ian/555

I would tend to agree that this whole issue of pay comes back to housing and the lack of. At the moment, in this country there is a real shortage of affordable housing for people on low pay or where only one of the partners works due to looking after children of pre school age, who are the very people likely to be starting out on the property ladder so they do not have large equity to use to obtain a large/r property to suit their needs.

We are currently building less houses now, than they did in the 1920's, around the time of the great depression. When you see reports of record borrowing levels, it is just that record borrowing and not a record level of borrowers!
I think that the current lack of affordable housing will be the thorn in the side of the current Government, come the next election.
With many so-called professional couples unable to even purchase a flat to live in, let alone a house, who will they vote for come ballot day?

The government could and should of stopped this fire dispute, which is of their own making, from ever taking place, but by failing to instigate a properly thought out house building scheme, they have arrived at the situation they find themselves at now. With public sector workers demanding astronomical percentage increases due to there being a real shortage of affordable property for them to live in. If the Government had had the foresight to see the effect that a shortage of new houses combined with low interest rates would do to the wage demands of key public sector workers, instead of getting involved in the problems of the World and its friend, it might of realised that being able to afford your own home is the No.1 priority for most people, and so would of instigated a large house building programme.

I can see a solution to this pay claim but it would have to go hand in hand with a real house building programme. Give the fire-fighters an increased housing allowance linked to the average cost of a home in their area. Also at the same time start a house building programme which will meet the needs of the Country as a whole, put a cap on the multiples that people are given by the financial services sector so that prices can never outstrip earnings again and once the house building has taken place and it is then possible for the fire-fighters to purchase a property on their wage, withdraw or reduce the housing allowance paid.

I am not saying give everyone a free house, I am just saying that if the people who provide you with a key service can't live near their jobs, then they will either leave to find another job or move out of area. Such as in the Police's case, who in the Thames Valley recruited IIRC 150 new officers but with 149 experienced officers leaving in the same one year period. So, build affordable houses and keep the people you have spent time and money developing in the area and then you will not have to keep reinvesting in recruitment and training, not forgetting about experience which cannot be learnt overnight. This saving in recruitment and training in all public sectors would go some way to meet the cost of building the houses with the remainder being picked up by the eventual home owners who would no longer be in private rented accommodation, claiming housing benefit at a large cost to the council tax payers who would then see a reduction in their council tax.
So there you have it everyone's a winner!

ian

Pete Croney

Popeye no I haven't but I have twp friends who are firefighters and also a friend who is a lifeboat man.

One of my fire fighter friends does not want to be on strike but fears reprisals if the more militant FFs find out his feelings. So he keeps his mouth shut. No different to any other strike I guess. He loves the job and does peoples gardens in his time off, making a reasonable living from two things he enjoys.

My other FF mate is close to retirement and is looking forward to his pension going up by 40%.

Diesel

Im gathering that a firefighting career is a 3 or four day a week job? Is that right? Pro rata it may be about the 30k mark???? I also think that it is a job that they love and enjoy and keeps them fit, and this too counts for something - many people who hate their sedentary jobs are unhappy frustrated people...

I really think they should take the generous pay increase offered however, but symapthise with the cause though - many many people are in the 'cant afford to buy a house' boat; what dos the government do? Abandon MIRAS and increase stamp duty rates starting at a pathetic £60k - f'in BRILLIANT!

Let's hope it's over soon

Blow Dog

Many was the month where 18 hour days over 2 different jobs were required to bring in an 18K income...

Perhaps I should have thrown my toys out of the pram too?

Cem

TomM

As I said people - this is an endless argument.

pban

Give them financial support for those living in areas where cost of living is extremely high. Maybe fire service housing like military housing? 40% is outrageous, The RAF/Navy fire crews out there now are not earning 30k, not even 20k I spent 6 years as a RAF Fire Fighter, I was never paid £22,500 more like half that and for doing a job which was as dangerous if not more so. When aircraft carrying weapons catch fire the job becomes very dangerous. We never had a nice 2 days, 2 nights, 4 off shift pattern like the civilians. A saying comes to mind “if you can’t take a joke you shouldn’t have joined” 

Paul

TRIGGER

Not endless - very simple.

How much do the Government need to pay to get people to be firefighters ? This is not a moralistic issue - morally I should earn more than I do, but my company pay me what they reckon I am worth. If I dont like it I can leave. Sames goes for Firefighters. Loads of people would do the job for the £20k even if it was a fulltime job. But it's not. You get 4 days off to do a 2nd job. All this rubbish over what the trauma is worth is just idiotic - get into the real and commercial world.

Jerry*

Okay - Yup - its a very high risk and stressful job - but don't they get to retire at 45 or 50 and get a nice big fat pension ??

Much better perks than most jobs... and NOT THAT badly paid either.. okay, ask for a pay rise... but 40% as quickly as they are asking for it !?! Completely unrealistic and selfish !!

GaryK

agreed trigger,

if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen (or call a FF to put out the chip pan fire )

I think the trauma line is overplayed, we are talking about rare occassions of horrific incidents not what happens as a regular occurence on every shout. Anyway if a FF was traumatised then surely they would be signed off and getting paid for it anyway!

I think as most people have stated common sense decrees you cannot just go and ask for a 40% rise, no one can, it has to be increased year on year.

Gary

Dream Weaver

Tom - disagree with you fully, most FF are happy with thier job, and it is their choice - noone forces them to become fir fighters, so they should at least just put up with the job.

And as for this "risking their lives everyday", come on. They dont risk their lives EVERY da, maybe just a few a year.

mista weava

tom

firstly, i do not find the job horrific, but i did grow up with the profession, as my family firm has been going since 1829 thus i know no different if you see what i mean?

secondly, the trauma card is open to abuse IMO.

whilst i do agree with you to some extent, you must remember that the end product, as you call it, does also involve dealing with the families. this can be a very difficult process in the event of a sudden or untimely death. this can play hard on your emotions, as seeing the family home, family pictures around the house, hearing accounts of happy times spent with the deceased and generally, the inner most workings of family's life as they try to adjust to a normal routine is not easy. however, that is our job and we do it with pride, respect and efficiency. nothing is EVER too much of a problem. customer service is priority number 1, 2 and 3.

i might also add that we know personally the vast majority of our clients as we live in a rural area to which the community and village life is central.

i suppose that if there is any consilation on our part, then it would be that we do see a conclusion/closure to the scenario, and this is usually the time that the family begins to get on with the rest of their lives. plus a nice letter of thanks (about 98% of our clients) from our customers a few monthes later adds to the conclusion and indeed the satisfaction of the job.
so yes, the firemen may not have the benefits of that, and also may have bad visions of the event.

i do feel that the way that they are conducting themselves is wholly innapropriate and i think that is my main gripe.

interesting comments on here surrounding the subject, keep it up everyone

cheers tom

weava

[Edited by mista weava - 11/14/2002 3:12:44 PM]

Phil_

Let's find out where these striking firemen live and set fire to their houses tonight. Whilst we're at it, let's throw in those ******* Waterloo & City drivers who have decided to take a couple of extra days off at everyone else's expense. We'll see how quickly they get back into their bloody engines then

[Edited by Phil_ - 11/14/2002 3:24:10 PM]

[Edited by Phil_ - 11/14/2002 3:29:43 PM]

mista weava

as i asked earlier in this thread

WHY HAVE THE ARMY NOT COMENDERED THE FIRE BRIGADES PUMPS?

sorry to shout but no-one seems to have addressed this!
surely, instead of running (crawling) around in green goddesses, the military should use the current facilities employed by the fire service?
weava

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

The government wastes enough money to pay for the firemen's pay rises many times over each year - why not simply just cut back on bureaucracy, jollies for MP's, demolish the Dome and give the money to some people who usually work hard for a living.

Phil_

This would mean the army would have to cross the picket lines. Army don't like getting embroiled in politics.

Diesel

Their right is to withdraw their services, however us over taxed payers bought those engines for our protection... I dont think it is me being selfish in wishing the army could use them?

TomM

@ Dream Weaver - read my post and read yours mate, we are saying the same thing. I think you thought I said they have no choice whereas I actually said the same as you did - they do have a choice.

@ Mister Weava - Very good points made there mate, I have to hold my hand up and say that the side of it you described never even crossed my mind - very valid indeed

Interesting thread this, be even more interesting to see how it gets resolved.

uncle buck

It's the next stage by all accounts. If the Marxist hard-left union activists of the FBU call the 8 day strike scheduled soon (next week?), then "it will be a whole new ball game" (governments phrase).

Apparently, the army will be called upon to man the "red engines" which would involve removing them from the fire stations.

I for one am all for this course of action.

TomM

About the use of the Fire Brigade equipment.

I recently watch a program about this, I was a bit stoned so dont recall the entire program in depth but I dod remember the Tories asking this, and Labour turned round and said no - heres what I remember :

1,
Training - it would take months of training to learn how to use todays modern equipment

- well excuse me Mr Blair but has the build up for this been a couple of months??

2,
It would mean the Army using the fire staions as thier base which may lead to hostility from resident firefighters.

- What a load of crap, firefighters dont want people hurt, they would never stand in the way

3,
Some crap about cost of something or other, the people in the crowd were slating them.

So in conclusion :
Labour are talking out of thier ***** - nothing new there then.

pban

I thought they said that the army is not trained to use the civilian fire engines. The army was probably not trained on the Green Goddess’s until recently. I think maybe this part true. Each Fire Brigade has slightly different fire engines, so the army would need to be trained specifically for each vehicle. I still think that even if the army were only trained on 50% of the civilian fire engines equipment this were give them a slightly better capability.

Paul

mista weava

cheers tom
there is many a jaundiced view of us funeral directors - take the money and run, overpriced etc. i get asked many questions about the trade. most of them are probing into the "gory" side, of which i reveal nothing as a standard procedure. but never does anyone ask of the other aspects to the job. and when people say that i must be mad when i say that i find the job satisfying, i reply mentioning the letters and also phone calls that we receive as i mentioned above, thanking us for our service.
on the flip side as a builder aswell, we get similar proportions of $hitty letters/phone calls from our building customers, which are ill advised and uninformed, they question all aspects of the work you are doing and generally offer very weak and trivial input.
sometimes wonder why we bother with the building at all, and just concentrate on the funerals.

i still think the army are more than a match for the picket lines though. sort the bu££ers out at the same time!

also, we are talking the army here, months to train them to use the engines, err i don't think so! in times of crisis i think you may find that this lead time could be reduced dramatically. if theres one thing the army do do well, is what there blo8dy told! esp when your sargent major is so far up your ****, to get the job done!

cheers tom

weava

[Edited by mista weava - 11/14/2002 4:04:26 PM]

Pete Croney

Uncle Buck I really don't think its going to happen. Firemen drink in the same pubs as us and they realise they do not have the public support that they were expecting.

I should say I hope it doesn't happen. Time for some common sense.

Diesel

My father had road tankers (err..hence the nick-name...). Get in, flick the PTO switch on (power take off) open the valve, and hey presto, fluid comes out of the hose. In this case, make it water, and get the sapper to point it towards a fire - not brain surgery!

pban

Just wanted to remind everyone that its not just the Army, the RAF and Navy supply the specialist fire fighting skills and the BA crews.

Paul

Nimbus

They are...


"Ministers are considering allowing troops to cross picket lines to use red fire engines during the UK's first national firefighters' strike in 25 years.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott insisted that "all options are under review" and the government will "do what we have to do" to protect public safety."

From BBC website.

nathanj

for all those people out there that think the fireman sholud not get a pay rise. well i think that you should pull your heads outfrom your a**es. put it this way who would you rely on when your house is burning down, you going to get your neighbours to start throwing buckets of water over it... no i didn't think so.
this is for all you people that sit behind your desks doing sweet FA all day, when you put your life on the line for only 18k do you think that is worth it, just think for a minute take a look at your life style a nd try to put a price on it..... worth more than 18k is'nt it....
so i'm all for the pay rise, these lads and lasses work hard for it.....

mista weava

don't think any one is against a pay rise Nathan?

just a sensible one.

weava

TomM

Nathan - I agree with what your saying but nobody is disputing that these guys should get a pay rise, have you read the thread?

We all agree that these guys deserve more, no question its just thier methods we are discussing.

mista weava

have to say, i am pleased to hear that the forces may comendere the vehicles, personally i would have sanctioned it immediately, however our friends in govt don't like to act to quickly - fuel strike, foot and mouth et al
weava

Diesel

Nathan, I dont think one genuine poster here thinks that they dont deserve a pay rise (we all do )