I think what changed was 11-09-2001

Now some 'clever' union bloke has had the 'bright idea' to try and take advantage of the terroist threat to try it on. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] If true - it sucks. Let's wait and see if they try to use that argument.

Just my theory you understand...

 

Ozzy, true. Depends what you do in the forces. Money is less of a motivation as you get housing perks, etc.

 

Alcazar/fatherpierre,

I stand corrected. I made the assumption that the army would be sending in their fully trained personnel using their up to date breathing apparatus, cutting gear, infrared cameras, medical equipents etc.

Never the less, a lot of a firemans time on the job is not putting out fires. One example being when they are first on the scene of accidents where medical training is more of a priority. I'd imagine that the army medical training is as good as the fire brigades.

 

It is Marty. BUT, the medical personnel from the forces aren't being used to cover the strike. The Armed Forces have a very small number of medics who are used primarily to look after the armed forces - in times of war reservists are used.

It's your common Soldier, Airman and Sailor that's being used to cover the strike.

5 weeks basic fire training (for the really unlucky ones) and 2 days training for the rest, and get this - 1/2 a day's extra medical training on top of the one hour per year or so we all receive on 1st aid!

They are even deploying the guys from their bases in the middle of the night so the press won't film the joke that is the Green Goddess with the untrained lads on-board. That, and so they don't cause traffic jams when they're thrashing along at 40mph.

[Edited by fatherpierre - 10/18/2002 10:34:46 PM]

 

Havent read all the posts as I cant be 4rsed

BUT, an interesting fact - MOST firemen have other jobs BECAUSE, on average they only work for 5% of their time!!!

95% of the time is spent playing pool and Fireman Sam on Playstation ..................... nice work if you can get it for £21,000!!!

IMHO

Pete

[Edited by pslewis - 10/18/2002 11:01:45 PM]

 

Thank you Pete... 'nuff said

 

But they can't leave the firestation when they're on their 24 hour shift - so how can they have another job?

And if there were fire all the time, they'd be out risking their ***** to save our ***** 24hrs a day!

 

UB,
please do not say that we have used 9,11 as a tool to get more money.
this has been going on for a number of years and the pay formula that was introduced 25 years ago was based on a manual worker, a sector of the workforce that has gradualy disapeared and the formula has been working against us for long before 9,11
there was one year in particular that the pay rise was given without the use of the formula, this was refused and it was asked that we would be given what the formula throws up....so the rise went from 4% to........3% !!!

Our union leader is a long serving leader and has been doing alot of work that you just dont hear about untill the poo hits the air cooler
have a look
As for a review. there has already been one !! the unoin had the same indipendant company come in and do a review (that is were the 30k came from)that did the review for the MPs wage

at the mo. i take home £460 in my hand per fortnight ! FFS I have to pay all bills, morgage and get fuel for the Scoob off that (BTW I bought the Scoob from share £ from my last job, couldnt get one off this wage.....infact I am v. seriously considering selling it before insurance comes up again )

 

I'm with you on this one, Sam. I'm paid by the same people as you, do fukc all most of the day, but get paid more than you.

Out of interest, do you get paid the normal rate for the strike days?

 

BTW my station has no pool table or **** all ! I am missing out here big time !!

the time off appears cos of rest periods between the 48 hrs work. (I am not meant to have a job on the side but I NEED on to have a decent living) Public Holidays and Annual leave.......we are not allowed to work overtime

 

On the Scottish news tonight -

4yrs in Army - £16,000
4yrs in Police - £21,600
4yrs in a train - £26,000
4yrs as a fireman - £30,000

These are average wages. We're not talking Major, Chief Superintendant, Station Master or ..... well, I've no idea what ranks are in the Fire Service, but you get the idea.

Stefan

[Edited by ozzy - 10/18/2002 11:25:46 PM]

 

wont get paid a bean...dont expect to either!

yet to be decided how it will work. will either loose 1/365th of our wage each strike day (that is every FBU member working or not) or loose that days pay (only the watch that is on that day)

 

Oz,

that is it though that is the top line, no further pay increments in more years time and no overtime, no allowances.

 

And the Army pay is for a private grunt, who after 4 yrs would be kicked out if he'd not made L/Cpl.

 

fireman san,

From reading this thread so far, I'd say a majority of us agree with that you should be on more money. I think what is getting peoples back up is the strike itself. It will cost peoples lives. These lives will be everyday people who agree that you should be on more money and not the select few who are refusing to give you the pay hike.

Personally i would hope that the governing body will give in before the strike and some fair settlement can be reached. Unfortunately the government cant be seen to give in to what is effectively blackmail as this will lead to other professions doing the same. We've already had the tube drivers trying (and most folk on here were against them getting more money).

Imagine yourself in the position where a member of your family was desperately in need of medical attention and couldn't get it because doctors were on strike. You would be helpless through no fault of your own. The doctors were the ones who weren't there to do what they're paid for (albeit underpaid).

Thats how a I (and i believe a lot of others) feel about the firemen's strike.

 

Well, maybe the Army's different, but you'd not get kicked out of the Corp for not pushing for promotion.

At least you might get a free holiday to sunnier climes anytime soon.

Stefan

 

Thought it was 4 yrs in the army then out if not promoted. It's similar in the RAF - no promotion, no service

 

marty,

agree, I (and all other FF -especialy here in Pontypandy-)hope it can be resolved too (see the other FF thread re strike dates) Lets face it, my house is as likley to go on fire as yours. I am just as likely to be involved in an RTA as anyone else and whats more, living in a remote rural area it would probably take a green godess about a fortnight to get to me !!!

 

Sorry, but now they have voted for strike action I have no further sympathy with the cause of the firemen. I’m yet another serviceman and also have friends waiting to go and fill in for them when they go on strike.
I have no right to strike nor do I particularly want one. I knew the terms when I joined up. Perhaps a few of the striking firemen should’ve done a bit more research before they joined up Tube drivers earn £30kpa. Whoopie do - become a tube train driver then.

These people should be getting to arbitration and dealing with this properly not playing to the whims of a union trying to make a political name for itself and to embarrass the Government. What’s the gripe? Can’t afford housing etc seems to be the main one I’ve heard. Fine, then campaign for extra weighting, campaign for housing relief. What about campaigning for the government to stop selling off surplus MoD housing to property developers and making it available to rent, at MoD type rates, to all the firemen, teachers, nurses that can’t afford to buy places? To turn round and announce you want a 40% pay rise, no discussion, is greed, pure and simple.
Upset that top whack is only £30k? Fine, then lets bring it in line with the non commissioned pay structure of the army then. Let’s start you all off on about £13kpa with top whack at about £40kpa after 30 or so years service? Or do you all want £30k now with a top whack of £XXXkpa???

I am not decrying the work that the fire service do, far from it. However, an element of perspective is required. Yes they do go into burning buildings and rescue people. Yes they do cut people from car crashes. Yes they do save lives. It can be dangerous work but I do believe this is what is known as “being a fireman”.

The soldiers that will be manning the Green Goddesses have had little or no training in fire fighting. The majority of them will be earning far, far less than your average firemen. They will mumble and moan but they will get on with it, because it’s their job. Nobody forced them to join up.

Sadly it is fairly likely that people will die unnecessarily as a result of this strike. I hope none of the firemen reading this will be crass enough to think or say that any deaths will be fault of the government for not meeting their demands……..

 

The firemen had my full support until they decided to strike.
I wonder who will be the first person to die as a result of this industrial action, makes me shudder to think about it. I just hope it's not me or my family slowly dying in a car crash while some poor squaddie tries his best to get me out.
I think the firemen have misjudged the feeling of the general public and the strike will eventually fail miserably.

 

While we're on pay matters:
Teacher, after 4 years work, and 6 years training, including doing "A" levels: £22000 :
Alcazar

 

Just out of curiosity where do you get the idea that food and accomodation in the Army is free and a perk of the job??? For your information soldiers pay Tax they also get food and accomodation deducted from their salary at source so what they get at the end of the month is theirs with no further deductions.

The only time they don't pay for food and accomadation is on active postings, ie NI, Falklands, Belize and any combat designated area, Kosova, Bosnia etc.

what you also seem to not mention is Soldiers have a nasty habit of getting Charged and fined if they break stuff which I bet Fireman and other civil servants don't.

So don't go thinking Soldiers have it cooshy.

Also out of the 3 services they get the worst accomodation..

Cheers

Steve
Ex 3rd Battalion The Queens Regiment.


[Edited by Wurzel - 10/19/2002 3:43:32 PM]

 

Still cheap, though, wurzel!

But the food is generally awful and the accomodation for single people is about on par with a dog kennel (worse for the Army).

 

Sam,

Just a quick question, out of your 460 a fortnight how much has already been taken off for your pension?

I have two friends who are firemen and I have to say from what I am getting from them they have voted for strike action out of fear factor.

I think the fire brigade need to get into the real world and realise exactly what the situation is in the rest of the uk at the moment. You only have to look at some of the posts on this BBs lately to see that a lot of people have already lost their jobs and a few have the possibility of loosing theirs in the near future ( me being one of those in the last category).
I agree that firemen are a skilled force but that said they did not have to have any formal qualifications to apply for that job and as was posted earlier there is a severe case of nepotism within the brigade so I dont think they can compare themselves to other professions.

I believe the brigade deserve a pay rise but only because it is not possible to reduce the pay of the police, and I think that is why this whole pay demand kicked off, a " they get more money than us" scenario.

IMHO the firemen should look at what they actually do when they are on shift, not what could possibly happen, take into account the security of their chosen career, and remember that they were quite happy to work for this wage when joined the brigade and then ask themselves if they are worth the money.

Ps One of my friends was on a night out last night and he said he was asked by a group of girls what he did for a living, and he told me it was the first time in his life he was ashamed to say he was a firefighter.

Says it all

Dougie

 

Well just for information nobody has mentioned Paramedics much, of which I am one, and personally know plenty of fire fighters. No mention of the top quality gear that we pay for that gets used once every 2 years (because we might need it) Our local fire station is like an alladins cave of gear like de mountable tea wagons and 8 wheel drive bog buggies!!! I work for the Ambulance service and have been by passed in all the NHS pay rises in the last few years and we have no incremental pay increases (you retire on the same pay as you get when you have been in a year- 80% for your first year) and apart from the last 2 years we have had below inflation pay rises for the last 8. In our town we do on average 450 jobs a month where the fire fighters do about 30 and they have a new 5 million pound fire station with Slumberland beds for nightshift!! They also already have a pay formula in place and a new one in the pipeline due in mid December so why do they anounce disputes on the anniversary of New York? No mention of the Paramedics who died in New York because they are employed by the fire dept over there - Rant over I apologise,
Gary

 

A quick glance at the FBU website makes for interesting reading....

The home page states:

"To this end the Fire Brigades Union is part of the
working-class movement and, linking with the
international trade union movement, has as its ultimate
aim the bringing about of the Socialist system of society"

Which is nice. Very 70s...

They also link to the sites of Morning Star and CND.

http://www.fbu.org.uk

 

Gary,
I agree that paramedics are $hat on when it comes to pay and conditions within the NHS. There is a Ambulance shares a station (temp arrangement) within my brigade and i happened to be detached there and had a chat with one of the guys there. I would have loved to be a paramedic but after speaking to him he put me right off.
Yes it is true that there is alot of £ woth @ each station which strikes up the argument that if a station officer is in charge of a job with 2 pumps (300k each) 1 aerial appliance (500k)he is responsible for them the lives of all occupants within the building,his crew and the building itself should he not be paid more than the PC directing the traffic at the inccident ???
I do not grudge anyone their wage but would just like a reasonable wage for the job I do.
I am fortunate that I have a job I love. When I had a job I didnt like so much I was paid £9k more. I love the job but question the money.
Dayshifts we do not get a min. to ourselves other than a lunch hour which is often interupted (we do get our time back when possible on the nightshifts) Slumberland beds !!! would like to be in my bed long enough to find out who it is made by !!
It is true that we joke about having a bed for nightshifts but it is always going to be the case that some stations are bussier than others so some do get to use them.
please tell me more about the new pay formula for Dec. cos we know fugg all about that ??

 

would just like to point out that last year on the isle of wight, the fire brigade received 5.9 million of public money and the roads which EVERYONE must rely on and 90% of which are in shocking condition received 5.2million. then the buggers have got the cheek to phone up my business asking for handouts! most of the time the firebrigade are called to rta's, nearly all of which happen on a handful of the most dreadful roads we own. priorities are way off.
weava

 

A couple of points, In 1989 we had a dispute where we were put on the same hourly rate as a FF with 5 years service and now that same FF is about 10% ahead of us again so do we need a pay claim for 50%? The station officer you mention is usually responsible for 1 station, our div officer has 8 stations and 90 staff and is paid about 5K less than his FB colleage, and the RTA's that folk mention - fire brigade do not save lives at rta's!! Average RTA senario - 2 car rta, 6 people hurt, 2 fire appliances (sometimes more), 1 road rescue unit, 6 on each appliance,2 on RR unit = 14 fire fighters, 2 or 3 police cars, 2 in each = 6 coppers and the whole point of everyone being there? the injured people who are looked after by? ambulance guys, 1 vehicle, 2 if you are lucky - 2 bodies!! 4 on a good day.
I too agree that the FF's deserve more money (as do the the ambulance service badly) but 40%? Where is the climb down going to come from? What are the FBU going to accept as a compromise to resolve the dispute or are they going to hold out for the whole 40%

 

the employers offered a 16% and a new pay formula a good while back and the union wanted to let the members know before accepting. The Goverment however decided this was not on and by the time the union had come back to the employers the offer had been withdrawn. At that time that offer would have been accepted and all this would not be needed but the goverment decided that the FBU cannot talk with the employers. So basically when the goverment got involved it all turned to $hit. theres a surprise