chrisp

Well that what the trades says the cars worth try trading in your 1996 Escort cossie and when he gets his black glasses guide out you will have a shock. I agree it would be much easier to find a decent scoob of that age though .

The trade sales place I am guessing sells euro imports so we are talking a whole different ball game. An RS Focus doesnt look that appealing when you get a 16K WRX and spend 4K modifying upto 250-270bhp does it .

Ian2wdsaffcos

LOL mate, funnily enough I believe the Supra is also one of the handful of cars which do produce positive downforce!!!!

Correct on that Mike's car is producing more power, nobody says he wasn't however, I believe he made 267bhp on AVA's RR at the wheels....what do standard P1's make (assuming it was standard of course)?? So if the difference is between 50-70bhp or so in Mike's favour that really isn't much....do you know the difference in 0-100 between a standard 204bhp cossie & a stg1 cossie (approx 250-270bhp) is??? Well I'll tell ya, it's 2 seconds....which aint a great deal in road terms as when the std cossie is at 100 the stg1 is at about 105mph so that would only be like going past at a brisk walking pace.

chrisp

People can ask what they want for a car whether they get it is another matter.

I was recently offered 17K for my 2.5 year old MY00 WRX import. The car cost me 23K so I reckon 6K in 2.5 years aint bad either . I keep getting told my WRX is worth 12K well it dont seem so does it .

The reason I got such a good price is that is the engine is total standard, its a V-limited edition, full history, looked after, no dodgy chipping etc. All other mods are easily reversable, lights, wheels, exhaust etc.

Private sellers will get better money for the cars. I am sure the RS may do well residual wise but it depends on how many they make. Look at the racing puma and the prices of that now .

supraTT

LMFAO lets see u get £21k trading in your P1 mate.....please !

The guy who owned my Escort Cosworth when i bought it from him, also had the following cars:-

Y-Reg P1 Impreza
1986 3-Door Cosworth (Concours)
1992 Sapphire 4x4 Cosworth
1991 Fiesta RS Turbo
1988 Sierra XR4x4

Incidentally, he got so sick of paying stupid money for repairs on his P1 AND LOSING HEAPS OF MONEY ON ITS VALUE, that he wait for it......traded it in for a 15 year old Concours 1987 Sierra RS500 Cosworth. This is a guy who knows his cars, and loves subaru AND cosworth, and he lost over £10k on his P1.....yes thats a Y-REG P1 depreciating by £10k. Hmmmmm funny that....

I would LOVE to see ANYONE and defy anyone to actually go out and get their hands on a MINT 1996 Escort Cosworth any day of the week for £13500.
The fact that this guys 1991 FIESTA RS Turbo is worth £6k, which is more than most 1992 Imprezas LOL amazes me. I mean THATS depreciation. A 10 year old fiesta being valued properly at more than a 1992 WRX. Hmmmmmm.....

This argument could go on forever, i actually quite enjoy this sort of thing as a laugh, and dont mind at all, but the fact that i PI55ED and i mean PI55ED all over a 2 year old P1 impreza in my 10 year old Escort Cossie was an amazing f eeling. The guy had went and spent the guts of £30k on this thing, one of subaru's finest, and along comes my little Ford, aged 10, and hoses all over him twice. Now a Stage 3 Escort Cosworth is nearly identical if not less on the 0-60 time of a P1, and i would imagine they are fairly closely matched in a few more speed situations, obviously not all.

But this thing ran out of puff quicker than Jimmy Saville on a treadmill, and i wasnt even giving it large

If someone gave me £30k. asked me if i wanted a P1 with very little change, or a Focus RS with £10k change to spend on it, after seeing the P1 last weekend i know EXACTLY what i would buy.

Incidentally, someone asked to hear if any cossie owners were ordering a Focus RS to which he had seen no replies ??? well the guy i bought my Escort Cos from has his name down for one, and my mate also just sold his Escort Cosworth to a guy from Sheffield, and after New Year takes delivery of his too....thats 2 !

supraTT

PS.....I am still LMFAO that CHRISP quoted from PARKERS LOL LOL LOL

rich uk300

This argument could go on forever, i actually quite enjoy this sort of thing as a laugh, and dont mind at all, but the fact that i PI55ED and i mean PI55ED all over a 2 year old P1 impreza in my 10 year old Escort Cossie was an amazing f eeling

yep i'm sure you did

jonmorris

ChrisP, you must be very naïve if you are looking at book prices for limited edition cars.

The price is what people will pay. Only a dealer looking to rip you off will get out the book and offer you peanuts for an Escort Cosworth. When they sell them on, they sure as hell wont be advertising them at book price.

Yes, anyone can put any price they want on a car.. but if the car is in good condition and someone wants one, they'll pay the going price. If everyone is advertising at £15k - even up to £24-5k for a late registered low mileage example - you aren't going to get anyone to drop the price to £10k because it's not in 'tip top condition' and the guide says £10k.

Get into the real world!

Bog standard Scoobies get hit the hardest because you can get one from just about anywhere - but finding a good Escort is hard work. Owners are usually happy to keep them, so are rarely forced to cut the price for a quick sale. This means anyone trying to offer you a few grand less for cash, or because there's a stone chip on the bumper, goes home disappointed.

It therefore stands to reason that any special Impreza (P1, STi etc) will hold more value if it's also a limited production run.

If Ford eventually release lots of RS cars and mass produce them (i.e. there is no maximum limit), they too will start to lose value and the guide prices will be more accurate. Until then, throw the Parkers/Glass guides in the bin.

It really seems to me that you've jumped into this thread without reading all the other posts. You ask what Cossie owners are buying a FRS - well, first of all, look on the RSOC to find out about some who are. Secondly, you're talking to me - an Escort Cosworth owner (well until July when I sold it). There are others too, although some are admittedly keeping their Escorts AND buying the FRS as well.

Another point; not everyone who has a Cosworth is on the forums, or members of the RS Owners Club. I'm not a member as it's mostly full of kids who can only afford a RWD Sapphire and like to race everyone and act like a fool. Suffice to say, these "Cossie owners" aren't going to be rushing out to buy a Focus RS any time soon. They love to suggest it will fall to £5k in a couple of years, so they may just be able to afford one! It isn't going to happen. Even the Racing Puma lost a lot of money but is still out of their price range.

You should also ask how many people who have HAD a Cosworth are buying the Focus RS. Many people sold their cars when they were more than a few years old, couldn't buy another RS and went to another car maker. Now they're coming back, so do these people count?

So, your suggestion that Cossie owners think the car is s**t and are steering clear of it is untrue in many, many cases - so you may as well look for another argument. Why not mention the Top Gear TV review and point out that on every corner or bumpy road, you nearly kill yourself... For the record, if you buy the latest Top Gear magazine the Focus RS wins the contest against the R32 and Alfa 147

Jonathan

PS. This is a Subaru forum, so why would you expect to even see lots of Cosworth owners on here talking about buying another Ford? Am I the only sane person on here? :-D

[Edited by jonmorris - 12/5/2002 12:26:19 AM]

supraTT

richUK300 - Witness with me, 330BHP Escort Cossie versus "supposed" 280BHP P1

Whats ur opinion now mate ???

rich uk300

my p1 standard r/r'd at 300bhp.....it doesn't run out of puff at all,so i am surprised that you "pissed" it

supraTT

U got a Dyno sheet for that mate ?? would LOVE to see it please post it on here

300BHP ? funny cos standard 22B dont make that power....

hmmmmm

rich uk300

yep got a dyno sheet and would have no problems with posting it on here....but don't know how to as i'm thick.....have plenty of witness though from the southern jap meet held at bracknell

supraTT

Must be the only standard one to make that power then

Why is it so hard to believe that a Cossie beat a P1 ??? LOL thats just total untouched arrogance ....

Sprint Chief

If you look through autotrader etc., you can get this impression but you have to be a little careful - look a bit closer, and you'll find most of the cars at this price tend to be high mileage 5 door (wagon/estate) cars, which have lower residuals. You might find some reasonable very early (~93) Japanese imports at around 6k, but a well looked after, 4 door 95 scoob will probably set you back in the region of £7k-7.5k. This means the car is holding about 40% of its value after 7 years use, which actually represents considerably better than average depreciation.

Whilst parkers, glasses etc. isn't always best for ltd edition cars, neither is quoting what one individual got for theirs - if you are in the right place at the right time etc.

There is a 2 year old P1 for sale on autotrader near me for the price of £39k Not sure they'll get that for it though!

supraTT

The word "misprint" springs to mind

rich uk300

never said i didn't believe that you beat it....just thought you wouldn't have "pissed" it....i have no doubt that there are plenty of cars that could beat a p1

Sprint Chief

Ooops seem to have lost track of the conversation - replying from about a page back I think

If you want standard scoob output check

http://dyno.scoobynet.co.uk/jap/sti4_vs_sti5_std.htm

on this very site!!!!

rich uk300

just for supratt benefit as he's such a doubting thomas

could either katana,madmacslemon or anyone who has seen my dyno sheet help me out here

supraTT

Its nothing to do with me doubting for no reason mate....

Its just that you find it hard to believe i "pi55ed" a P1.

Well maybe so, but it happened....

Quote the guy who used to own my escort cossie and sold his P1 at the same time "The P1 is quick, but once they are going the Escort shuts it down everytime!"

Oh and how come nobody has commented on the fact that this guy who was a subaru fanatic as well as ford, (8 cossies and 4 STI Imprezas, and a P1 in 4 years) sold his Y-Reg P1 for a 15 year old RS 500 ?

We hear all about how no "ford owners seem to be going for a focus rs"

Well this P1 Owner sold his for a Sierra.....

Just my tuppence

rich uk300

hope this worked

chrisp

ROFL - obvious you guys have never dealt with the trade recently . I had quote soemthing and at least its something which everyone can go and look at . One off values mean nothing, just see how much DVDs go for on ebay .

Bring a standard £27K escort cossie with 224bhp against a 280PS standard impreza P1 and the cossie wouldnt know which way it went, thats the bottom line. Modify the escort so it can keep up and the value is reduced, pays ya money boys .

I seem to be told I am talking crap but I am the only one with any sort of evidence, show me a recognised trade website that says all escort cossie are worth more than 17K . You cant simple as that . Come on boys wheres your evidence ???????????????



Oh latest count on number of current cossie owners buying an RS Focus is .........


Zero

jonmorris

ChrisP, you must have a serious problem with your browser as you're missing any message that contradicts your view.

I'm a Cossie owner buying a Focus RS and there are many others. Please stop this pointless argument.

Forget the majority of RSOC members slagging off the car. Even the main thread (incidentally, an Escort Cosworth TRADER who has just taken delivery of his FRS and loves it) is full of people saying "How much is the Focus?" and "What colours can you get it in?".

Jeez, these are so-called Fast Ford fans who know bugger all about the new car. All the major car mags have had the car, every TV show has reviewed it - but because it's barely been featured in the Max Power rags, these people know sod all.

It's actually very embarrassing!

And I can't see where you're trying to go with the trade price issue. A rare car is worth what people will pay, not a book price. This is a guide and if anyone came to be quoting book price then they were sent on their way as I wasn't going to budge.

Now had I been desperate to sell, maybe I would - but few Cossies are sold like that. The only exception perhaps being when the Focus RS is seen out and about and the die-hard Cosworth nuts decide they want to change. Then and ONLY then may the value drop as a few more cars come on the market.

Fortunately I sold my Escort before I became desperate because I could forsee this potential problem, which hasn't happened so far anyway.

Jonathan

Katana

Rich, I still say that your car ain't standard with that kind of dyno sheet. Seriously. Madmac who spent enough money on his car only fractionally got a higher result than you.

chrisp

Okay cossie boys have told me to stop debating because I am posting stuff they dont like and getting up their noses, so this is my last post on this thread. BTW did I tell I own a Focus zetec and think its a very good car.

Okay someone else will have too keep score now :

1 owner is swapping

One final question, did you sell the cossie with the sole intention on buying the FRS ?

[Edited by chrisp - 12/5/2002 11:04:22 AM]

jonmorris

I put down my deposit in May and sold the car in July.

If I had the money I would have probably kept it but insurance, road tax and the fact that my girlfriend wouldn't be able to drive either that or the Focus (only just passed her test) made it out of the question.

As it stands, I am waiting for the Focus RS and bought her a Fiesta Ghia which I'm driving until my car arrives in a few weeks.

Out of the 400 or so pre-orders, I think a fair number have owned, or still own, a Cosworth.

This is a Subaru forum so it's not the place to start asking how many Cosworth owners are buying the FRS!!

Jonathan

rb5 286

iTrader: (2)

i thought a stage 3 on a cossie was over 400bhp, thats Ahmed Bayjoo does with his stage 3's anyway, my mates cossies, all stage 3's run, engine dyno'd: 445bhp and 495lb torq so either ur cosie has more power at stage 3 or ur 330bhp is not a stage 3 OR its a crap stage 3?

as for selling the P1 for a RS500, if u want the power to put ur eyeballs thro the back of ur head and the headrests then hell yes i'd do the same, the sierra maybe some 15yrs old but my god its still an awesome car with some great history of the touring cars behind it.

Lets face it, all the RS's have the history behind them in motorsport for decades now, thats where they derived from in the first place, IMHO the Focus, like the Fiesta, doesnt quite fit in because with all the others escorts,sierras,rs200 etc when u bought and drove the car u felt that u had a road going version of the real thing.

the focus, closest thing to motorsport blood is, obviously the WRC, but its 2WD!!! the wrc isnt, its 4WD. IMO it just aint the same.

but that my opinion.

3times

I love all this about residuals and supply and demand. With the exception of the 2nd generation RS turbo's all RS's were/are limited production runs so therefore it stands to reason that residuals should be higher.

The std Impreza is not a limited run so the residuals it commands are supprisingly good (especially considering the 'top' quality interiors).

Also all the talk about dodgy flat four engines breaking, I do not know anybody that has had this problem but thats not to say that it dosen't happen. Its a bit like all the Escort Cossies that kept losing 2nd gear because of a weak gearbox. Does it happen as much as we think or is it a case of we only hear about the ones that break and the ones that are 'brilliant', we don't actually talk about all the normal ones that go about their business with no fuss.

330BHP cossies beats a 280BHP P1, so what a 208BHP Impreza will beat a 170 BHP Focus. More power seems to make quite a bit of difference.

I still say that we should wait untill there are a few more RS Focuses on the road before any biased(because thats what most are) opinions are made. Biased applies to whatever you drive, or want to drive, at present.

Got to go now as I need to eat.

supraTT

Ok fIrst off lets iron out a few things here....

CHRISP - You seem to be blind, either that or ignorant, i have posted exemples of TWO people selling cossies for a Focus RS, and theres another on here, thats THREE .....where do u get ONE FROM ???????????????

2) Where is it said that ALL ESCORT COSSIES ARE worth over £17k on this thread as you claim someone said ???????
3) How about you show US ALL a website which shows 1992 Scoobies valued at over £17k seeing as how u seem quick enough to slag off residual values of Fords.
4) The guy is now comparing how DVD's sell on Ebay to car resale values......erm no further comment.....

rb5 286 - I take slight offence to you insinuating my car isnt a "PROPER" STAGE 3 Conversion mate. For your information, the car IS ACTUALLY RUNNING on Ahmed Bayjoo management, stage 3 Pectel Software, and a stage 3 conversions power is determined by WHOEVER is supplying the conversion.

Collins Stage 3 is quoted at 360BHP
Ahmed Stage 3 is approx 330-360 depending on turbo and spec
Turbosystems stage 3 is 340-360 again dependant on turbo etc
GGR Stage 3 is 335 BHP with their own software

Some Tuners supply a STAGE 0 kit which actually means their stage 3 kit becomes a stage 4, (0,1,2,3=4 stages) so maybe this is what you are thinking of for 400BHP ??

Now this isnt a personal dig at anyone on here before they get all het-up, but just rather me having my say in this fine dispute....

And i would have to agree with KATANA.....that P1 is NOT standard at 300bhp.....sorry mate !

rb5 286

iTrader: (2)

supraTT: i wasnt having a dig at ur cossie, if u look back i said 'I thought a stage 3.......'

but as u have just stated there r obviously diferent levels of stage 3.

my mates are running on pectel 7 or 8 with 63 trim turbo, all i no is that at 130mph nailing it will cause the rear to set the rubber smokin

mark

chrisp

okay had to reply

Inferring that my book figure of 13,500 was a joke and none could be purchased for that amount . BTW my second name is parkers .

1) Fair enough we are upto three just had to wade through thousands of lines and double postings , just a question just wanted to know how many have left the cosworth badge behind and gone for new. Seems a lot of people defending it but have no intention of buying it because they still think their cossie is better.

2)Are saying some maybe worth 13,500 or 17K or 20K or less ? In other words it depends on the car maybe. The trade have to take into account all cars not just one or two which are the best around and look better than the day they left the factory. A 10 year mint condition car has a different meaning to a 10 month old mint condition car in the trade.

3) In 1992 they werent available in the UK. They were only in Japan and were a lot cheaper than our UK price. So where did I say a 1992 was worth 17K, cuts both ways

4) Just an example of people paying more for something which they can get cheap elsewhere. Also a good tip as its near Xmas and you wnat to make some money buying selling a few old DVDs. just trying to be helpful

LG John

Yeah, yeah...but you forget that for £30k Mr P1 could have bought a nearly new Cerbera that would have p1ssed on your car so bad you'd think you were going backwards! You make your choices in all! Frankly I'd much rather have a standard P1 than your stage 3 cossie. The P1 IMO has it stitched up or matched in nearly every measureable test with the exception of acceleration after 90mph by which time your 20mph over the limit and how often do you do that?

I hate the way cossie driver make the point about a 10 odd year old car wasting a nice spanking new Impreza/EVO/etc. If acceleration meant that much to these people they'd have bounght something for about a grand and chucked a further 20 at it and turned it into a monster...there is more to life IMO.