LG John

I find the real one to watch for it the front snapping back after oversteer! Picture this, your powering out of a damp turn and the backend steps out. You feed in the opposite lock and enjoy your sideways moment Then - I'm assuming diffs shift more power back to the front - the front end gets power with the front wheels pointing to the opposite side of the road and the car snaps back the other way and tries to catapult you off the other side of the road 4WD, tisk - not always a bed of roses

So happened the roads I were on today were waaaaaaaaaay out in the sticks and were covered in mud from tractors. I never got out of 2nd and 3rd but I had traction problems in both those gears The car is a state with mud up both sides but man was it worth it. I also found a cheeky tunnel and sat and reved her for 5 mins

And before anyone says it I had over half a tank of fuel I don't now though

Mr evolution

My answer to the original question would be learn how to drive. In the wet around Milton Keynes you can oversteer in almost any car including my old 1.1 fiesta and my peugeot 306 1.4

hades

Upside down on the M1 - I can see that not being an ideal state of affairs. Was a little tongue in cheek anyway.

What to do with a noble if it oversteers on turn in, power, or lift off? Either
(a) fit RE010s to the front to reduce grip
(b) (if you're in the corner and it's a bit late to change tyres) apply reverse lock with very gentle throttle, and hope you're good enough.
(c) suddenly discover religion

LG John

PMSL at option (c)

Eric Chadwick

My 2p.

The standard s01 bridgestones are rubbish.

The throttle is not digital - though it may sometimes fool you

The car is designed to dig in and grip under power.

When you start to feel understeer through the wheel do not wind on more lock - it feels totally against your instincts but winding off a little bit of lock and perhaps feathering the throttle slightly is usually enough. If you go in 20mph too quick and you're in the right gear a fairly serious yank to the right (think denzel washington ) and some right boot should give you a nice tailslide but please dont practice this one on the roads near me.

If you have a non fancy diff car ie uk or 4dr sti it will need provoking into oversteer - major steering and either full boot, or a lift off if you're in a steady state near the limit. If you're already understeering more power = more understeer. I'm sure there must be some really good threads in the archives with lots of stuff from SDB and other v knowledgeable types.

Josh L

Saxo,

Applying power is not a lottery unless you use the throttle as as on/off switch, and if you drive an Impreza properly, understeer isn't really a problem. They simply don't behave like hot hatches, yet people still insist on driving them in the same way. I did it myself for the first 6 months.

It doesn't work everywhere, and it certainly wouldn't have worked here, as the guy was simply going too fast through the roundabout, and he's far from the first one to do it in MK.

A judicial application of power as you feel the understeer will usually help. If you leave it too late, or are simply going to fast then it won't.

Josh

LG John

I'm fairly together with where my diffs are going to be sending power but the do still do the unexpected every now and again. I actually find if you want to provoke oversteer your better to go 75% throttle as opposed to whole-hog out the bend The problem is you can't very well practise drifts and over/understeer without an airfield or similar......which I don't have

ProperCharlie

surely some degree of power on is the only way to get out of understeer? If you brake the thing will just continue to slide in the direction it's already going, if you take your foot off the gas the same will happen. Nearly stuffed someone else's mondeo by trying the foot off gas - pray to god approach.

Charlie

SiPie

Saxo

BOLLOX

It's just the pressure is on you to learn real quick!!

Scaramanga

I have to point out the fact that the bumpsteer mod does not exist MY01 onwards. Subaru changed the steering layout from the classic shape and you won't get any benefit from trying to do it. Suspension geometry on the other hand will make a shedload of difference.

As for the understeering thing, I always found that the quickest way to get round a sharp slowish corner was to either lift off just before the apex to get the front gripping or to trail brake a bit more than usual, a bit point and squirty but on roundabout sized corners best for me to get the old barge turned.

S/

Toerag

How fast was this roundabout? I find the car easier to control when going fast, but crap when slow, ie. 1st/2nd gear. Someone has already hit the nail on the head when they said that once the fronts lose grip giving it some welly will only send power to the back wheels making the situation worse. I know, I do it daily on a t-junction if it's wet, and there is nothing you can do other than lift off. You can't even straighten up to regain grip as the corner is so tight.
I'm pretty sure that tyres are the answer.

Barnaby

I thought the idea with understeer was to go no throttle, no brakes, then unwind the steering until it bites and then turn in again gently.

That way you are slowing all the time so the chances of hitting something are reducing?

brickboy

Sorry chaps -- all the mods in the world will not sort the big problem of understeer on damp roundabouts.

The problem is one word: diesel. As any biker will tell you, diesel fuel slops out of trucks & vans without caps on their fuel tanks. The problem's got a lot worse over the last 15 years, and anyone who rides a bike regularly develops a diesel "radar" pretty quickly once you've had a few slides / offs. Basically, every roundabout in Britain has a film of diesel fuel on it.

In summer, when it has a chance to evaporate, it's not so bad. In the wet or in winter, it's always there.

On a bike, a diesel spill might just as well be a skating rink, it'll have you on your ear in no time. In a car you probably wouldn't notice it unless you're pushing on a bit, and then you'll lose grip at the front in an instant.

I'm not trying to make any claims that bikers make better drivers or anything ... but a biker is more likely to have had a moment on diesel.

Fat Boy

Is it just me, or does this all smack of the blind leading the deaf and dumb?

TolTec

Hmmm, some interesting idea above.

I am going on a "1st Lotus" airfield day on Monday to have a play and hopefully learn something about handling a scoob. I seem to get oversteer under power and lift-off oversteer on wet roundabouts - nothing too scary so far but the wife was not happy!

LG John

Roee, I learned very quickly the first time I tried to snap back. Fortunatly I got the lock off quickly enough and the car just straightened, thus, ending my fun I took some to think about it and figured out what had happened. Unfortunatly step 3 isn't really applicable to me because I don't have the ***** do drift around a corner and also because I only ever drive public roads. I can see the principal of what your saying is spot on and if I find myself on a gravel track in amoungst trees I'll be sure and think of your sound tuition Until then I'll stick to briefly snapping the back-end out on exiting corners hopeing nobody sees me do it

I think we need to make the distinction between fast and slow understeer. In my experiences if you get fast understeer the best way to solve it is to lift-off gently and often to very lightly brake as well. Which of these you do depends on the individual factors, speed, lateral force, the corner, etc. At the point you feel the backend go light (but not come round) you've lifted-off/braked as much as you can. If this and steering adjustments doesn't solve it you've badly misjudged it and want to start thinking about option (c) Religion!

Slow understeer (roundabouts) I find can be solved easily by lifting off and taking a bit of lock off. Again if this doesn't solve it you've really misjudged it (or hit a slippery substance) and your likely to eat kerb.

The problem IMO is that there are not 'hard and fast' rules! There are so many factors involved, speed, tarmac surface, momentum, forces, tire pressures, etc that you can't say when a) happens, do this, that and the next thing in the following order. I usually react, and I'm pleased to say usually quite quickly, to what my 'car' is telling me about the individual circumstances. Sometimes I think, 'I could have done better' but that's what continous learning is all about

What you 'can' do for sure is modify to reduce understeer and increase overall grip, suspension, bumpsteer, geometry, good tires, etc. However, ask yourself if this will help? For example, I've done all this but tend to find I take corners faster because I know I have more grip, etc so I'm right back to square 1 I guess its like someone giving you 300bhp and saying only use 250bhp, it ain't easy

roee

Yea, I agree that eventually you will adjust to the new limits of the car whatever you do (tires, suspension and so on).
The solution is learning, I guess, and not solving problems temoporarily by switching the tires. Tires that let go earlier are LIKELY (not in all cases) to do it gradually and nicely, which is exactly what you want if you are not confident.
Setting up the geometry to cancel understeer might make the car more prone to swap ends when lifting off.

So first and foremost, people need to know how to use what they have. And just then, modify..

LG John

Very true, the guy that did my bumpsteer, etc said a lot of customers had complained after going backwards through a hedge

On existing my first roundabout within 2 mins of getting it done I knew straight away it was worth it. Its more like the Saxo was in that you know if you lift off you will spin and in that sense it's predictable and I can adjust my driving to suit. Prior to the mod I felt the car was a little unpredictable in that sometime you could get away with lifting off and others not. I'd really like to take it a stage futher and get 17s with lower profile tires but unfortunatly the finances bought the farm

LG John

Agreed MorayM, but for once you can't get on at me cause I haven't understeered through a roundabout recently

chiark

Driver error?

I love MK for its roundabouts, especially now we've moved our office into the centre. Some are better tarmac'd than others. Watch out for the ones where there's supagrip in the braking zone, then standard slippy stuff on the roundabout itself - you'll go straight on...

As has already been said, I'd lose the tyres. After the Re010s that came as standard on my MY00 I had Pzeros... These don't grip very well in the wet, but are progressive at least. Next, I'm running Toyo T1S Proxes, which are a vast improvement and are cheap

It might be worth your while to run up the M1 to Tyres Northampton, who did my geometry for me.

Hope you get it sorted soon, and it's not too painful!
Nick.

SiPie

<Bruce Lee Mode on >

Call it all what you want, but surely it's all done by feel .....

Coupled with constant adjustments depending on what the car's telling you etc, and certainly not allowing yourself to be constrained by some hard and fast driving rules

It worries me when I here people saying something like.. what do I do if I go into a bend and........blah, blah?

IMHO It's pretty much like Kung Fu or any martial art. If you take the time to think what to do, or you are restricted by a certain form or number of limited punches, kicks, or holds that you know, then you are probably fecked

Through practise hopefully we intuitively learn how to react and adjust in the correct manner accordingly

This is not a complete generalisation of all driving practices as so much is to be learnt through reading/instruction/highway code/advanced driving etc. where hard and fast rules will apply ie. using road signs, trees etc for reading what lies ahead but all this mumbo jumbo about how to correct a....blah blah is time wasted and would be better spent out on the (quiet )roads or track practising.

My 2p's worth

LG John

We've had a similar convo before Sipie but I want to stress that I agree 110% with what you've said. Sometimes you've got to put the novels and guides aside and get out there and build up your on the road experience.........on that note, I'm off for a drive

SiPie

Nice one Kenny

You're a lucky get being able to **** off for a drive at work... 'Hey boss, I'm off to work on site....... my ****'

The rest of us chained to our desk [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

roee

SiPie,

The technique behind the explanation remains true, because it's straightforward physics - would you say jumping is different on the moon because of different gravity? Of course not, so it doesn't matter if you get understeer on a road or on a track, in both cases the same operations will be required to recover.

Of course there is no substitute for practicing, but what does the practice worth if you don't know WHAT to practice?

SiPie

roee

If every road was perfectly smooth dry tarmac I would agree 100% with you.

However, for example, I had an incident 2 weeks ago where I hit a shaded dip at speed, that hadn't seen the sun all day. It was covered in thick (now polished from previous traffic)frost and you can imagine the fun in justtrying to correct that!

So, last Sunday evening the same bit of road had been gritted and was covered in loose grit. Was the technique the same in correcting the slide (deliberately provoked). Definetely not. So if I was to say to a learner driver "if you encounter any slippy surface, then do .... blah blah", then I wouldn't like to see the outcome.

ie. difference being that a bit of power on a

a) thinly gritted road will displace the grit resulting in more grip and therefore loosing the ball bearing effect.

b) thickly frosted ground will polish the surface further causing

Possibly not a perfect example but I hope you see what I'm trying to get at.
Not slating your post at all as I'm sure many priciples do apply across the board, but it just isn't an exact science and I think it's more down to experience and feel

Cheers
Si

roee

Yep, without pratice (and common sense), all those posts go down the drain. It's not Playstation, I know that

I agree with you then

SiPie

Cool

LG John

LOL, on that note I'm going to do the one thing I defo can't do on the roads tonight.....drag a guy out a Ferrari, stab him, drive off and pick up some hookers

Wilster at Work

OK cheers chiark! Latest is: garage phoned up to say its all fixed but it pulls to the left and understeers a bit too easily still so they're going to spend tomorrow morning sorting the beast out geometry wise. Wonder if they've been reading this thread????

Paul.

jeremy

Scaramanga,

Interesting to hear that the new Impreza really HAS re-designed its steering system. Funny how no one else on here ever noticed a change. That would probably explain why the new cars have less feel of the road. Though I do wonder how the S202 with its lack of front sub-frame steers, better I'd assume?

JL