ECUTEK remap on my WRX at Scoobysport
03 December 2002, 03:15 AM
#31
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Without getting all technical, and without being too derogatory, the PPP is basically a superchip with a warranty... it alters the signals that the ECU sees thus fooling it into running higher boost than it was programmed to at the factory. What the EcuTek does is to alter the boost targets (among other things), so the ECU actually sees the real boost being achieved...
It's also worth remembering that the standard map was developped with engineering tolerances in mind; no two engines will ever leave the production line with the same characteristics, so the standard map has to be quite conservative so that it isn't too agressive for the poorer examples off the production line. The PPP simply makes the car run with more boost (that it can't see) on the standard map; with the Tek3 the map is tailored to the individual engine [it is imperative that Tek3 ECUs are not swapped between cars without a check-up to make sure that it's safe in the new car!].
With regard to running boost higher up the rev range, the TD04L isn't a particularly large turbo, which basically means that there'll always be more pressure in the exhaust system than in the intake (it's the other way round with huge turbos!), so as the revs rise, the amount of exhaust gas flowing is sufficient to blow the wastegate open thus limiting available boost. This isn't unique to the TD04L, and it doesn't mean that the limit of the turbo has been reached, but it does suggest that a larger turbo would yield impressive returns. It is possible to get some more out of the TD04L, but one needs to keep a close eye on temperatures.
Cheers,
Pat.
It's also worth remembering that the standard map was developped with engineering tolerances in mind; no two engines will ever leave the production line with the same characteristics, so the standard map has to be quite conservative so that it isn't too agressive for the poorer examples off the production line. The PPP simply makes the car run with more boost (that it can't see) on the standard map; with the Tek3 the map is tailored to the individual engine [it is imperative that Tek3 ECUs are not swapped between cars without a check-up to make sure that it's safe in the new car!].
With regard to running boost higher up the rev range, the TD04L isn't a particularly large turbo, which basically means that there'll always be more pressure in the exhaust system than in the intake (it's the other way round with huge turbos!), so as the revs rise, the amount of exhaust gas flowing is sufficient to blow the wastegate open thus limiting available boost. This isn't unique to the TD04L, and it doesn't mean that the limit of the turbo has been reached, but it does suggest that a larger turbo would yield impressive returns. It is possible to get some more out of the TD04L, but one needs to keep a close eye on temperatures.
Cheers,
Pat.
03 December 2002, 09:05 AM
#32
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Pat,
Are we talking just WRX or are you including the new STi in that also? I know you have know for a while that the WRX PPP is a Boost clamp but Mike Wood did (IIRC) intimate that the STi PPP is more than just that. Have you had the Ecutek mapping software on an STi yet as I presume you can tell what is going on from that?
Ta,
Matt
Are we talking just WRX or are you including the new STi in that also? I know you have know for a while that the WRX PPP is a Boost clamp but Mike Wood did (IIRC) intimate that the STi PPP is more than just that. Have you had the Ecutek mapping software on an STi yet as I presume you can tell what is going on from that?
Ta,
Matt
03 December 2002, 09:54 AM
#34
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Shouldn't we keep the x vs y threads in General ? 
Of course you can't give away all the R&D Simon, seems obvious, but that only leaves the general public (those who don't do mapping ) to interpret what you mean. I'd read it as "yup, we got one to blow up sky high during tests" if I were to be naughty 
Problem is, we don't learn anything from these snippets. I know, not your responsibility to teach us how it all works, but now you probably got 100 people wondering "is this FUD or is my car going to blow up any second", without much further information.
When you say WRX and STi, I'd also conclude that "it" is not related to the higher rev limit of the STi. Is that a fair assumption ?
Theo
Of course you can't give away all the R&D Simon, seems obvious, but that only leaves the general public (those who don't do mapping
) to interpret what you mean. I'd read it as "yup, we got one to blow up sky high during tests" if I were to be naughty Problem is, we don't learn anything from these snippets. I know, not your responsibility to teach us how it all works, but now you probably got 100 people wondering "is this FUD or is my car going to blow up any second", without much further information.
When you say WRX and STi, I'd also conclude that "it" is not related to the higher rev limit of the STi. Is that a fair assumption ?
Theo
03 December 2002, 09:57 AM
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Morning Simon
I agree that extreme care should be used above 5k, if you are retaining the standard ignition and fuelling maps.
In fact we have been contacted by many customers wanting SSEcuTek maps done, but who already have a PPP fitted. We tell them all that we cannot do it with the Prodrive piggy back boost controller fitted.
Its no secret that Prodrive were at SEMA with Ecutek, so I wondered if you have started developing your Ecutek PPP maps for the 03 cars yet?
I agree that extreme care should be used above 5k, if you are retaining the standard ignition and fuelling maps.
In fact we have been contacted by many customers wanting SSEcuTek maps done, but who already have a PPP fitted. We tell them all that we cannot do it with the Prodrive piggy back boost controller fitted.
Its no secret that Prodrive were at SEMA with Ecutek, so I wondered if you have started developing your Ecutek PPP maps for the 03 cars yet?
03 December 2002, 10:05 AM
#36
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Simon
I agree with Theo - you shouldn't come in and give half of the story.
A better hint as to the weakness to watch for would be appreciated.
The WRX and STi are different beasts with different limits - for example, the WRX has an uppipe cat and is limited to relatively low power outputs by its fuel pump and injectors, and the small turbo. The STi with PPP seems to be "safe" (ie. Subaru UK issue it with a warranty) with circa 300 BHP despite a cat.
If you want a little more out of a WRX and are willing to lose the warranty, then a TEK3 is one route to take. However, if you want more power and/or a warranty, then an STi PPP is a safer choice. As always, it is caveat emptor!
Duncan
I agree with Theo - you shouldn't come in and give half of the story.
A better hint as to the weakness to watch for would be appreciated.The WRX and STi are different beasts with different limits - for example, the WRX has an uppipe cat and is limited to relatively low power outputs by its fuel pump and injectors, and the small turbo. The STi with PPP seems to be "safe" (ie. Subaru UK issue it with a warranty) with circa 300 BHP despite a cat.
If you want a little more out of a WRX and are willing to lose the warranty, then a TEK3 is one route to take. However, if you want more power and/or a warranty, then an STi PPP is a safer choice. As always, it is caveat emptor!
Duncan
03 December 2002, 05:24 PM
#37
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No comment
Fully understand what you say about EcuTek. The fact that Prodrive is willing to use their technology is really another highlight of what they achieved.
Also fully agree that it will be "your map", not just EcuTek. EcuTek is a tool, the rest is down to the mapper, always agreed with that line of thinking.
It is a great tool though, and seeing people like Bob & Pat using it as well is such a compliment to the originator
But:
This discussion also in a way highlights the different parameters that companies like Prodrive operates under. You are in a different ballgame, having more R&D backup, warranties, contracts etc... whereas people like John Banks do this mainly out of "enthousiasm" and pure fun. Fact is that we seem to get more information out of Bob, Pat, John, Mark EMS etc on this forum than we get from Prodrive.
That is not a dig (or certainly not meant as one), just an observation.
I wonder if a carefully constructed warning with some pointers - without giving away vast amounts of R&D related money - might actually gain you customers instead of losing them.
I don't have a WRX or STi, so I don't benefit from this, apart from learning a bit more about the wonderful world of Imprezas.
Maybe I'm pushing my luck, but if there is a real problem with higher boost at high RPM, can't you give a few pointers as to what to look out for ?
I've seen quite few confusing posts about boost spikes, boost creep etc on the STi7, so I would say that STi7 tuning is still a bit of a black art at this point.
I'm babbling... hmmm... what I want to say is that I think there is a middle ground for you between "It's gonna blow Jim!" and "I just got fired because I gave all our secrets away".
Please discuss
03 December 2002, 06:04 PM
#38
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Pete,
I don't agree All that tells me is that the ECU is not seeing the real boost - it doesn't tell me if Prodrive have modified the Fueling or Ignition tables at all....
Simon, we understand your predicament and I don't think anyone was trying to knock your product (well maybe Pete, after all, he has a competing product). We are just interested a) for interest sake b) becuase a lot of us want to know how something works before we buy it c) want to weigh up the different options before deciding on which path to take.
Obviously, we don't expect Prodrive to tell us how their product works so we have to do our best to figure it out for ourselves. Simon, Hope you hang around
Cheers,
Matt
I think that the way your Delta Dash boost graphs bear no relation to the boost shown on the gauge answers your own question
All that tells me is that the ECU is not seeing the real boost - it doesn't tell me if Prodrive have modified the Fueling or Ignition tables at all....Simon, we understand your predicament and I don't think anyone was trying to knock your product (well maybe Pete, after all, he has a competing product
). We are just interested a) for interest sake b) becuase a lot of us want to know how something works before we buy it c) want to weigh up the different options before deciding on which path to take.Obviously, we don't expect Prodrive to tell us how their product works so we have to do our best to figure it out for ourselves. Simon, Hope you hang around
Cheers,
Matt
03 December 2002, 07:13 PM
#39
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Pete, any differene between the remapping going on a PE (merve?) and pat's remapping at your place? Still playing with the same parameters? similar views on safe boost levels/fueling etc? Is it a personal thing or are the maps generally similar?
Simon - just wondering why you're unable to release the logging data from MIRA when surely this information is integral to potential purchasers of PPP making a decision on an engine management change. It kinda means the bhp/torque graphs are only half the story. Or is it that because a warrenty is provided customers can be shielded from the full data and implications for what is after all their car? If this is the case I understand why there is no need to disclose all the data. But personally it would help me decide where the balance between safety and power upgrade lies. I just can't quite understand why the logging data is a secret, after all this surely doesn't show the actual ECU maps? Or would it?
Piers LoFi
Simon - just wondering why you're unable to release the logging data from MIRA when surely this information is integral to potential purchasers of PPP making a decision on an engine management change. It kinda means the bhp/torque graphs are only half the story. Or is it that because a warrenty is provided customers can be shielded from the full data and implications for what is after all their car? If this is the case I understand why there is no need to disclose all the data. But personally it would help me decide where the balance between safety and power upgrade lies. I just can't quite understand why the logging data is a secret, after all this surely doesn't show the actual ECU maps? Or would it?
Piers LoFi
03 December 2002, 07:17 PM
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Personally I hold 1.3 bar to beyond peak power, but to support it I have:
Hybrid turbo
Front mounted intercooler
Intake and exhaust considerably freed up
Fuel pump
550 injectors
Customised ignition and fuel maps, setup with wideband O2 and detonation monitoring
High quality oil changed frequently
Best fuel quality available
Broquets
Boost and knock monitoring
...and it still might well be shortening the life of the engine. To me (for my car) power with moderate reliability is my aim. My margin is running at 1.3 instead of 1.5 bar
For customers' my aim is their aim as discussed with them - for some this is absolutely the best safety possible, some are prepared to take a few risks.
Prodrive's packages have to be:
OEM approved with more extensive testing than aftermarket packages from others
Warrantied
Emissions/noise legal
Suitable for various fuels
Fit and forget with no monitoring
Capable of being installed by a Subaru dealer
Not customised to the individual car
Limited to a lot of standard supporting components with only some breathing changes to support (in particular stuck with stock fuel system and intercooler)
Not so high performance that the car crashes people that don't know how to drive or totally overwhelms the standard suspension and braking
Quite a different approach. Personally I take the risk on bits failing for the joy of running a 350 BHP two year old car that I have owned from new that has only cost me about the official price of a UK car as it was then given that it is a Euro import. Others will benefit more from the Prodrive approach. Different markets.
The only objection I have ever had to the PPP is the MY01/02 WRX/STi packages being MAP modifiers and not remaps, but that is changing now they have the facility to remap.
Hybrid turbo
Front mounted intercooler
Intake and exhaust considerably freed up
Fuel pump
550 injectors
Customised ignition and fuel maps, setup with wideband O2 and detonation monitoring
High quality oil changed frequently
Best fuel quality available
Broquets
Boost and knock monitoring
...and it still might well be shortening the life of the engine. To me (for my car) power with moderate reliability is my aim. My margin is running at 1.3 instead of 1.5 bar
For customers' my aim is their aim as discussed with them - for some this is absolutely the best safety possible, some are prepared to take a few risks.
Prodrive's packages have to be:
OEM approved with more extensive testing than aftermarket packages from others
Warrantied
Emissions/noise legal
Suitable for various fuels
Fit and forget with no monitoring
Capable of being installed by a Subaru dealer
Not customised to the individual car
Limited to a lot of standard supporting components with only some breathing changes to support (in particular stuck with stock fuel system and intercooler)
Not so high performance that the car crashes people that don't know how to drive or totally overwhelms the standard suspension and braking
Quite a different approach. Personally I take the risk on bits failing for the joy of running a 350 BHP two year old car that I have owned from new that has only cost me about the official price of a UK car as it was then given that it is a Euro import. Others will benefit more from the Prodrive approach. Different markets.
The only objection I have ever had to the PPP is the MY01/02 WRX/STi packages being MAP modifiers and not remaps, but that is changing now they have the facility to remap.
03 December 2002, 07:40 PM
#41
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So can we speculate that the piggy back controller on the PPP
as well as adjusting boost does a few more bits concerning fuelling, etc ?
Just for safety reasons; I presume.
I guess if you're getting a Tek 3, then it'll be tailored to your
car and be a more specialised solution than the PPP.
I personally wouldn't go for anything but the PPP while in warranty, say with a new STI UK; but being as mine is 3.5 years old; I'd go for the Tek 3 and save some cash.
as well as adjusting boost does a few more bits concerning fuelling, etc ?
Just for safety reasons; I presume.
I guess if you're getting a Tek 3, then it'll be tailored to your
car and be a more specialised solution than the PPP.
I personally wouldn't go for anything but the PPP while in warranty, say with a new STI UK; but being as mine is 3.5 years old; I'd go for the Tek 3 and save some cash.
03 December 2002, 10:35 PM
#43
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Gotta agree with JB concerning PPP and Ecutek being essencially different projects. But I still don't understand why Simon cannot tell us why the boost tails off on the PPP over 5000rpm. Simon, if you can tell us it has nothing to do with timing or fueling can you tell us all the other things it has nothing to do with - then we'd know the reason without you telling us
Piers LoFi
Piers LoFi
03 December 2002, 11:45 PM
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just re-read simon lines post and he said it has nothing to do with fuelling,but it sticks in my head that idc should not exceed 85%(although some will happily run higher).
if a car with 440cc injectors was mapped to stay below 85% I doubt this sort of boost high up is possible.
if a car with 440cc injectors was mapped to stay below 85% I doubt this sort of boost high up is possible.
04 December 2002, 10:27 AM
#46
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Quote from Piers LoFi
Piers
Injector Duty Cycle (IDC) is the % of time during an engine cycle (2 crank revs in the case of a 4 stroke engine) that the injector solenoid is sent the current to open the injector. In practice the injector isn't open for exactly the same time due to inertia and the lag associated with closing the valve against the fuel pressure.
For a production road engine it is considered normal to try and keep the maximum IDC to 85% or less to avoid the inconsistencies that occur as you approach 100% (uneven spray caused by variations in unmatched production injectors). When tuning individual engines people have successfully used IDCs of 100%, but are taking a risk as there is nothing in hand for the ECU to add extra fuel for safety reasons (eg. boost spikes). The decision is a personal one down to the individual mapper.
The solution to high IDCs on a road car is normally larger injectors, but these can suffer from inconsistencies at low IDCs leading to idling problems. Sometimes extreme measures are used such as 5th injectors (or the extra 4 on an RS500 Cossie!) to get around the difference between the fuel requirements at idle and full power.
HTH.
Duncan
but can some one explain this injectors thing to me?
Injector Duty Cycle (IDC) is the % of time during an engine cycle (2 crank revs in the case of a 4 stroke engine) that the injector solenoid is sent the current to open the injector. In practice the injector isn't open for exactly the same time due to inertia and the lag associated with closing the valve against the fuel pressure.
For a production road engine it is considered normal to try and keep the maximum IDC to 85% or less to avoid the inconsistencies that occur as you approach 100% (uneven spray caused by variations in unmatched production injectors). When tuning individual engines people have successfully used IDCs of 100%, but are taking a risk as there is nothing in hand for the ECU to add extra fuel for safety reasons (eg. boost spikes). The decision is a personal one down to the individual mapper.
The solution to high IDCs on a road car is normally larger injectors, but these can suffer from inconsistencies at low IDCs leading to idling problems. Sometimes extreme measures are used such as 5th injectors (or the extra 4 on an RS500 Cossie!) to get around the difference between the fuel requirements at idle and full power.
HTH.
Duncan
04 December 2002, 11:48 AM
#47
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Duncan
The safe limit for the standard WRX injectors is 300-305bhp.
With regard to running more boost over 5k, my Link (mapped by Bob) was holding 1.2bar almost to the red line. I did over 10k miles including 2 track days. Those that know me will know that I can have a heavy right foot and whilst I didn't get it RR'd with the Link, it was considerably quicker than a PPP car with a full decat (circa 280bhp). The car has always run faultlessly, as have all the full decat PPP cars.
The car is now at least as quick as it was on the Link, but with all of the safety features of the standard ECU and factory hot and cold start plus full sensor integrity checking. I have run it on 97 and 95 octane, all without problems and it makes me grin every time I put my foot down.
Customer cars are slightly de-tuned from what I am running, just the same as John does with his customers, but are equally grin inducing, as Tim said at the start of this thread.
You cannot compare a remap that matches fuelling, timing and boost, along with accurate wastegate duty cycles that prevent any overboost, to any piggy back unit. Red herrings about data derived from using piggy back boost controllers have no place in this thread.
The safe limit for the standard WRX injectors is 300-305bhp.
With regard to running more boost over 5k, my Link (mapped by Bob) was holding 1.2bar almost to the red line. I did over 10k miles including 2 track days. Those that know me will know that I can have a heavy right foot and whilst I didn't get it RR'd with the Link, it was considerably quicker than a PPP car with a full decat (circa 280bhp). The car has always run faultlessly, as have all the full decat PPP cars.
The car is now at least as quick as it was on the Link, but with all of the safety features of the standard ECU and factory hot and cold start plus full sensor integrity checking. I have run it on 97 and 95 octane, all without problems and it makes me grin every time I put my foot down.
Customer cars are slightly de-tuned from what I am running, just the same as John does with his customers, but are equally grin inducing, as Tim said at the start of this thread.
You cannot compare a remap that matches fuelling, timing and boost, along with accurate wastegate duty cycles that prevent any overboost, to any piggy back unit. Red herrings about data derived from using piggy back boost controllers have no place in this thread.
04 December 2002, 01:03 PM
#48
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Simon Lines,
You wrote: "There is no doubt that for ultimate performance using the Flash2002 software to recalibrate the stock ECU is the best solution.".
So all the new Prodrive prepared group N and WRC cars are running on recalibrated standard ECUs?! Great news! Can you do me a favour and have a rumage through the skips out back for any old Pectel ecu rubbish that would otherwise be destined for a landfill site, I will pay postage and buy you a few drinks!?
Moray
You wrote: "There is no doubt that for ultimate performance using the Flash2002 software to recalibrate the stock ECU is the best solution.".
So all the new Prodrive prepared group N and WRC cars are running on recalibrated standard ECUs?! Great news! Can you do me a favour and have a rumage through the skips out back for any old Pectel ecu rubbish that would otherwise be destined for a landfill site, I will pay postage and buy you a few drinks!?
Moray
04 December 2002, 01:32 PM
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Pete
Thanks for the information - it is very much appreciated.
I am sure that your map is excellent, and as you say, very much safer than the aftermarket ECU route.
One last little question/statement - am I right to assume that you've uprated the fuel pump and regulator?
Duncan
Thanks for the information - it is very much appreciated.
I am sure that your map is excellent, and as you say, very much safer than the aftermarket ECU route.
One last little question/statement - am I right to assume that you've uprated the fuel pump and regulator?
Duncan
04 December 2002, 01:47 PM
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Hi Duncan
No, I am running on the standard pump and regulator.
In the future I am planning a bigger turbo and bigger injectors. This installation will need a bigger fuel pump, parallel fuel fuels and twin regulators.
No, I am running on the standard pump and regulator.
In the future I am planning a bigger turbo and bigger injectors. This installation will need a bigger fuel pump, parallel fuel fuels and twin regulators.
04 December 2002, 03:08 PM
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Pete,
when you say (Circa 280BHP) are you referring to your car or a PPP with full decat (I know it's only an estimate).
I thought a WRX with PPP and a full decat would be lucky to see 260-265 BHP?
See you Monday in any event, counting down the days
Cheers
Chris
when you say (Circa 280BHP) are you referring to your car or a PPP with full decat (I know it's only an estimate
).I thought a WRX with PPP and a full decat would be lucky to see 260-265 BHP?
See you Monday in any event, counting down the days
Cheers
Chris
04 December 2002, 06:49 PM
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Chris - In general, to my (limited) knowledge an ECUTEK'd WRX with Up-pipe and down-pipe will see 280bhp ish on the Power Engineering rolling road when fitted as part of their power pack. This is with the PE sports cat centre section exhaust and de-cat up-pipe, and 1.18bar boost IIRC.
My 02WRX (scoobysport up-pipe/ported headers/APS exhaust/Samco intercooler hose) is going to PE on Friday for the TEK, and I should get a dyno printout with it. Merv told me he'd expect to see "280 or so"
However, I'm not certain whether the PE rolling road figures are before the ECU goes through it's "learning" process and optimises itself to the car, which IIRC Pete said is often worth an extra 10-20bhp. I know others have had ecuteks and commented they do improve lots over the first week as the ECU adapts. I have no idea if this is the case, but if you get +20bhp from "learning" on a 280bhp car, the magic 300 looks possible. Any comments from the experts?
Don't know if that helps?
Phil
My 02WRX (scoobysport up-pipe/ported headers/APS exhaust/Samco intercooler hose) is going to PE on Friday for the TEK, and I should get a dyno printout with it. Merv told me he'd expect to see "280 or so"
However, I'm not certain whether the PE rolling road figures are before the ECU goes through it's "learning" process and optimises itself to the car, which IIRC Pete said is often worth an extra 10-20bhp. I know others have had ecuteks and commented they do improve lots over the first week as the ECU adapts. I have no idea if this is the case, but if you get +20bhp from "learning" on a 280bhp car, the magic 300 looks possible.
Any comments from the experts?Don't know if that helps?
Phil
