Morning Pete, guys,

Interesting comments about the PPP and the way we make it work, the WRX PPP is a PnP or Turn-Key solution and it certainly does that job, also the testing done was probably the most comprehensive we have ever undertaken before or since.

Now, to the points made, the reason the PPP tails off has absolutely nothing to do with ign and / or fuelling, I’m not going to give away thousands of pounds of R&D but above 5K you need to be very careful (WRX and STi) PPP, EcuTek or anything else…

Actually, make that very very careful!

Cheers

Simon


[Edited by Simon Lines - 12/3/2002 9:38:00 AM]

Hi Guys

Not convinced this is a “x v’s y” debate, I am NOT trying to devalue Pete and SS and certainly not EcuTek. As Pete said, it’s no secret that we are working together, in fact, all the US PPP stages have used EcuTek software for the development and will be used for the re-calibration too.

I would reiterate “the reason the PPP tails off has absolutely nothing to do with ign and / or fuelling” However, I can’t prove that without releasing the logging from MIRA and other things I’m not prepared to get fired for telling the world…

The only reason I chimed in on this post is because I have privileged information about the engines and I did not want people to have the opinion that the PPP was a poor solution.

There is no doubt that for ultimate performance using the Flash2002 software to recalibrate the stock ECU is the best solution. However, many people simply want to PnP with complete confidence. If in the course of time a better solution presents itself we may or may not take advantage of that.

Please also remember, EcuTek is a company (who I respect 100%) making a software package called “Flash 2002” (plus some other cool stuff) this software package enables a tuner to recalibrate the std ECU. If a tuner (be it Prodrive or any other) recalibrate an ECU it’s then a “Prodrive” re-calibration not an EcuTek one.

The eventual calibration an end-user ends up with in their vehicle will be a reflection of the operator that did the work, the time spent doing it, the test and development that backs it up and finally the durability testing that’s been done after it was fitted.

EvilBevel: -

No comment :)

Simon


[Edited by Simon Lines - 12/3/2002 11:59:20 AM]

this is only a guess,but without bigger injectors,pump.etc. could the injectors not be maxing out?,say above 85% from 5000rpm and flat out by the limiter.

[Edited by T-uk - 12/3/2002 11:22:33 PM]

Piers - the tek at PE starts from their basic TEK map that has been heavily road tested. However, they put this map on the car, put it on the rollers, test and tweak it, without them doing any road work on the car.

I would think that the learning nature of the ECU negates to some extent the road versus rollers issues. The map is set up with limits on how much the ECU can adapt things, rather than absolute settings. The fact that both the PE & SS maps improve over the first few days suggests that in both cases, the base map is improved upon by the ECU in the bounds of its new correction map. This is all IMHO, and I can't claim the knowledge of Mark etc.

What I can also say is that Merv gave me a copy of the deltadash log on my car on the final power run, and to my (limited) knowledge, everything there looks very healthy indeed. Although the peak power is about "expected" for full decat & up-pipe, I have (to quote Pete Croney) "better area under the graph" - spread of usable power - than most comparable maps I've seen: 280bhp+ from 5800 to 6800rpm, 260lbft+ from 2800-5300. Certainly goes nicely.

Edit to add: this is with conservative boost (& fuelling). Boost on RR: 1 bar by 2800, peak 1.12, with 1.1 held, dropping to 1 bar at 5500, 0.93 at 6000, 0.86 at 6800. Should be slightly higher on the road, with target 1.18 peak, 1.14 held in the mid range.

[Edited by hades - 12/7/2002 5:25:50 PM]

Thanks guys!

As it is my car has only just crested the hill of modification. A slippery slope awaits from what I've read. Currently I've got a Dawes (1.15 bar, optimax)with ae800 ecu.

Before I reset my ecu with the delta dash I wasn't seeing any knock correction, now I get -0.5 as boost builds rapidly,with -1.0 between 3000-4000 with boost >1.1bar.

Starting to wonder if ecu reset was a good or bad idea...

Si

Richard - your car must be shifting, good job!

[Edited by SiHethers - 12/9/2002 7:07:31 PM]

Mark, I need to be less paranoid now I am running such a good fuel pump and turbo ;) :p and not a crappy top mount :D

The above regime is what I had to do to take an admittedly completely on the ragged edge road map with the TD04L hybrid and uprated TMIC running 20 PSI and headers and have it not transitional det. And I don't drive very hard on the track ;) Well not around corners anyway :( Why do you think I need all this straight line performance :p ?

Just thought - you must be really good at cornering to need a 2.5 :p ;)

[Edited by john banks - 12/9/2002 8:11:53 PM]

Si, a friendly word of warning, mate :)

In just your first few posts you have landed amongst the Gods of Subaru tuning (excluding me ;) ) Power and £s have no limit in their company.

Slippery slope? You're on a bob-sleigh run (although you perhaps don't realise that yet :D ). But you will, when you find yourself writing big cheques for go-faster bits that you cannot justify to yourself, let alone the missus. Welcome, and enjoy :)

Richard.

PS I find credit cards less painfull...

Edited to add. Oi, Bankster, what's with the "crappy top mount"? I like it :D

[Edited by Hoppy - 12/9/2002 8:19:00 PM]

Right then, on Monday morning I had my MY01 WRX remapped at Scoobysport with an tek 3 remap.

What a difference it makes :D

I have a full decat including uppipe Scoobysport exhaust with ported headers so a full custom map was the way to go with my car. The initial saving of existing map and the upload of a basic map only takes a few minutes. Then a few adjustments for the spec of my car and we are off on the road for some mapping runs. The map was done by Pat who most of you who know him will know there is not much he doesn't know about a scoob!! I have also known him for quite a few years now so I feel safe in his hands.

At first the car needs to adjust to it's new map so the first few miles needed to be taken smoothly without to much boost. We then headed off to a nice stretch of road so we can see how the car is performing. Straight away the car felt smoother and faster. The standard boost my car was running was about 0.9 bar and the basic map put it to 1.0 bar. After a few runs we made a few adjustments to the map - more fuel here, less there and more boost was applied. At first we had problems getting the boost up to the planned 1.2 bar. This was down to the actuator so some adjustments were made there and then - BINGO - 1.2 bar boost. The extra 0.2 bar makes so much difference. I now have 1.2 bar boost from 2800rpm all the way to over 6000rpm in both 4th and 5th gear. In the lower gears the car is just amazing - I need to learn how to drive my car again as it has never been so quick - this evening in the damp it started to feel like all 4 wheels were spinning!!!!

So a big thanks and well done to Pete, Pat and the rest of the Scoobysport crew.

All I need to do now is put it on the rollers at Power Engineering to see how it compares to my last run there before the map was done.

Sounds excellent. Just one query from your report - does it REALLY hold 1.2 bar at 6000 RPM though on the TD04L standard turbo?

According to the delta dash and my boost gauge - yes. I understand that boost gauges are not the most accurate but on our mapping runs we were getting 1.2 held in both gears.

Tim

nice :)

Tim was it actually held all the way to 6000 RPM - it sounds very high for a TD04L to hold that sort of boost. I could get the TD04L hybrid to (just) hold that level of boost at 6000 RPM with a tight actuator. The most I could get out of the standard turbo is about 1.0-1.1 bar (nearer to 1.0 and often not quite getting that) at 6000 RPM whilst actually having a wastegate that will open and a sensible charge temperature. Over 5000 RPM 1.2 bar would fade away to about 1.1 bar at 5500 and 1.0 bar at 6000 RPM. Certainly not doubting Pat's work at all, just surprised by the claim that it holds so much boost so high up on such a small turbo.

I know some of the I-club guys say they hold big boost all the way to the red line even on the stock turbo, but personally I think they are dreaming.... unless there is something vastly different about the WRX engine ;) I don't map the WRX so I am just curious what can be got out of it...

[Edited by john banks - 11/28/2002 11:10:04 PM]

I thought the MY01 WRX had a VF30, not a TD04? :confused:

Matt :)

Tim
Glad to hear my old car is going well:)

Dave

It's going soo much better in my hands ;)

Some of the STis have a VF30 - this is a far larger turbo than the TD04. Would be interested if you looked at the boost gauge next time you are at 6000 RPM.

Notice how he mentions pat... and if anybody can, he can :D

Tim I would like to know what type of costs you incured on the tek 3 setup I have a abc chip fitted in my o2 wrx and would rather go for something a little bit safer. cheers

Glad you like it Tim :D

I have the same map as Tim (we are both on the early 530 ECUs) and it holds 1.2bar to 5800 and than tails off.

This is the same level of boost achieved by the PPP, although that tails off at around 5000.

The TD04 on the 01/02 is a different turbo to the 99/00 and has a different part number. I haven't compared them on the bench, but the new 04 feels more like a VF28. When I had a link on my car it was also holding a solid 1.2bar to 6k.

With regard to safety, I was getting two green lights on my Knocklink on the standard map on WOT and am now only ever seeing one green :D

Sorry Gussy forgot to say £650+vat fitted.

Also forget to mention John, we have managed to get 1.4bar out of this turbo. I think there would be reliability issues is this map was retained ;)

Sounds great Pete. 1.2 bar at 5800 RPM should be making excellent power possibly 300 BHP?

Cheers peter after I posted the question I rang you and spoke to pat sounds like a great bit of kit,have to wait tho until after father xmas has hammerd my visa card and get one in the new year ok

Hi All

Just a small one, PPP tails off from 5k for a reason :)

Cheers

Simon

What would that reason be simon??


ScoobyDoo69

Pete,

Does every car get a custom remap or are you intending to map 'off the shelf' for cars with mods that you have custom mapped B4? Personnally for that kinda money I'd hope to have Pat's custom services :)

Piers LoFi

SD69. Safety. Scoobs usually go bang at big RPMs.

Officially speaking John where does boost start to drop back on my car? I try to judge it but its not easy to watch the tacho, boost gauge and road that the same time :rolleyes: :D

This sounds thread sounds interesting. I thought they had the same turbos :eek:

Your boost should hold until about 4500-5000 RPM and then it is all bad news thereafter.

Simon

I agree that PPP boost tails off after 5000.

The reason for this is that the PPP makes no adjustments to the fuel and timing maps, it merely fools the ecu into accepting higher boost and letting it sort out what it can. There isn't enough safety in the standard map to run high boost above 5,000 rpm.

If you map the fuel and timing to suit the boost, its a different matter ;)

As I said earlier, my car is quieter on the Knoclink than it was on the standard map.