Cosworth427

I don't build engines. I don't die cast cylinder blocks or billet machine components if that's what you mean. On the other hand, bolting on new heads or new intercoolers don't qualify as engine building neither. Which I suspect many of the people here do at the most.

I get my information from disassembly, assembly, examination, research and I share real information from people who have more club raced/tuned engines and tuned cars for the past 20 years. Oh, AND books too by the way, as if that's a bad thing.

My knowledge and experience is based on variety of engines, not just "yank tank" stuff. 4 cylinders, inline-6, V8's, DOHC, SOHC, push-rod, cam and rocker arms, I respect and understand them all.

By the way, your beloved Cosworth engine technology all comes from research, academic data and experimentation, NOT from sales reps, and blatant pub talk. So if you think it's wrong for someone to get their information in a scientific way, then you really need to get a reality check.

Carlos The Jackel

Cosworth427 appears to be anouther me1201020210 from Fiestaturbo.com if anyone can remember him - LOL

Cosworth427

T16GER

Very well. The problem isn't just within this forum, or with certain Cosworth owners. It is a problem with anyone who is ignorant in other things beyond what they are familiar with. I have have run into many "muscle heads" who can't see the point with any other engine unless it is a V8. I have seen ryce boys who think DOHC technology is more sophisticated and "high-tech" than a push-rod. I have arguements with Euros-snobs who think nothing can beat Ferrari/Porsche when it comes to quality and performance.

The AMAZING thing is that these individuals (all over the world) may lots of speficic knowledge in the engine or car they OWN, but OTOH have non-existent knowledge about other cars and engines. And those with big mouths will trash talk about cars that are different to what they drive.

As I said before, I LOVE ALL kinds of 4-stroke engines. I plan to plant a 350, or HOPEFULLY 427 cu inch Ford V8 into a MK3 Supra in a few years time - when money, time and equipment is ready. I know someone who has planted a Ford V8 into a Mazda RX-7, so these Japanese/American hybrids are possible, and very interesting. I can have as much power as a stage 4 turbo tune but with no turbolag and a great roar you just can't acheive with a straight-six turbo. Yet I can have as much N/A power in a Supra 427/350 as a 60's muscle car, but with fully independent suspension, and 25+ years of improved chassis development to deal with the torque.

Anyway, enough of dreaming, the reality is that just because someone has knowledge in one type of car and engine, it doesn't give him/her any right or any solid basis to critise something different unless he/she has knowledge and experience in that too.

I hope that clears a few things up.

Cosworth427

Carlos The Jackel

Er...I don't know what Fiesta Turbos have anything to do with this discussion.

If you don't have anything to contribute, then STFU.

Carlos The Jackel

LOL the only thing better than your so-called "aquired" car knowledge is your continued "better than you" stance. Some of these people on here like Martin are well respected for their motoring knowledge, you arguments seem quite well constructed - to a point! but your continual "put downs" on people with different opinions suggests you have an insecurity complex.

T16GER

Cosworth427,

I do agree with you that a lot of people do only know about the car that they drive and they do think that theirs is the best thing ever...(which is why this thread started in the first place IMHO). Then there are those people out there (maybe like yourself) who do know alot about a wide variety of cars and engine and technology...and then there are a few of us out there that know bugger all about engines etc, and don't pretend to, I never try to have a technical discussion about stuff like that as I know the limitation of my knowledge.

Your statement does clear a lot of things up, but I do have to say that you do seem to have been putting people down without fully understanding their knowledge and appreciation of the motor car and engine...

johnfelstead

hahahahaha Love this thread, it's way lacking in some colour though, so to put a few things in perspective and to show some images of what is posible with cossies, scoobs and V8's for that matter. here goes.

First of all, i think cossies are the dogs bollox, i have a lot of time for guys like martin who can build proper quick cars, not sure he can drive for ****, but i havent had much chance to see that for myself.

I know Gareth Lloyd a bit, have raced against him for years with the esprit and his car is mental fast for a tintop, he is also a really top bloke who can drive, won his class in the 24hr race at the ring! It was huge fun seeing him run his car at the top10 elvington day, i know whats under the skin of that car and it's very special.

Gareth took me for a lap in his genuine road car escort cossie at nurburg, 350BHP and Koni's on 18" wheels with AP 330mm brakes. Blew me away, a lot was down to his driving ability, but could that car shift, braking was astonishing. I almost bought an escort cossie after that, but i couldnt find a decent one, thats the problem with escort cossies, lots of **** out there.

I have owned an run as a daily driver a 2wd sapphire cossie, running a genuine 350BHP with a nice not too silly hybrid turbo. I put 99,000 miles on that car and sold it to an RS owners club regional organisor, it still had all its original panels and had no rust. It was the last RWD sapph being a H plate, which are quite rare. I took that on track a lot, including the RS owners club first day at silverstone, it was pretty damn fast, awesome through copse in particular. I loved the way that car handled, you cant beat RWD for FUN! It was an expensive car to run, i spent £7K in 12 months on that thing, part of that was down to using it on track, and me being a bit **** about keeping the car mint mechanically, but there you go.

I ran my Impreza sport for 2 1/2 years, cheapest 2 1/2 years motoring ever, that car was superb, it just lacked grunt to overtake, it was very quick in the twisties.

My westie was something else. That had a 330BHP escort cossie engine, 2wd T5 box and 7" LSD rear diff. That was proper quick, 0-155 in 17.5 seconds. At the RS owners club day 0-60 last year it was second fastest, 0.01s behind a 500BHP RS200 that had all the benefits of AWD, 0-100 my westie would have cleaned up. I cant help but laugh at all these comments about how fast peoples cars are, my westie wasnt the ultimate, but it makes scoobs and cossies look positively slow, do i miss that car! The engine in that car was superb, i just installed a GroupA head gasket, droped the CR a bit for 97RON and installed a decent turbo, that car ran 20,000 miles pretty much flat out including many trips to the ring and back whilst i owned it, it had 40K miles on teh clock when i killed it, the car kept falling apart LOL but the running gear was spot on! 165MPH in a westie, unheard of until mine. Ask mike rainbird what it accelerated like compared to his ex 2wd 540BHP saph, i gave him a fright on the way to the ring.

Moving on to the competition cars (all the above were genuine road cars) i help run a GroupA Escort Cossie in the forests, we ran a saph cossie in 1999 and led the BTRDA outright for most of the season against fully active WRC EVO's, Escorts and Scoobs. We lost that championship because of a broken gearbox, we couldnt aford the trick stuff and were using an MT75/sport and the mainshaft just couldnt last the season. The car we run now is a lovely piece of kit, proper high compresion WRC spec engine, big diffs front and rear etc but we are fighting a losing battle against the active cars. It would still make any of the road cars you lot are spouting on about look silly up to 125MPH, it would outacelerate the lot, even on gravel. As for handling, with £1000 a corner 3 way adjustable Proflex it would make any of your road spec kit look positively agricultural, not to mention the magnesium uprights and fully rosejointed suspension.

You then have my STi5 TypeRA, the suspension is tired, it's boggo standard on engine, has some nice 330mm front AP's though, the only cossie faster than it at the top10 shootout handling section was Gareth Lloyd, which it should be seem as though he has double my power and a full works 7 speed box, not to mention R rated tyres and a proper race setup. I was amazed my TypeRA was so close, i was less than 2 seconds slower in the wet than my dry time too, which says volumes about how agile the Scoob is and how much traction it has with the centre diff wound forward. I was just 0.01s behind the fastest highly modded EVO too, 4th overall in what was almost completely standard spec, that says a lot for what a Subaru can do.

Th car i am building right now for the road/track will make my westie look positively slow, it will have about 640BHP/Tonne with all the kit to make it work, i'll wave at the scoobs and cossies as i go by.

But if you want to see proper performance, wait till next year when the Esprit i help run is back on track, basic statistics are 6 litre alloy V8, 600BHP N/A, GT/F1 under the skin, 730Kg, 830BHP/tonne and it handles better than anything you could buy for the road.

And this isnt fast really when you look at what an F1 or GT prototype can do. This thread is so funny.

Scoobs are fabulous road cars, so are cossies, so are EVO's. Can we not just agree that they are all great cars, but in the big scheme of things, they are all feckin SLOW!

OK, Picies

Try doing this in an AWD cossie, you cant because you cant dial out the front diff at will, like you can with an STi5 TypeRA. Me at Dono.


This is what escort cossies were designed for, the GroupA car i help run in BTRDA


The Esprit when it was in 5 litre 400BHP spec passing Gareth Lloyd


My Westie at Oulton Park


OK carry on.

martin_reyland

427, 'knowledgable comments'?, who said i was knowlegable?! not me,this is just my opinion and until a camaro passes me it won't change, put your money where your mouth buy one of these beasts and prove me wrong. until then over and out..........

CraigH

Cosworth427,

Thought we were talking handling, not lateral grip? Which is it?

I have nothing against American cars - or any other to be honest - but you seem to be excessively defensive about them. I don't doubt the potential of heavy "simple" American cars such as Vipers or Corvettes, but it only seems to be these 2 which have any impact on the World Racing scene - both run with mega budgets btw.

a Camaro will never make a good rally car and I can't see your point or logic in questioning this - it's too big and heavy - simple.
For tight circuits it's too big and heavy. Simple.
but as Sprint Chief said, for circuits like Paul Ricard it would suit it.

However - being suited to one indivdual circuit restricts it's potential somewhat - whereas an all rounder like Martins can hold it's own in most situations.

No-one is debating btw the tuning potential or ability of American engines either are they? As to you using Co55ie's comments as an indication of people on this board, I wouldn't bother - he is truly deluded

As an aside, comparing a Race series in the States is no more meaningful than comparing the BTCC to Nascar.
Although it'd be very entertaining to mix the 2 though eh?
Or GTs and Nascar - or the LM series......

RichardPON

John,

Is that McLeans you're going round in the scoob? Nice photo!

dingy

Looks like the melbourne loop Rich

dingy

C055IE do you have a GGR zorst on your car....

You slag off magnex, yet these 2 come from the same factory in derbyshire.

redmonster

Another war thread found at scoobynet,which one is better scoob or cossie? depends what u want.Cossies are dated and don't look nice,Cossie owners stop slagging off cheap subaru interior,yeah its true Interior is from a sunny but cossies don't have any better quality interior!.Looks? Scoobs look bit better because they are newer.Performance? thats a difficult one.Scoobs are not reliable and very hard to get more than 350bhp without selling your house you dog your mom etc.An RS 500 don't forget that can transform to a 400bhp weapon with wayyyy much less money than Subarus can.What i don't understand is why people in here keep fighting with other car owners. A car is very personal and unique to what an owner wants and how good a driver is.Some people like 4wd because they corner well but they forget how much power they lose from 4wd,
350bhp is not much for a 4wd car.
You want some real power? Get a skyline or a Supra.Yeah u'll say they are heavy.Subarus ain't light 1500kgs for a skyline or a supra against 1340 for a normal subaru.Then don't even think about it comparing money for performance.Spend 10K for a skyline and get 500+.Spend the same for a subaru and get 350-360!.
So stop fighting and think what u really want from a car------------------------------------------------
All high performance cars are good for what u want them to be good at

co55ie

Dingy I am glad to say that I don't have an exhaust system that has been welded with bubble gum like magnex system's. Mine is completely tig welded including all edges of the cans and is a one off more similar to a high quality jap job.

Sprint Chief

Redmonster - generally I agree with your sentiments, horses for courses and all.

But then you go and spoil it all by making a number of statements about specific figures which are just lining up to be shot down!

Since I can't resist...

You imply 10k will get you 350-360bhp in a scoob, well there are at least a couple on this website who have managed that sort of power for just a couple of k worth of mods. Don't forget the jap scoobs make 270bhp+ as standard, 350bhp ain't that far away! There are a lot more horror stories as well though - people spending big money on scoobs and getting less - probably because budget scoob mods are further back on the learning curve than cossies.

You then quote the weight of the scoob as 1340kg, kerb weight for the classic scoob is 1235kg, and I think there are even lighter ones than that (type RA etc.) May not sound like much down from 1500kg, but then we are talking about the equivalent of three full size adults, and you know how much of a difference that makes to a cars performance.

Also you say 350bhp is not much in a AWD car - depends on what you want to do with it. If you are looking for 10 second quarters, then 350bhp will be a lame duck in a scoob. If you want fun round a track, 350bhp can be plenty in a well sorted car.

Again, horses for courses, make your own decision and don't listen to others, but beware when quoting figures because this just adds fuel to the fire. BTW just to add there are probably plenty of mistakes in my figures above

Having said that, nothing wrong with a bit of lively debate as well, I reckon makes quite interesting threads. From that point of view, scoobs are better than everything lol

Toad

I think many on here are missing the point.The cosworth has been round for over 15 years and hence many companies have tuned it and there are many tuning options and hence they have pushed the limits very far.
As regards to the evolution/5/6 and the suburu variants they have been round for less than half that time and hence tuning/development is a lot further behind.I own a ralliart evo 6 and in standard nick is pretty quick.But the norris evo is certainly the flagship model of modifying.It has over 570BHP and 550ilbft of torque and is trully awesome a match for most cars.
And bear in mind that the mitsubishi evo5/6 won the world rally championship three straight years.That was no fluke.The escort cosworth WRX did not win a rally world championship.
But aside all this both the cossies and evo's imprezas are excellent cars.They are all awesome and the ford is buy far the most tuneable.But the jap cars are catching up.
Each cars have their followers and there will always be my car is faster than yours banter.The Jap cars as standard certainly will have an edge over cosworths but modifying the cosworths still have the edge but the jap cars are catching up.


Toad.

co55ie

Totally agree with that.
As you state out of the box cossies are not all that but awesome in modded form. A saff at trax pulled a 2.9 to 60 bloody quick. Cossies are much cheaper to tune aswell offering the most bang for your buck.
Can't see the point of buying a 20k car to modify myself. Buy one with good bodywork and knackered mechanics then build the car to your own spec you know exactly whats been done and in my own case have a warranty on the mechanics. 13k for a car in perfect mechanical condition better than new really with over 400 bhp is a good deal if you ask me.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

yeah,you keep trying to convince yourself that a sierra is really worth spending 13k on....

rich1231

2.9 to 60 330hp methinks you live in cloud cookoo land cossie.

Was it a radio control car and the speed was scaled?

RichardPON

Rich,

I think you'll find 330 bhp was never mentioned, but a powerful 4x4 saff pulled a 0-60 of 2.99 @ Ford Fair, and a 3.08 at Trax.....

rich1231

Richard,
read Co55ies post before mine...
He does mention a 330bhp Co55ie at Trax!!

rich uk300

RichardPON

Rich,

I stand corrected. Just having a blurry vision day today

Cossie is indeed talking bollox!

Toad

That certainly is shifting!!!
I find the evo/cossie/impreza debate interesting and amusing.Each car has there own unique advantages.The cossie is ultimately tuneable.The evo has excellent performance off the production line and physics denying handling and the impreza has a good allround level of performance.
At the end of the day it is all down to personnal taste but bear things in mind...
It is all well tuning your car to 500/600BHP but the driving characteristics of the engine will be crap.It will have such a narrow power band that the car will be unusable on the road.I think big power is more to do with ego's than it is for anything else.Bear in mind a car of that power will need an engine rebuild every 5-10000miles with poor reliability.
It is much better to have a car to around 350BHP with a well built engine with a good spread of torque that will at least be reliable etc.
I think torque counts a lot more than BHP,my opinion.


Toad.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

John F's reply, EXCELLENT
John only lives down the road from me and his STi5 Type RA V-Ltd is fantastic his westie was one hell of a nice car too and the fact that the only things John has really done to his car is the AP brake conversion (which is a must, even on a UK car uprated brakes are a must!) and a Back Box (and the fact that he can drive that car within 99.9% of how its meant to be driven ) is also a big plus
Me, ive a lowly UK turbo with PPP and a downpipe, no its not the quickest car around, it will cost me to get some decent power out of the engine but then again its the same with any car, no doubt Martin has put alot of time and effort getting his Escort Cossie to the standard that he wanted it, but ask him how much it cost and i bet you could get within 50bhp with a scoob to that power!
The trouble is as has been said is that the cosworth engine has been around for quite a long time so people have had more time to tune them and get to know how reliable they can be if done properly, but i bet it cost the first people to get 400bhp 5 or 6 times as much as it did for the "next generation" of cosworth tuners because they were the fore runners and thus have to pay the price so that others can follow
As for Subaru engine reliability.... well, they have had their ups and downs and you see one or two people posting saying that this has gone, thats blown but imagine if we would have had the internet in the 80's? i bet you would have seen the same ammount of cosworth owners posting the same on a similar board saying that their standard engine has given up the ghost, and dont say it doesnt happen, it does and every engine manufacturer out there knows that no engine is 100% reliable, nor the gearbox, clutch, diffs, driveshafts etc... but they can get 99.999999% of it right in the first place that last .000001% will be cheap to fix in comparason
The other point i wish to make is that people come on here and slate a Marque that we on this board like, it doesnt mean that we dont like our cars but we will retaliate with remarks about their Marque and so this will go on until we can put a stop to the to55ers who do this.
Everyone talks about 1/4mile times as if they are wonderful, wow, my 249bhp scoob did a 13.9 sec 1/4mile time and i was bogging the turbo down so i should have been good for 13.5secs but what i really like is the fact that people think that this makes a fast car?
To me (and probably alot of other people out there) i would rather be able to do 60-100mph in 4 secs in 5th!!! gear now that would be impressive

Tony

Toad

Co55ie-At the end of the day,what does it matter if your car is faster than my evo or a scooby???I am sure your 400BHP cossie will pretty much leave my evo standing!But I'm really not that bothered cos I just love the car and love to drive it.Speed is pretty irrelevant really it's all down to what you want,enjoyment,enthusiasm and having fun.I fully accept that there are probably RS turbos that could take me out but I don't care cos I'm having fun!!!It's not what you've got it's how you enjoy it!!!


Toad.

co55ie

The scooby engine has been around for nearly 10 years now stop making excuses for it and scooby tuners. Every scooby tuner on the planet will tell you that these lumps are extremely tempremental at much above 300 bhp and then its a case of wack in the cossie stuff to strengthen it. Tuning a turbo engine is fairly simple strengthen it and turn up the boost to get power.
As for the comments about torque etc this is correct the yb significantly out performs all other 2 litre lumps in this dept.
Fancy a 760 bhp Turbo Technics cossie conversion have a look at there site if your interested.

RichardPON

Cossie,

Sorry mate, but you shouldn't believe everything you read. I know Steve quite well, and his car runs nothing like the spec you listed.

It runs a hybrid T35, RS500 i/c, 7.6:1 CR, Group A head, Level 8 with Pectel, and 100 shot of Nitrous!

So maybe you want to get some facts straight

CraigH

LOL,

What a shocker at Co55ie getting something wrong.

And here was me thinking he couldn't get any dumber lmfao

Mad4it

Just to add fuel to the fire -

I am lucky enough to have owned lots of different cars over the years, including Skyline, Cossie, Scooby, GTiR and Evo.

I would say that in my experience, a 300bhp Scooby is quicker than any 4wd Cosworth.

I love the Cossie's, as well as most 4wd's, but also know that the pdq Sapphire Cossie, does run 100bhp Nitrous.

Fair play though, not many cars can get into the 2's 0 - 60.