Diablo

Dan, thats a whole different debate.

Agreed its not worth spending so much money on. Just ban it and be done.

I'm not against pest control, if that is an issue, just against a day in the country ending with an animal being ripped to pieces by foxhounds all in the name of "sport" for the amusement of those taking part [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

If there are too many foxes, shoot them. Its quicker and its relatively pain free by comparison. There are humane traps that do not injure the animals as well, but they are

a) More expensive
b) Clearly not as much fun........

D

MarkO

About 10x as many foxes are killed on the road as are killed by hunts.

Diablo

As an aside, most all animal extinction post dinosaurs has been as a direct result of hunting in one way or other, and the balance due to some human intervention.

D



[Edited by diablo - 9/17/2002 12:05:02 PM]

astraboy

Right, I'm gonna say this even though I'm gonna get cained for it.
I'm for fox hunting. The reason why is because people want to do it. If theres one thing I cant stand is this "I dont like it so you cant do it" attitude. Its the same attitude which means I cant go to a free rave in a field anymore and I think it stinks.
Besides, any semi healthy fox can easily outrun a pack of dogs. its what they do. Its the same thing that happens in the wild and is called natural selection.
Besides, I really couldnt give a **** about foxes, what really gets my goat is the way people think they have a right to stop people doing what they enjoy. Its got nothing to do with cruelty, all these morons are protesting about is the fact that people want to dress up like ***** and go charging accross the countryside. Well I've dressed up in a disposable boilersuit, dayglo jacket and a dust mask to have a good night out so there is really little difference between us.
Having said that, when free raves were banned at least I could party on in proper venues, if hunting gets banned then that'll be it. It would be like some bloke coming up to me and saying "You cant go raving again. Ever. Why? Cos I said so." I dont know about you but I would do my utmost to make sure he couldnt get away with that sort of ****.
I guess it really boils down to what gives people the right to say what people can and cant do simply cos they dont like it? Simply cos they are saying "I dont like it so you cant do it." Bollox to all the cruelty, economic and social issues. All of it can be reduced to the above statement. Its a bigoted and selfish attitude and I for one think it stinks.
astraboy.

Nimbus

...so we need more cars on the roads to reduce fox numbers...

jasey

Here Here Astraboy - good point well put - are you feeling OK ?

RB5320

Thanks for the reasoned responses to my post. I cannot argue with any of your comments. I also cannot justify foxhunting. That is why I didnt even try to. It makes me laugh when people try to use the vermin control argument. It is a complete non-starter as so few foxes are killed in this way, compared to shooting, trapping etc. A couple of years ago, there was a particular hunt (unfortunately I cant remember which one), where there were more people killed by falling off their horse than foxes.
Someone raised the subject of shooting fowl - around where I live thousands of pheasants are raised solely so that they can be shot. This is probably even worse than foxhunting. However, this is where the employment and conservation arguments come in - woodlands are maintained (financed by the money raised from the shoots) so that the people shooting can do so in pleasant surroundings. The knock on effect is that you and I can also enjoy the woodlands. If there was no shooting, who would maintain them? The private estates certainly wouldnt, unless they charged a toll to walkers.
It has taken me ages to write this so its a bit out of sequence I guess.
Astraboy - natural selection??? I certainly take your point but people sitting on horses wearing poncy jodhpurs and blazers is not particularly natural. Nice to know I am not taking on the entire board singlhanded though!

astraboy

<are you feeling OK ?>
Hey! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

TAZMAN

you will never get agreement on this..I grew up in the country where fox hunting was just accepted as part of life...I am not going to defend or condemn it..I think if someone wants to hunt a fox then they should be allowed to but I understand why people do not agree with it... I think the most important issue is that the time and PR the goverment is applying to the issue is out of all proportion to other issues....

I always find it a strange that the people who so assidously defend the rights of the fox are not jumping up and down about the millions of people that starve each year.... do those that protest so strongly about the fox ever protest about starvation, homlesness and crime. Hunting is part of what we are..before the local tesco's arrived you used to have to go and get the stuff yourself...no we have evolved (?) and are civilised (?0 we just sit in our living rooms and watch people die... oh so much more civilised..

Soap box mode off

btw fox cubs are cute!!!

Jen.

But the point is - they *can* still hunt! DRAG HUNTING! They can still dress up, groom the horses, get drunk and gallop around having fun - they only thing they won't be able to do is kill animals in a cruel and unusal way....

Astraboy - can't believe you mentioned your rave outfits without mentioning glowsticks

astraboy

yeah bravo, nice one, are you a tabloid journalist or summat?
What I meant that people should be free to do what they want as long as its not hurting anybody. okay the odd fox might buy it but at the end of the day its only a bloody fox, its not like theres a shortage of the little ******* is there? Beating the crap out of somebody just because you dont like what they do is bordering on the pathetic.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Issac Asimov.
astraboy.

astraboy

<Astraboy - can't believe you mentioned your rave outfits without mentioning glowsticks >
Dont use glosticks, they make me look silly.
astraboy.

Diablo

Astraboy,

Don't be a prat. Life is not black and white.

If people want to dress up like tossers and ride about that fine with me too. Its not fine that they cause pain and suffering in the name of sport.

But you don't rip an animal to pieces at a rave do you?

astraboy

No I dont, unless you count my calf muscles and my digestive system....
However, pain and suffering is a part of natural life. If the fox doesent get killed by hunters do you think he's going to think "Whew! that was a close shave, now that I know what its like to be on the receiving end I'm gonna stop killing small furry things for my food" Of course he aint, hes gonna carry on doing what he does. Not that theres anything wrong with that, but at the end of the day a semi healthy fox WILL get away from a pack of dogs.
I remember laughing my **** off at the hunt saboteur who was hospitalised by a fox after seeing him wondering by and coming up with the novel idea of picking him up and putting him in his car. Nearly lost his hand IIRC. Its worth remembering that Foxy Woxy may look cute and furry but is a nasty little ******* when you get up close.
astraboy.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Astraboy: there isn't a shortage of cats, either, but look at what happened on here when someone suggested shooting one.
No-one suggests hunting feral cats down with dogs either. Why not? Because the cat is regarded as domestic, and people love 'em.
Foxes? personally, I just like animals--I'm terrified of snakes, but actually rescued one 3 years ago in France to avoid it having to suffer. I don't like the idea of animals having to suffer UNNECESSARILY. Yes, some have to die to feed us, and those that are vermin, and too many of them. But they DON'T have to suffer.
I, too would like to think that we should be able to do as we please, but , any way you put it, making animals suffer is NOT RIGHT.
Rant modeff.

Diablo

Its people with your attitude that make me sick.

Just because "its only a bloody fox" doean't mean it has to endure the terror and suffering inflicted upon it.

I'm sure the fox here http://www.animalaid.org.uk/news/2001/0112hunt.htmthought "hey, its ok, I'm just a bloody fox"........

D

Oh, and there's no shortage of Africans either, so clearly its not an issue when millions of them die every year.....



[Edited by diablo - 9/17/2002 1:03:30 PM]

astraboy

ah, sod this, I'm off back to the hutch.
enjoy yourselves gentlemen.
astraboy.

Diablo

Good call.

Perhaps now we can get back to reasoned, intelligent debate....

astraboy

<Perhaps now we can get back to reasoned, intelligent debate....>
you're still here aint you?
*runs away*
astraboy.

Diablo

****

RB5320

well I guess that little interlude just advanced the cause of the anti-hunting lobby!

skipjack

my my what a lot of wounded class warriors there are here.

first up: i live in the country. i ride. i hunt. i'm not a "rich toff". i have a job. i work hard for me and mine.

i hunt because i enjoy it. the thrill of the chase - and very occasionally the kill - is exciting and there is a healthy edge to it because you can get hurt doing it.

it gets me out in the fresh air, is good exercise and the people are largely good company. they aren't toffs - we have teachers, farmers, farm workers, mechanics, public sector workers, doctors and the like.

we don't often catch a fox because they're faster than us and more cunning than the hounds: only 20% of foxes are caught by the hounds, the remaining 80% are caught by a variety of means, some hit and miss and some that are indescriminate in the animals they kill.

i enjoy it because it is part of ours and many other country's cultural heritages. it has a long history and was invented by the ancient greeks. they rode naked actually, something i wouldn't fancy myself.

when we hunt, we either get the fox (rarely) or we don't and it survives intact. so what. it's no crueller than any comparable method of pest control and is certainly woefully inefficient in comparison.

there's a lot of complete rubbish talked about hunting: it comes up most parliaments and there's always some bunch of ill-informed, misguided class-conscious (why? are you insecure about yourselves?) liberals, lefties and townies who want to infringe my civil liberties. michael foster, bless him, the idiot who brought the private members bill this time, wants to ban hunting but he's a keen fisherman. by the same token, is that not cruel? hauling a water-dwelling creature into an alien environment by means of a hook. for fun. christ, what hypocrisy. people want to fish, let them. they harm no-one. people want to hunt, let them, it harms no-one.

flame me if you like, i couldn't give a rat's a**e what you think. which is my right in a democratic society. go on a sab, i don't care, it's your right.

but don't be a fascist. it's ugly and divisive.

MarkO

What I love about all these arguments from the pro-hunt lobby is when they say "it doesn't hurt anyone". Okay, so a fox isn't a human, but the fact is that cruelty is being inflicted - and unnecessarily (which is the relevant word here).

You want to go and ride your horse across country? Fine. Go ahead. You want to control the vermin (foxes) using trained marksmen? Fine, go ahead. But why combine the two?

It irritates me because a lot of the countryside issues for which the march is going ahead on the 22nd are valid ones, but by continuing this ludicrous campaign to continue hunting with hounds they're going to end up losing all that they're fighting for. If they could just accept that the majority of the population sees hunting with hounds as unacceptable, they could stop doing it, and then would almost certainly find they have 100% support for all the other issues from the 'townies'.

As has been said, the situation in Scotland has already proven that banning hunting won't adversely affect the economy, won't result in packs of dogs being destroyed, won't result in the countryside going to ruin and won't rule out other past-times by those who manage the land.

If the countryside alliance could accept the facts, and stop digging their heels in over what is, after all, a rather petty and insignificant area of countryside tradition, they'd gain far more sympathy from the rest of us regarding the issues that really matter to them and really will make a difference to their livelihoods and incomes.

Diablo

Skipjack, I don't see anyone being fascist here.

At the end of the day, you are in the minority and its only a matter of time before England follows scotlands lead in the fight against animal cruelty.

Given most of your reasons for hunting, presumably you'd be as happy to chase a scent rather than a live fox?

Or is it the fact that you are, in effect, chasing down a live animal to (ideally for the hunt) the death that makes it all worth while?

Interested to hear the answer to that one.

D

ps - well said Mark0. Must get together for a beer when you move up to Scotland.

[Edited by diablo - 9/17/2002 2:00:42 PM]

jasey

Marko - You're right about the scottish thing - the problem is that it's taken up so much time of the scottish parliament saving the lives of, lets say 300 foxes per annum, whilst at the same time crime keeps going up, hospital waiting lists getting longer etc. etc. etc. I'd rather my hard earnt taxes were wasted saving the life of my grannie rather than a fox that I have never met - And Diablo - it's a bit like your dog versus unkown child arguments

TAZMAN

there seems to be more hate about "dressing up" then actually killing foxes...so do you hate the 'cruelty' of an animal being killed by another animal..or is it the class/jealousy hate rearing its head...
do you cy each time a fly hits the bonnet of your car...at what point on the scale of life does killing become acceptable...

The world is full of convineance moralists...

if you really care about pain and suffering start with humans..there is enough there to keep you busy for a long long time!!!

I shoot rabbits and pheasents (not peasants) but I eat what I kill...does that make me any worse then going to tesco's and buying a steak..the only difference is that my rabbits dont come shrink wrapped, injected with chemicals and soemone else didnt have to do the wet work for me...

Death and violence are part of nature always have always will be, civilisation is putting our perception out of proportion to what we are...under our clothes we are animals to...just have a look in you mouth..canines, maulers and incisors.....

rant mode off..flame suit on!!!

Diablo

Fine, so lets see the huntsmen rip the fox to pieces before "blooding" those new to the hunt .

No, didn't think so.............

My issue is with unnecessary suffering and cruelty for the amusement of a minority of individuals. Its got nothing to do with money, class (as the two are not always linked) or what they wear.

D




[Edited by diablo - 9/17/2002 2:07:36 PM]