !
Yours is probably a different pump ? they do a few models.
I had a Cossie Bosch pump all piped up with a surge tank and a walbro supplying it but, guess what, when tested at 6 bar the Walbro actually outflowed it ! So it all came off again !
Yours is probably a different pump ? they do a few models.
18 December 2002, 05:05 PM
#60
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when i say the cossie one, I mean the cossie regulator..
Im just trying to work out how to meet demand for the new engine..
(May run 8 Injectors)
David
Im just trying to work out how to meet demand for the new engine..
(May run 8 Injectors)
David