Firemen...
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From: London
so you wont mind when your tax goes up because of it then?
If people were so worried about a bit of extra tax, then they'd have stirred up more of a fuss when the Govt were building the millenium dome. Think about it - the £800+ million spent on the dome could have covered the £9k pay rise for nealy 5,000 firemen for the next twenty years.
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The problem is simply that if you give the Firemen their demands, the next group will come along with a thier demands. The Chancellor is struggling to cover his already large spending plans. If all public sector workers got 40% then i think it would be a bit more than 800 million required.
You simply cant divorce the firmen's demands from the knock-on affect of other demands that will follow.
Deano
You simply cant divorce the firmen's demands from the knock-on affect of other demands that will follow.
Deano
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From: Nr Bath, Wilts
As I've said before and will say again: this is a political strike by a socialist union upset at a government that has (rightly) been stripping away union powers. The unions are aggrieved that they no longer have a say in Labour Party policy and that the Labour party has finally seen them for what they are.
To say that many firemen don't support the strike is indicative of how the FBU is using them to further it's own political goals. Now we see the other unions saying that they might have to come out on strike as they are worried about safety issues. If the British public can't spot a Union stitch up this obvious then there is probably no hope for us
For years the union have been very happy with the contract terms drawn up 25 years ago as it suited them very well. I bet if 5 years ago the government had said they were going to review firemen’s contract arrangements the union would’ve been up in arms again
The issue of equipment use by the Army is an absolute red herring. Talk of contract and leasing arrangements is also just scotch mist. The equipment does not belong to Unions and as such it is not theirs to withdraw. To say that the Army can’t cross picket lines is also crap – we’re not playing games here (well, most of us aren’t – just the union). To say it takes lots of training before you can use the kit is a valid point however if the Army had been given access to the equipment when the strikes were first mooted then they would be up to speed on it by now – easily. They don’t just all drive around in LandRovers in the army – there is a lot of very technical kit in use and the expertise to use it.
All of you saying that they’re worth every penny and that you would gladly sell your house to the FBU and your family into slavery just to help them with their pay claim need to wake up and join the rest of us in the real world.
Yes they do a good job. No they are not angels. They are trained to do a job that they volunteered for. It is essentially manual labour. Yes there is specialist equipment and yes it can, on occasion, be dangerous but at the end of the day, your average fireman just follows orders.
Try the army then – a lot less pay, a lot more specialist equipment with the added bonus of people trying to shoot you. On top of that is the added bonus of a non-strike rule and a public that generally couldn’t give a monkeys about you anyway.
Dry your eyes and get back to some sensible negotiating. Negotiate an agreement that is acceptable to everybody. 40% will never work. The unions know that. That’s why they asked for it. Wouldn’t be able to embarrass the Government otherwise.
Bottom line at the moment is this: the firemen will go on strike. The army will try and cover. People will die. The FBU will say it’s all the government’s fault. Losers? The dead people and the firemen.
You will lose all public sympathy the minute the first life is lost. I do hope that more of the public and the media will see this strike for the sham it is before lives start getting lost although sadly I doubt it
If you firemen could genuinely sit there and say “It’s sad that that family all burnt to death in that house but there was nothing we could do. The government wouldn’t give us a 40% pay rise so we had to let them burn.” then I pity you. You’re not digging coal out of the ground – you’re an Emergency Service. Get a bloody grip. I’m not saying you don’t perhaps deserve a pay review but what I am saying is that you clearly have no sense of duty. You don’t deserve the job if you can think like that [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Sorry folks but, in the case of this strike, Sympathy is in the dictionary between Sh*t and Syphilis…..
To say that many firemen don't support the strike is indicative of how the FBU is using them to further it's own political goals. Now we see the other unions saying that they might have to come out on strike as they are worried about safety issues. If the British public can't spot a Union stitch up this obvious then there is probably no hope for us
For years the union have been very happy with the contract terms drawn up 25 years ago as it suited them very well. I bet if 5 years ago the government had said they were going to review firemen’s contract arrangements the union would’ve been up in arms again The issue of equipment use by the Army is an absolute red herring. Talk of contract and leasing arrangements is also just scotch mist. The equipment does not belong to Unions and as such it is not theirs to withdraw. To say that the Army can’t cross picket lines is also crap – we’re not playing games here (well, most of us aren’t – just the union). To say it takes lots of training before you can use the kit is a valid point however if the Army had been given access to the equipment when the strikes were first mooted then they would be up to speed on it by now – easily. They don’t just all drive around in LandRovers in the army – there is a lot of very technical kit in use and the expertise to use it.
All of you saying that they’re worth every penny and that you would gladly sell your house to the FBU and your family into slavery just to help them with their pay claim need to wake up and join the rest of us in the real world.
Yes they do a good job. No they are not angels. They are trained to do a job that they volunteered for. It is essentially manual labour. Yes there is specialist equipment and yes it can, on occasion, be dangerous but at the end of the day, your average fireman just follows orders.
Try the army then – a lot less pay, a lot more specialist equipment with the added bonus of people trying to shoot you. On top of that is the added bonus of a non-strike rule and a public that generally couldn’t give a monkeys about you anyway.
Dry your eyes and get back to some sensible negotiating. Negotiate an agreement that is acceptable to everybody. 40% will never work. The unions know that. That’s why they asked for it. Wouldn’t be able to embarrass the Government otherwise.
Bottom line at the moment is this: the firemen will go on strike. The army will try and cover. People will die. The FBU will say it’s all the government’s fault. Losers? The dead people and the firemen.
You will lose all public sympathy the minute the first life is lost. I do hope that more of the public and the media will see this strike for the sham it is before lives start getting lost although sadly I doubt it
If you firemen could genuinely sit there and say “It’s sad that that family all burnt to death in that house but there was nothing we could do. The government wouldn’t give us a 40% pay rise so we had to let them burn.” then I pity you. You’re not digging coal out of the ground – you’re an Emergency Service. Get a bloody grip. I’m not saying you don’t perhaps deserve a pay review but what I am saying is that you clearly have no sense of duty. You don’t deserve the job if you can think like that [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Sorry folks but, in the case of this strike, Sympathy is in the dictionary between Sh*t and Syphilis…..
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Joined: Apr 1999
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If people were so worried about a bit of extra tax, then they'd have stirred up more of a fuss when the Govt were building the millenium dome. Think about it - the £800+ million spent on the dome could have covered the £9k pay rise for nealy 5,000 firemen for the next twenty years.
In case no-one has noticed, IT staff generally earn a lot of money, so when a lot of them (like 100,000) are made redundant, the govt. loses a lot of money. Brown is already in trouble and he knows it. If we give the firemen a 40% payrise, then every public sector worker will demand the same, particularly the ones who used to earn more than them.
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From: Sodding Chipbury
Like SimonH says, coupled with the fact that there is a review taking place at the moment (Bain Review) which the FBU are refusing to co-operate with.
This review will report it's findings in December and the FBU have been offered 4% as an interim payment until then.
But no, the FBU have decided to take strike action before it's results are even known.
And MarkO, oh yes giving firefighters (and all the other public servants that appear afterwards) a 40% payrise would have a DIRECT affect on our taxes. Simple fact I'm afraid.
This review will report it's findings in December and the FBU have been offered 4% as an interim payment until then.
But no, the FBU have decided to take strike action before it's results are even known.
And MarkO, oh yes giving firefighters (and all the other public servants that appear afterwards) a 40% payrise would have a DIRECT affect on our taxes. Simple fact I'm afraid.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Just to dispel a few myths here - before firemen start banging on about their job, how dangerous it is, how much they deserve all the extra cash lets take a look at the facts.
Fire fighting is actually very safe using modern gear and breathing equipment - your biggest risk is probably of the structure collapsing around you. In fact the death rate by fire fighters is very small - fact - thus its not that dangerous. Barring Sept 11th - freak occurence - your chance of dying is much higher in other professions paying much less such as ambulance service, military etc.
Fire men are relatively educationally unqualified and given extensive training on the job, so are soldiers, who i am sure will gladly trade you your shift pattern for detachments in Afghanistan, Iraq, Siera Leone. In fact you take home alot more cash than they do for a lot less work. They love their job though something the firefighters are forgetting - you do that type of job for tne enormous satisfaction gained in saving someone's life - the job has its own reward.
Want to whinge? i couldnt give a stuff look to your unions and to yourselves for not bringing the matter up sooner and thus having to demand so much. And no, you're not worth 30k a year, in fact closer to 25k is probably about right, maybe not even that.
P.S. Show me some mortality rates showing me how dangerous your job is or i might go dig some out myself, having fought ship fires and aircraft fires i refuse to belief it - the gear is amazingly good and the risk is small - i recall reading the figures and they are amazingly low, your job is not as dangerous as you claim.
Fire fighting is actually very safe using modern gear and breathing equipment - your biggest risk is probably of the structure collapsing around you. In fact the death rate by fire fighters is very small - fact - thus its not that dangerous. Barring Sept 11th - freak occurence - your chance of dying is much higher in other professions paying much less such as ambulance service, military etc.
Fire men are relatively educationally unqualified and given extensive training on the job, so are soldiers, who i am sure will gladly trade you your shift pattern for detachments in Afghanistan, Iraq, Siera Leone. In fact you take home alot more cash than they do for a lot less work. They love their job though something the firefighters are forgetting - you do that type of job for tne enormous satisfaction gained in saving someone's life - the job has its own reward.
Want to whinge? i couldnt give a stuff look to your unions and to yourselves for not bringing the matter up sooner and thus having to demand so much. And no, you're not worth 30k a year, in fact closer to 25k is probably about right, maybe not even that.
P.S. Show me some mortality rates showing me how dangerous your job is or i might go dig some out myself, having fought ship fires and aircraft fires i refuse to belief it - the gear is amazingly good and the risk is small - i recall reading the figures and they are amazingly low, your job is not as dangerous as you claim.
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From: here
If it isn't that dangerous, then how come when Firefighters run into burning buildings, everyone else is running out. Also ref only danger being building collapse: Suggest you do a web search for Backdrafts & Flashovers.
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From: Sodding Chipbury
Firemen's job is certainly more dangerous than most out there, but, the dangers of Backdrafts and all the rest of it are minimised by training.
It would be dangerous for me to try and cut up a pig, but for a trained butcher the dangers are minimised by training. Firemen are trained to minimise the dangers they face.
All that aside, the FBU's position is disgraceful, and I do not support them one bit. Fair pay to Firemen by all means, having that decided by the independant review that the FBU are refusing to co-operate with becasue they THINK it isn't independant seems to be the sensible way to me.
It would be dangerous for me to try and cut up a pig, but for a trained butcher the dangers are minimised by training. Firemen are trained to minimise the dangers they face.
All that aside, the FBU's position is disgraceful, and I do not support them one bit. Fair pay to Firemen by all means, having that decided by the independant review that the FBU are refusing to co-operate with becasue they THINK it isn't independant seems to be the sensible way to me.
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From: Notts, UK
I have a retained part time fireman that works on my team of industrial electricians, earns around 7k a year as a retained fireman.
He says his industrial work with heavy plant and high voltages is more dangerous day to day than the fire side.
The big downside is dealing with the death of children and smashed up bodies in cars etc. Not a nice task at all.
He feels a good compromise would be a wage of around 24k but with a change in working practices to allow overtime. Most industrial jobs allow for around an extra 4k to be earned easily with overtime.
He also said if the fireman get 30k he'll put his name down for a full time job and I can shove my job up my ****
Lee
He says his industrial work with heavy plant and high voltages is more dangerous day to day than the fire side.
The big downside is dealing with the death of children and smashed up bodies in cars etc. Not a nice task at all.
He feels a good compromise would be a wage of around 24k but with a change in working practices to allow overtime. Most industrial jobs allow for around an extra 4k to be earned easily with overtime.
He also said if the fireman get 30k he'll put his name down for a full time job and I can shove my job up my ****
Lee
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From: Perthshire
the pay dispute aint about the danger aspect. It is about the fact that the job has progressed from a more of a manual job to more of a technical job.
Dont look for the big headline fires as these are thankfully few however even the simplest of tasks can become dangerous. there was a guy within my brigade almost lost his arm when he was injected with hydraulic oil from a faulty cutting tool. reason for using the tool....to gain access to a metal container to fight a fire within
we now offer much more in the way of community / industrial fire safety, Fire prevention inspections and school visits.
It is true that we are well trained in fire behavior 'n' stuff but when we were at a 'simple' hopper fire at a sawmill and there was a dust explosion there were 2 guys on my shift required treatment for bad burns and I sure as **** needed new pants !
It is an unpredictable force. There are so many more RTAs and so much more chemicals being transported so danger is there but it is not the only thing we are basing our dispute on. If I showed you all the stuff we have to learn and some of the lectures we have to sit through it would surprise you how much detail we need to go in to. Heroes, these men and women do such a great job...Govt,It is time to dispense with the pleasantries and give us a fair pay. Can the 4th richest country in the world not afford to give their FF a take home £8.50ph without raising interest rates??? (yet they bail out Railtrack: no impact. they have a fund for the war: no impact...the list goes on)
Dont look for the big headline fires as these are thankfully few however even the simplest of tasks can become dangerous. there was a guy within my brigade almost lost his arm when he was injected with hydraulic oil from a faulty cutting tool. reason for using the tool....to gain access to a metal container to fight a fire within
we now offer much more in the way of community / industrial fire safety, Fire prevention inspections and school visits.
It is true that we are well trained in fire behavior 'n' stuff but when we were at a 'simple' hopper fire at a sawmill and there was a dust explosion there were 2 guys on my shift required treatment for bad burns and I sure as **** needed new pants !
It is an unpredictable force. There are so many more RTAs and so much more chemicals being transported so danger is there but it is not the only thing we are basing our dispute on. If I showed you all the stuff we have to learn and some of the lectures we have to sit through it would surprise you how much detail we need to go in to. Heroes, these men and women do such a great job...Govt,It is time to dispense with the pleasantries and give us a fair pay. Can the 4th richest country in the world not afford to give their FF a take home £8.50ph without raising interest rates??? (yet they bail out Railtrack: no impact. they have a fund for the war: no impact...the list goes on)
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From: Perthshire
there will always be fors and againsts.
each to their own
I would put your house out, will cut the roof off your car,teach your kids about fire safety,will help your gran position her smoke detector,will ensure your place of work has adequate fire fighting,I will get your cat out of that tree, I will help,it is in my nature
but I want paid fairly
I know where I stand and I know where some of you stand and I will leave it at that.
each to their own
I would put your house out, will cut the roof off your car,teach your kids about fire safety,will help your gran position her smoke detector,will ensure your place of work has adequate fire fighting,I will get your cat out of that tree, I will help,it is in my nature
but I want paid fairlyI know where I stand and I know where some of you stand and I will leave it at that.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Perthshire
OK moose 1 more then
the FBU approached the gov. re pay and the gov.mentioned a review so the FBU said right, lets get one so got the same review pannel that reviewed the MPs pay (the MPs seemed to think they were fair enough)
this never makes the news or papers. just like the 16% that was taken off the table by the gov. they are making sure the things they want the public to know / think are the only thing that makes it forward
ie. they sent the press to speak to the RFU guy who has a few hundred members who gave the line that the retained would not strike. This is not the case !!!! only 2 retained stations will not be out during the strike in Tayside. FACT !!! I can only guess this will be reflected throught the UK
please excuse lack of punctuation and dodgy spelling, this is not due to my lack of education or the likes but because I am working tomorrow and I need my sleep. Goodnight all
Paul
the FBU approached the gov. re pay and the gov.mentioned a review so the FBU said right, lets get one so got the same review pannel that reviewed the MPs pay (the MPs seemed to think they were fair enough)
this never makes the news or papers. just like the 16% that was taken off the table by the gov. they are making sure the things they want the public to know / think are the only thing that makes it forward
ie. they sent the press to speak to the RFU guy who has a few hundred members who gave the line that the retained would not strike. This is not the case !!!! only 2 retained stations will not be out during the strike in Tayside. FACT !!! I can only guess this will be reflected throught the UK
please excuse lack of punctuation and dodgy spelling, this is not due to my lack of education or the likes
but because I am working tomorrow and I need my sleep. Goodnight allPaul
