co55ie

I was not aware that the saff run nitrius.
Regardless it is a very very quick car
lol at 4 by 4 comments have a look at the reyland car's.Blowing everything else away.
I can decimate a scooby in my own car its not even fun including modded ones with supposed outputs of 350 bhp.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Oh Subaru's are tempremental over 300bhp?

There are probably more tempremental cosworths running 300bhp than there are Scoobs
I have pointed out before that someone in Australia (who are the best at tuning scoobs BTW) got just under 600hp out of an MY01 WRX (starting life as 215bhp), no doubt it cost an arm and a leg but the thing you have to understand is that 1. it was reliable, 2. it was running less than 20psi, now how many cosworth tuners run less than 20psi?
NONE
Anyway, to get my Impreza to the same BHP as yours nowerdays would cost the same as it cost you, simple as that so where is the point in you waffling on about how reliable cosworth engines are when you can get the same power and reliability out of a subaru engine? (and yes you can get powerful scoobs with reliability).
Simple fact for you to remember...
Cosworth built your engine, they didnt build your car, that was down to ford, if it wasnt for cosworth you wouldnt even own a ford, you would probably own something else instead

Tony

co55ie

and if your subaru didn't have a turbo charged engine you would probably drive a kia pride or something who cares.
You are speaking b o l l ox with regards to scooby lumps.
Show me a UK big Power UK Scooby
It costs 12000k to get 380 bhp from an evo according to P.E
3.5k for 380 from a cossie.
12k will get you 450 from a cossie 500 plus if your handy with a spanner.
35k will get you 750 bhp from a cossie lump

Carlos The Jackel

Must be the most sensible thing posted on here All cars have pros & cons and none are perfect. Its mostly down to money really isn't it. Some cossie owners have cossie's because they can afford a decent scoob. More scoob owners only have a scoob because they can't afford an Evo. Some people like me don't really care, we buy a car because we love it for some unknown reason! If I won the lottery my first car would be an Escort cosworth because that in real life terms means more to me than a Ferrari or a Porcshe. In 10 years time the Scoobie owners will be on another bb arguing the case for their "old" scoobie's to a group of more "fashion" and "magazine review" oriented people who beleive thier car is better because a mag says so - just like this

RichardPON

Tony,

RS500 Touring cars were running 500+ bhp from day one. Ford spent a lot of money on those cars, they won a lot of races, and then became too quick for the sport.

However, if you mean 500+bhp road cars, I think the first generally accepted one was a Turbosystems RS500 from back in 1988... but don't quote me on that!

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Richard,
Possably yes but for the road going rs500's they disabled 4 injectors and one fuel rail didnt they? so basically you had a race spec'd engine but very detuned (as race engines are rather expensive so none of the internals would have been up to race spec! )
The RS500's engine though is the best cosworth 2ltr 16v turbo'd engine due to the fact that it has 8 injectors, also parts like the intercooler were larger and the power output slightly higher over the standard "cheap" RS's??
And isnt it also a fact that when people go for big tuned cosworth engines they use RS500 parts as the standard engine aint up to it? (just to p155 co55ie off )

Tony

RichardPON

Tony,

Agreed that RS500 parts are used for big bhp engines. For example, the intercooler is about 5 times bigger than the 4x4 one!

The cossie is, though, old technology. Even most tuners will tell you the cossie is a pinto block with a 16v head. Like most have said, it's tried and tested technology, although there are a few cars out there trying new things.

Recently I was privileged to look at a new cossie lump being built with a roller bearing throttle body, T71 turbo, and some trick electronic management. Having said that, it's mega money to go that route......

Marco Polo

This is how it works....................if you have money, you can make any car go really fast, it's a simple as that the more you blow the faster you will go

Depends on what budget you have got to spend on a car to be honest, if i was a millionare the car that i would build would be a true monster.......because i'm not a millionare, i'll have to settle with a sh!ty old 400bhp 3dr.

As being a cossie owner for 8/9yrs now , i must admit that i have been to hell and back with this car moddifing it , when the car was 330bhp it was so reliable and never really had much promblems with it, when the engine wore out and started smoking 50 **** a day... lol...., i decided to go for the 400+bhp conversion , i have had a few problems since partly my fault and partly not, but i will never go to this set up again.
if i could have turned back the clock i would have stayed at 330bhp
but when your a petrol head you always want more and more power.

for what i have spent to make the car 80/90bhp faster, it's just not worth it........and it's not really loads faster than 330bhp conversion to an extent

if i could turn back the clock, i would gone for the 500+Bhp conversion no questions ,and wish i did now ...

and the 500+bhp conversion is more reliable than a 400bhp conversion on a cossie, reasons being that you have the luxury of a big T04/0E, and 8 injectors ,where as the 400bhp has only 4 injectors and a T035, every thing is being squeezed out turbo/injectors and they are on their limits,

There is a few people on this board that have got the same conversion as mine and they have had simailar problems 400BHP no good.
simple as sorry cossie lads but thats the truth

CC

Tony, not sure what you're inferring, but A Sierra/Escort Cosworth is MUCH more than just a Cosworth developed engine. They handle due to having Bilstein shock absorbers as standard, much thicker anti roll bars than the normal Sierra/Escort...in fact a totally revised suspension and steering geometry, yes, designed by good old Ford . The shock absorbers are actually Bilstein items as standard and are very taut on the road. Springs were also uprated.

The brake well. The original Sierra Cosworth had FOUR pot piston callipers, back in 1986, the Scoobs had to make to with 2 pots for years didn't they? The 4*4 Safs used vented discs, the normal Sierra didn't. The Escorts were practically hand built.

The shells are strengthened and have extra anti-corrosion protection, being assembled in Germany, whereas the normal Sierras were assembled in the UK.

The gearbox is a Borg-Warner T5 unit, used by lots of muscle cars in the US, known for it's reliability, able to handle high bhp, and a nice, if slightly notchy, gear change. Very short throw too .

There's other stuff I can't recall but there's plenty of info if u care to look it up, instead of jumping to conclusions. The Cosworth range of road are far more than just fantastic engines...

...and so what if Cosworth were responsible for the motor? Big deal! Is the Audi RS4 any less a car because Porsche had input... I think not. I was proud that Cosworth had input into my Sierra Cosworth, and proud that my Sierra Cosworth was one of the very few road cars that had the prestigious Cosworth badge, a name synomonous with racing success and engineering excellence .

Mad4it

Marco Polo - Well, what can I say, apart from "Well Put".

co55ie

Seems you are very ignorant on this subject Tony.
The escort and 4by4 saff uses a mass production version of the RS500 block which has thicker linings and improved cooling channels and is known as a 200 block.
If your calculations were correct 500 bhp from a cossie would have been achieved in the year 2000 LOL.
500 bhp plus was first achieved in 1987 with the advent of the RS500
Cosworth pistons and many other cossie parts are used to tune a scooby if you want power. Cossie pistons are lighter and much better quality than scooby ones.
The scooby engine is no more advanced than the cossie. The cossie is far better quality being totally over engineered. The scooby lump is not regarded as being very good very fragile and expensive to tune. If you are told otherwise then you are being humoured by whoever tells you any different.
The YB is an absolute classic the best 2.0litre turbo to date ring up Mountune and ask them or maybe you know better.
Stop trying to defend the fact that your car is mechaniically inferior face it.
Subaru developed engine versus Cosworth developed engine no contest.
Show me a fast UK scooby there IS NOT ONE IN THE WHOLE BLOODY COUNTRY.
As for the image thing I think the residuals speak for themselves. A D reg sierra will fetch more than a 6 month old scoob stop kidding yourselves

[Edited by co55ie - 9/12/2002 1:14:19 AM]

[Edited by co55ie - 9/12/2002 1:15:37 AM]

rich uk300

A D reg sierra will fetch more than a 6 month old scoob stop kidding yourselves

seen d reg sierra's for about £50

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Time to p155 on cossies bonfire

Tony

RichardPON

Cossie,

Since I too am a cossie owner, I like to defend my favoured marque as much as the next man, but come on, are you serious?

Take my saff 2wd running 290 bhp approx (chip, greens etc), and put it up against a decat PPP'd impreza. Use what I consider to be the three standard comparisons and it's gonna be close.....

1/4 mile - I should get pasted.... that spec scoob capable of running low 13s, where my best is a 13.6

Track - If the guy can take advantage of the 4wd, I'm gonna get whooped on.... big time. Scoob will carry 15-20mph more than me in your average 4th gear corner.

Top speed - probably close, but I couldn't give a rat's *** about that, cos top speed doesn't indicate much of a car's ability.

To make another comparison, my Dad drives a "stage 1" Pulsar GTiR. Betweeen 40 and 120 mph, there is nothing in it. Off the line, he whoops my car. Round the twisties, he whoops my car.

The Cosworth engine may be fantastic, and I love it, but to say my car has been reliable is a joke. I have been let down by engine ancillaries, wiring, and knackered old parts. My cossie is now relaible cos I spent a small fortune replacing every hose, wire, cable and part on the car......

Name me any other make of car where you know as many people who have had to have engine rebuilds.....

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

1989 FORD SIERRA COSWORTH, 1989, F reg . 400 BHP, full leather, sports gearbox, full electrics, over £6k spent, all receipts kept, superbly kept car, looks and drives superb . may P/X or poss swap . Tel: or. . . . . (trade) more info

£3,995

Hey look it has 400bhp and only costs 4k and its newer than your car cossie, and look what i also found here

1988 FORD SIERRA RS Cosworth Sapphire 4dr Saloon 1988 Blue. 30000 miles. Tel: Email: . . . . (private) more info

£3,500

Look only 30k on the clock and its how much???

Cossie, you live in cookoo la la land, and before you even come back we all know that subaru's will end up like this, you just dont seem to understand that your car is there already...
And you still havnt listened to what im saying, cosworth engineering who do forged pistons etc are NOT a member of the ford group, they are independants, where as Cosworth engines are a part of the ford group, 2 different companies...
Also reliability... my mate has a 330bhp cossie (sierra), everything he had done to it was done properly, so one day he starts the car up in the morning to go to work and BANG, out goes a piston, oh look reliable...... NOT! (and this car had under 60k on the clock!) so dont say that the cosworth engine is the best engineered engine in the world because its not, its far from perfect.

Tony

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Before any of you other cosworth guys get the hump, what we are trying to do here is bring Co55ie off his high horse thinking that scoob engines are cr@p.
We know they aint the best but that gives the tuners a challenge and one that has been taken up by quite a few.
How many powerful uk cars?
Well the fact that all scoobs come out of the same factory, the fact that the engine in the wrx and the uk car is similar and the fact that STi tuned cars run some other forged parts.... well, if you take into consideration that a uk car is just a detuned version of a WRX (which the originals were) then you can look at some of the near 400bhp cars that are now running in this country, but what people dont understand is that the Impreza turbo was overlooked for a number of years and it wasnt really until 96/97 that it took off, then by the end of 98 after IM kept the prices sky high it took a drop but trust me, 500bhp reliable will be here soon there are already 600-700bhp cars running in australia, no doubt the yanks will have some wonderful power figures for us too but its just a matter of time before we get seriously big power cars over here.
Anyway this is now boring me.... if cossie really knew his stuff then he would know that the rs500 engine was detuned for the road car, now what i was saying is that a normal cosworth engine (as the rs500 engine differs considerably over the standard unit) would take much more money to tune, thus the reason people use alot of rs500 engine components to get big power.

Tony

Toad

Without having a dig cossie the only cossies that ask money are the RS200 very very rare!!!The RS500 also very rare and still perhaps an escort cosworth.But you can pick up escort cosworths up for about £10K now!
But sierra sapphire cosworths RWD and 4X4 can be bought for as little as £2K!!!If anyone is willing to pay £10K for a sapphire cosworth they are obviously looking in the wrong place and or must be mad!!!!!
Concourse show room condition models may ask £8000 but definately no more.The saph/sierra cossies are also common as **** and are widely available hence keeping prices lower.


Toad.

RichardPON

Cossie,

I don't buy that. I couldn't justify spending 10k on a 500+bhp engine to tune it down to 450, with that loss in fuel economy, increase in lag, and loss of driveability and everyday performance.

Sure, a 500+ conversion isn't stressing the turbo, as you're using a T4, but how reliable is the conversion? Reliable enough to need a rebuild every 15-20,000 miles!

I agree with ya that parts will need replacing on a 1988 car, which mine is.... but complete engine wiring loom?

Toad

Co55ie,when you say mint I presume you mean concourse condition?There can't be that many of those type of cars about now?
Agreed a top spec concourse escort cossie will still fetch £15K plus but again these type of original cars with low miles are extremely rare as most have been thrashed,crashed and generally abused.
I am surprised that a mint sapphire cossie will still fetch upto £12K as there are so many of them.But I spose looking at it from the other side of things a genuine trully standard mint sapphire/sierra cossie must be very very rare indeed as most have been thrashed crashed and trashed modded and stolen,clocked hence demanding a high premium.
It must be a real knightmarre trying to find a really genuine good cossie as there are so many abused examples out there?


Toad.

Carlos The Jackel

You would almost certainly get a dog of Escort Cossie for 10k. Most seem to be about 12k+ (im hoping prices will fall soon). As for saffs you can get a decent one for 5k.

Redkop

Orig by: RichPON:

Quote:

I couldn't justify spending 10k on a 500+bhp engine to tune it down to 450, with that loss in fuel economy, increase in lag, and loss of driveability and everyday performance

Gonna disagree with you here Rich [so dont bite my head off]

Firstly, if you use someone like Carl Bridson to build you an engine the cost is nowhere near 10k and you know the spec. of Andy's engine in his RS500.

You do not have to lose fuel economy - because you have a 12 stage boost setting and only use full boost to bring in all injectors when you find it necessary.
Therefore, for everyday use you set boost setting between 1 & 6 - equiv. to about 360bhp
Andy has tracked his car at CC, TOTB & Dono and the only thing to go wrong was frying his alternator due to the excessive heat generated by the T4 at full boost on track.
It's as Marco says, sometimes it's false economy to go down the 400+bhp conversion route.
It is a necessary requirement to have the engine mapped and set up correctly, which I doubt some of these people claiming 'I have 400bhp' have had done or a check made on fuelling or for detting, one of the main reasons why pistons melt.

Edited becos I forgot to say......My 8 year old Esc Cos has agreed value for insurance purposes of 15k as standard + mods i.e. wheels, AP 4 pots bringing it to an agreed valuation of 17½k



[Edited by Redkop - 9/12/2002 2:19:37 PM]

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

did you take this from the 1996 edition???

i know the RSOC over priced ther cars but that is a p1ss take!

co55ie

Not really Jonny if you want a truly mint condition car thats worth buying then you will have to pay top dollar.
some private ads in this months fast ford
1989 2 wd Saff 7k no offers
1990 4by4 saff 8.5k
1993 escort 14k
1990 rebuilt 2wd saff 10k
rs500 15k no offers
95 escort cossie 17.5k
95 escort cossie 16.5k
Of course you can buy an old shed for a few K but a decent example will cost these are not the most expensive cars offered either just a cross section.

CC

Cossie, I admire the way you're sticking up for Cossie, but those valuations are way out m8, but not as low as what TOAD reckons -

TOAD, NO WAY will you get a decent Saf for 2K!!! If u can, show me one and I'll buy it, and I'll sort you out with £100 for your trouble. Bet you don't. Also, Sierra/Sapphire Cosworths common as muck??!!! Complete bolox again! Do you bloody homework will you! I am really surprised by some of the crap posted on here at times!
Impreza, even just the Turbos, are FAR more common than all the Cossie road cars combined!

The reason they're affordable is cos A they weren't exactly Porsche money when new and B they're getting old. A good 1989 Saf will fetch best part of 4k all day long. For a car that cost 20k when new, being worth 4k 13 YEARS later aint so bad.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

i would value a mint condition 1990 2wd saph at around 5k max no matter what the mods are, you said it yourself co55ie,get one and do it up yourself so you know that the internals are right.

its a buyers market and i don't think there are many people willing to part with 10k for a 12 year old cossie.

true, if i wanted a 500bhp monster for the weekend there is only the cossie in my price range and could get one for around 4k in good enough condition to start work on.

that would leave me 6k for mods, i am sure there are plenty of tuners out there that would give me that sort of power for that money.

if i did that i know there is no way i would be able to get any of the money back that i had spent on mods when it comes to selling it.

co55ie

The values I stated are not my own they are the RSOC figures and as I stated the ads are from this months fast ford mag.
Regarding the saff the prices range from 4k to 10k for a rebuilt 2wd
the 4 by 4's start from around 6k upwards
The cheapest escort is 13k for a 95 model.
RS car's have a huge following the world over and people are prepared to pay money for good examples.
Saff's aern't really that common I think only 7,000 2wd where made and 8,000 4wd versions compare that to the massive amount of scoob,s etc and thats why they hold there values. There must be at least 16000 deifferent ltd edition Impreza models alone!!!!! Which I find a bit sad. the RB5, series Mcrae, P1 22b series hairdryer talk about trying to cash in. Subaru will be making lunchboxes with them on soon there marketing is almost as bad as Man U's thats why they are worth didley squat secondhand.

I agree with you Jonny I bought a mechanical sh1tter which had very good bodywork and did it up its as good as new now. Total cost about 14k in total now. I could sell it for 9k no problems in a year or so's time. You will never get your cash back for mod's on any car.
Many people don't want to tackle working on a vehicle so are prepared tp apy good money for one were all the work has been done.
And as you so rightly state what other car costing this amount of cash can offer the same level of performance and that was my original point. The answer is none.
[Edited by co55ie - 9/12/2002 4:14:02 PM]

[Edited by co55ie - 9/12/2002 4:18:01 PM]

CC

johny, that last post was one of the most sensible things i've read from you. I totally agree - for performace AND reliability, a scoob is perfect . Mine never missed a beat either although i didnt own it that long.

Sorry to hear your Cossie was a bad 'un, indeed there are plenty of bads one about . But i had my Cossie for over 4 years, and it that time it never let me down once. I had some issues with it but nothing beyond basic wear and tear as i hammered it (but always looked after it servicing wise). And it gave me a much greater driving pleaseure than the Scoob did. But thats only my opinio, you obviously enjoyed driving your scoob much more, horses for courses, it's good people like different things. But one persons *opinion* is not more right than someone elses when talking about cars imo.

Marco Polo

My cossie engine was dyno'ed and had a live mapp afterwards :P

why my engine didn't last was the simple fact is, that my fuel pump pack up,(only standard pump but normally up to the job), i did most of the damage on the rolling road, i could here the engine detting

I have a Group A fuel pump on the car now and just waiting to buy a forged 2wd cossie piston,(No Pistons in stock @ Graham Goode's) Then i'm back on the road I can't wait

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

cc- yeah,i have my sensible head on today

you're right it is horses for courses.

RichardPON

Jonny Gav,

5k for any saff no matter what mods? You sure?

Have to agre with CC here though. I paid a smidge over 2k for my saff and it was a 5hitbox.