Adding Mods to your Insurance
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I have had mixed results with this topic. I bought an MY97 R reg with full PPP, STI4/MY99 higher level spoiler &17" speedlines, after speaking to endsleigh they agreed that as they knew F.ALL about the upgrades they would ring the Dealer to confirm mods before buying it!, insurance comes through with document - "the car is 1997 Turbo 2000 UK with no modifications" !!!!!
So rang them and someone found a note on file "engine chip fitted!". Fantastic???
however in case of claim i have the security that they rang and got the details direct from Subaru dealer and made policy with these details so it is there problem.
Finally - I pay over £2.5K with full NCB (23 yrs old) for this car so i would not be happy if they refused any claim!!!
So rang them and someone found a note on file "engine chip fitted!". Fantastic???
however in case of claim i have the security that they rang and got the details direct from Subaru dealer and made policy with these details so it is there problem.
Finally - I pay over £2.5K with full NCB (23 yrs old) for this car so i would not be happy if they refused any claim!!!
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Adam
The...lets get the power print done showing crap power has worked for me for years... that reminds me mines coming up for renewal so must make a trip to... erm... Powerstation
A few companies have refused to quote, when I tell them that the peak power is unchanged - they accuse me of lying even though I have the power run graph to prove it
My current insurer cant even get my name right (axa)- I've told them twice and I aint telling them again!
The...lets get the power print done showing crap power has worked for me for years... that reminds me mines coming up for renewal so must make a trip to... erm... Powerstation
A few companies have refused to quote, when I tell them that the peak power is unchanged - they accuse me of lying even though I have the power run graph to prove it
My current insurer cant even get my name right (axa)- I've told them twice and I aint telling them again!
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Guys,
when talking ins cos, please remember some of you are using brokers, these are not ins cos, they are just taking your details, and passing them on for a cut (typically 10% of your premium)
Endsleigh are a broker, as are Tescos etc....., AXA, Directline, Privaledge are Ins cos, very different kettle of fish.
One of the risky areas is modifying a car when you are using a broker, most of the time these guys do not know what you are going on about, and often do not give the correct story to the ins co, so you dont get a sensible answer back!
Do not EVER think that ins cos do not know what they are doing with mods, any decent ins co will have underwriters and inspectors that know a hell of a lot more about mods, and how to find them than 99% of the people on this site. The inspectors dont become involved unless they need to, but thats exactly when you really need your insurance. Burnt out cars, and they can still tell mods. Please dont fool yourselves that this isnt the case. As far as us being better in that we know that torque is what makes the difference, so do ins cos, BUT 99% of the population dont, so theres no point asking them, hence why we get asked for BHP increases.
Remember the Mclaren F1 that destroyed itself with that ex software guy, his missus and his proferssional driver on board? You would not believe the amount of money spent (by the ins co, ORION, owned by ex GRE) trying to identify who was actually driving!
How many industries do you know that know the more product they sell the bigger the loss will be!? I will just ask a few of you self employed consultants to come and work for me at between 90-95% of your cost. Bet you wouldnt be so keen would you!?
robski
when talking ins cos, please remember some of you are using brokers, these are not ins cos, they are just taking your details, and passing them on for a cut (typically 10% of your premium)
Endsleigh are a broker, as are Tescos etc....., AXA, Directline, Privaledge are Ins cos, very different kettle of fish.
One of the risky areas is modifying a car when you are using a broker, most of the time these guys do not know what you are going on about, and often do not give the correct story to the ins co, so you dont get a sensible answer back!
Do not EVER think that ins cos do not know what they are doing with mods, any decent ins co will have underwriters and inspectors that know a hell of a lot more about mods, and how to find them than 99% of the people on this site. The inspectors dont become involved unless they need to, but thats exactly when you really need your insurance. Burnt out cars, and they can still tell mods. Please dont fool yourselves that this isnt the case. As far as us being better in that we know that torque is what makes the difference, so do ins cos, BUT 99% of the population dont, so theres no point asking them, hence why we get asked for BHP increases.
Remember the Mclaren F1 that destroyed itself with that ex software guy, his missus and his proferssional driver on board? You would not believe the amount of money spent (by the ins co, ORION, owned by ex GRE) trying to identify who was actually driving!
How many industries do you know that know the more product they sell the bigger the loss will be!? I will just ask a few of you self employed consultants to come and work for me at between 90-95% of your cost. Bet you wouldnt be so keen would you!?
robski
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Robski,
Good point s all of them, but regardless of what the insurance comapnies feel on torque, they only tell you to comply with the power output. If you do what they tell you, and by increasing the torque not the power then you are, then they cannot use increased torque as a get out clause, it is illegal as it would be a break a term of teh insurance agreement.
I would like to ask if you think in the event of something like a crash, or potentially a write off of a something that has resulted in three deaths and doesn't cost teh best part of £700K, do you think an insurance company would bother to say, take an engine to pieces and check teh compression ratio, the stroke, the type of pistons etc?
Regardless of these mods, surely the output of cars such as ours is purely dependent on the map. What stops you from using the compensation switch on say a motec or inputting an entirely different map to reduce the boost targets in the event of a claim related incident.
Even if they know how to operate the ecus, they would never be able to prove the map that was being run in the event of an incident. It would need to be beyond reasonable doubt in order to win a court case, and it simply is not.
Good point s all of them, but regardless of what the insurance comapnies feel on torque, they only tell you to comply with the power output. If you do what they tell you, and by increasing the torque not the power then you are, then they cannot use increased torque as a get out clause, it is illegal as it would be a break a term of teh insurance agreement.
I would like to ask if you think in the event of something like a crash, or potentially a write off of a something that has resulted in three deaths and doesn't cost teh best part of £700K, do you think an insurance company would bother to say, take an engine to pieces and check teh compression ratio, the stroke, the type of pistons etc?
Regardless of these mods, surely the output of cars such as ours is purely dependent on the map. What stops you from using the compensation switch on say a motec or inputting an entirely different map to reduce the boost targets in the event of a claim related incident.
Even if they know how to operate the ecus, they would never be able to prove the map that was being run in the event of an incident. It would need to be beyond reasonable doubt in order to win a court case, and it simply is not.
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Adam,
I was agreeing with you re the torque, its working to our advantage, so smile.
As far as how far they would go, it does depend on circumstances, thats about as specific as I can get Im afraid. Other factors also come into play like has there been a lot of incidents, or only a few (i.e inspectors dont have a lot of work on), and do they have any reason to believe you may have messed with something, have you declared obvious items, is there anything dodgy on the claims databases. PIs are used where suspicion arises. Simple stuff like getting a discount for garaging your car. If its stolen from your drive, you may expect your neighbours to get questioned as to whether you do garage your car, or its normally parked on your drive.
As far as using sophisticated devices such as motec, again, yes you can lie thats easy. But, its not hard for someone who is an expert with a device to prove what realistically an engine would produce. Also if your talking about changing maps etc you need to be able to do it. If youve just had a major incident you may not be able to
If youve got say a 350bhp map on an engine, but only declared a 300, why have you got a 350bhp map in there!? These are the sort of questions that will be asked.
Dont forget when making comments such as "It would need to be beyond reasonable doubt in order to win a court case, and it simply is not." you need to be very careful. You have already signed a document that states that you have declared ALL material facts (at the time of taking the insurance out). If it can be proven that you havent then you will have invalidated your insurance.
Hence why some items such as replacement ECUs demand such a premium on insurance, they are a bit more unknown than for example a new exhaust.
Dont forget as well that unfortunately people who modify cars do not normally balance what they are doing, this is what scares ins cos. If it was a more controlled professional industry then Im sure things would be better, but its not. Ive been in a brokers when someone has been declaring mods that all made a car go faster, none improved its handling or stopping ability. So due to the fact that the engine would have been noticeably heavier it would have degraded the balance of the car, hence worse handling.
Oh, and there are a lot of ways to check an engine without completely stripping it down. Some are easy, some are not, but things such as mini cameras make looking at some parts of engines a lot easier than people realise.
robski
I was agreeing with you re the torque, its working to our advantage, so smile.
As far as how far they would go, it does depend on circumstances, thats about as specific as I can get Im afraid. Other factors also come into play like has there been a lot of incidents, or only a few (i.e inspectors dont have a lot of work on), and do they have any reason to believe you may have messed with something, have you declared obvious items, is there anything dodgy on the claims databases. PIs are used where suspicion arises. Simple stuff like getting a discount for garaging your car. If its stolen from your drive, you may expect your neighbours to get questioned as to whether you do garage your car, or its normally parked on your drive.
As far as using sophisticated devices such as motec, again, yes you can lie thats easy. But, its not hard for someone who is an expert with a device to prove what realistically an engine would produce. Also if your talking about changing maps etc you need to be able to do it. If youve just had a major incident you may not be able to
If youve got say a 350bhp map on an engine, but only declared a 300, why have you got a 350bhp map in there!? These are the sort of questions that will be asked.
Dont forget when making comments such as "It would need to be beyond reasonable doubt in order to win a court case, and it simply is not." you need to be very careful. You have already signed a document that states that you have declared ALL material facts (at the time of taking the insurance out). If it can be proven that you havent then you will have invalidated your insurance.
Hence why some items such as replacement ECUs demand such a premium on insurance, they are a bit more unknown than for example a new exhaust.
Dont forget as well that unfortunately people who modify cars do not normally balance what they are doing, this is what scares ins cos. If it was a more controlled professional industry then Im sure things would be better, but its not. Ive been in a brokers when someone has been declaring mods that all made a car go faster, none improved its handling or stopping ability. So due to the fact that the engine would have been noticeably heavier it would have degraded the balance of the car, hence worse handling.
Oh, and there are a lot of ways to check an engine without completely stripping it down. Some are easy, some are not, but things such as mini cameras make looking at some parts of engines a lot easier than people realise.
robski
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re torque.Thanks rob, I take all your points, but in the case of my car, even the experts in the industry don't know what is supposed to be inside it. If the internals are uprated by me, there is no change in power whatsoever.
The only way to improve power is to map to compensate for it.
Clearly if you don't get the chance to change the map then I understand you will be stuffed, but if I wanted to , I am sure I could learn how to change my motec map, very quickly in order to limit is output. If this were the situation there simply wouldn't be a high power map in there. There is an argument for all power mods if you dont exploit them, such as exhausts (noise), water injection and fmic (det control), hyrbid turbo (engine efficiency), so in the absence of the map to make use of them, nearly everything can be reasonably explained. It seems to be the key.
Not trying to squirm out of things here, just playing devils advicate.
I am also unsure about other mods such as brakes and handling. Do they not imply that even though safer, you are modifying the car in order to better exploit the performance?
I am sure an insurance company could look at that from whatever angle they liked in order to refuse a payout.
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Adam,
yes your car is a little bit of an exception.
Dont agree 100% with your comment about map.
2 quick examples, most UK imprezas run rich (rumour has it), so if you improve the breathing a little you move more towards the perfect mix, and hence free a little power, no map change.
Look at Stefs recent comments about his FMIC, its now improved with the same map (albeit prodrive). Again the map hasnt changed. What has happened (probably) is that the singals to the ECU have changed, so its adjusted its settings.
This is where its different to the old days where if you changed something you needed to manually set everything up again, now the ECU is doing it for you (within its tolerances).
Re you changing your map. Im still not convinced (unless its a lot easier than I understand). Surely you still need to use a laptop or other device plugged in, I guess you coul drun with this all in all the time, but even so if you had a serious(ish) accident are you telling me the first thing you would do would be to sit in the car with your laptop. Dont you think the other parties (and witnesses) may notice this and thin it a little strange? It would be (surely) trying to pervert the course of justice/fraud?
Brakes etc are an interesting one as you say.
1 they improve safety (unless you braking in heavy traffic as your more likely to be rear ended) but 2, if your looking at this mod(and with the assumption that the manufacturer hasnt vastly underspecced these items) then by default your going to use them, which means your going to be driving harder than the average driver.
From an underwriting point its a very difficult call.
I would simply love to install a decent cage in every car I own/have owned. I cannot see a more safety enhancing device available. My mate who used to ran a MK2 escort will full 40 point cage and seam stitch welded chassis managed to reverse
into a tree at over 100mph (closed road before I get flamed), he walked away seconds later. Every panel from back to front was heavily distorted from the transfer of impact. Now I would love to be able to do that. For a laugh ring your ins co and say you want to fit a full cage to your car. They will assume you are an absolute nutter and if they will even quote, its likely to be looooooads!
robski
yes your car is a little bit of an exception.
Dont agree 100% with your comment about map.
2 quick examples, most UK imprezas run rich (rumour has it), so if you improve the breathing a little you move more towards the perfect mix, and hence free a little power, no map change.
Look at Stefs recent comments about his FMIC, its now improved with the same map (albeit prodrive). Again the map hasnt changed. What has happened (probably) is that the singals to the ECU have changed, so its adjusted its settings.
This is where its different to the old days where if you changed something you needed to manually set everything up again, now the ECU is doing it for you (within its tolerances).
Re you changing your map. Im still not convinced (unless its a lot easier than I understand). Surely you still need to use a laptop or other device plugged in, I guess you coul drun with this all in all the time, but even so if you had a serious(ish) accident are you telling me the first thing you would do would be to sit in the car with your laptop. Dont you think the other parties (and witnesses) may notice this and thin it a little strange? It would be (surely) trying to pervert the course of justice/fraud?
Brakes etc are an interesting one as you say.
1 they improve safety (unless you braking in heavy traffic as your more likely to be rear ended) but 2, if your looking at this mod(and with the assumption that the manufacturer hasnt vastly underspecced these items) then by default your going to use them, which means your going to be driving harder than the average driver.
From an underwriting point its a very difficult call.
I would simply love to install a decent cage in every car I own/have owned. I cannot see a more safety enhancing device available. My mate who used to ran a MK2 escort will full 40 point cage and seam stitch welded chassis managed to reverse
into a tree at over 100mph (closed road before I get flamed), he walked away seconds later. Every panel from back to front was heavily distorted from the transfer of impact. Now I would love to be able to do that. For a laugh ring your ins co and say you want to fit a full cage to your car. They will assume you are an absolute nutter and if they will even quote, its likely to be looooooads!robski
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You seem to be a very clear thinking person.
I would love the cage too. Would be the ultimate rally replica if I could do it. Shame
Your point about the map, is semi right. When running on boost, the standard ecu operates a map which does as you say run rich. Fitting breathing mods takes advantage of this richness which gives the engine a safety margin.
Doing these things only frees up more power because the standard "safe map" is not optimised to the standard breathing, if it was there would be no safety margin which accomodates temp differences and car to car differences.
When running a mapped ecu, you are less likely to run as rich as the map is optimised to the individual set up so as not to run that rich.
Lap top wise, hmmmm. I have had one crash in my life where my car was towed away. I was able to go to my car and spend time removing stereo equipmeny, long before the insurance investigator arrived, I was thinking this kind of situatiopn would give ample opportunity.
Maps are complex, beyond me anyway, but reducing power (albeit not perfectly) can be done just by changing the amount of boost you request from the turbo. Yes it would run rich if it was run, but the power would be lower none the less.
Thanks for your input on this, it has been very helpful, even though it wasnt my original question. I am having trouble continuing as the more I write, the more it seems like I am planning to commit fraud, yet the situation is entirely hypothetical.
I feel like a criminal and I havent even done anything.
I would love the cage too. Would be the ultimate rally replica if I could do it. Shame
Your point about the map, is semi right. When running on boost, the standard ecu operates a map which does as you say run rich. Fitting breathing mods takes advantage of this richness which gives the engine a safety margin.
Doing these things only frees up more power because the standard "safe map" is not optimised to the standard breathing, if it was there would be no safety margin which accomodates temp differences and car to car differences.
When running a mapped ecu, you are less likely to run as rich as the map is optimised to the individual set up so as not to run that rich.
Lap top wise, hmmmm. I have had one crash in my life where my car was towed away. I was able to go to my car and spend time removing stereo equipmeny, long before the insurance investigator arrived, I was thinking this kind of situatiopn would give ample opportunity.
Maps are complex, beyond me anyway, but reducing power (albeit not perfectly) can be done just by changing the amount of boost you request from the turbo. Yes it would run rich if it was run, but the power would be lower none the less.
Thanks for your input on this, it has been very helpful, even though it wasnt my original question. I am having trouble continuing as the more I write, the more it seems like I am planning to commit fraud, yet the situation is entirely hypothetical.
I feel like a criminal and I havent even done anything.
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Adam,
"You seem to be a very clear thinking person.
" ta matey I hope so, Im an ideas person (manager of team of business analysts), so being able to think clearly certainly is a prerequisite
Yep, I guess I simplified the map thing. Even saying that tho, would you tune say a link at 100% and not allow it to ever exceed these parms, or would it be tuned to the max, and only ever retard backwards?
Im just thinking say if you tuned on a hot summer day, would the map be exactly the same in the winter, or would you say get a little more advance allowed on a cold winter night? Im actually interested in this as its heading towards the top of my list of mods.
My comment was referring to a more serious accident where you wouldnt have the ability or time to reverse what you needed to. Obviously I hope this wouldnt happen, but its the most likely time that investigators would become involved.
IMHO its just not worth non declaration of any point on insurance. When you really need it, you do not want saving a little on your premium to cause you too loose it.
What is most normal in these types of situation is that the ins co will be forced to pay the claim(s) to third party(s). They will then take you to court for this money.
I know of people who will pay significant amounts of their income for the rest of their natural life. This Im sure does not justify saving a little premium in their minds.
robski
"You seem to be a very clear thinking person.
" ta matey
I hope so, Im an ideas person (manager of team of business analysts), so being able to think clearly certainly is a prerequisite Yep, I guess I simplified the map thing. Even saying that tho, would you tune say a link at 100% and not allow it to ever exceed these parms, or would it be tuned to the max, and only ever retard backwards?
Im just thinking say if you tuned on a hot summer day, would the map be exactly the same in the winter, or would you say get a little more advance allowed on a cold winter night? Im actually interested in this as its heading towards the top of my list of mods.
My comment was referring to a more serious accident where you wouldnt have the ability or time to reverse what you needed to. Obviously I hope this wouldnt happen, but its the most likely time that investigators would become involved.
IMHO its just not worth non declaration of any point on insurance. When you really need it, you do not want saving a little on your premium to cause you too loose it.
What is most normal in these types of situation is that the ins co will be forced to pay the claim(s) to third party(s). They will then take you to court for this money.
I know of people who will pay significant amounts of their income for the rest of their natural life. This Im sure does not justify saving a little premium in their minds.
robski
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once again you are right, but validity of declaration may depend on the premium loading.
Eg. without my dyno plot, the company wanted £400 per year for an exhaust and flter.
I ahve exposed a loop hole by proving my power was standard to a level that the company is satisfied with, and if I can continue to comply with that then I will.
regarding link mapping, yes there is a safety zone.
Regardless of timing, the fuelling is mapped for the timing that is input, but you can choose if you want to run a little rich in areas, such as if you want pops and bangs on over run.
Too rich and you get bore wash which is bad.
my car was mapped by bob rawle for 97 octane. For added safety against det, I could then choose to run water inj, which would sap power or octane booster which without remapping will add a safety net and nothing more.
you are right though about mapping on a hot summers day. If this is done, then with same map, car will be less prone to det on colder wetter days. just needs some thought that is all.
just remember, the map is only as good as the mapper, which is why no one but Bob Rawle (and R19KET) is allowed to touch my car.
Eg. without my dyno plot, the company wanted £400 per year for an exhaust and flter.
I ahve exposed a loop hole by proving my power was standard to a level that the company is satisfied with, and if I can continue to comply with that then I will.
regarding link mapping, yes there is a safety zone.
Regardless of timing, the fuelling is mapped for the timing that is input, but you can choose if you want to run a little rich in areas, such as if you want pops and bangs on over run.
Too rich and you get bore wash which is bad.
my car was mapped by bob rawle for 97 octane. For added safety against det, I could then choose to run water inj, which would sap power or octane booster which without remapping will add a safety net and nothing more.
you are right though about mapping on a hot summers day. If this is done, then with same map, car will be less prone to det on colder wetter days. just needs some thought that is all.
just remember, the map is only as good as the mapper, which is why no one but Bob Rawle (and R19KET) is allowed to touch my car.
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Adam,
If you adjust the map's boost profile on a motec, it will not affect the fuelling. The map will (very probably) use RPM and ManifoldAbsolutePressure as the "load inputs". If you reduce (maybe using a trim) the mapped boost targets, the ecu will not ask for as much boost and it will use the relevant areas in the map to get appropriate fuel and ignition values. Reducing boost targets will simply reduce the area of the map that is used. Assuming the area of map in use has been mapped correctly there is no reason for the car to start running rich.
I would mostly hazard an educated guess that this logic will also hold for any other remappable ecu that is mapped using boost as one of it's load inputs, mostly.
Bestest Regards,
Moray
If you adjust the map's boost profile on a motec, it will not affect the fuelling. The map will (very probably) use RPM and ManifoldAbsolutePressure as the "load inputs". If you reduce (maybe using a trim) the mapped boost targets, the ecu will not ask for as much boost and it will use the relevant areas in the map to get appropriate fuel and ignition values. Reducing boost targets will simply reduce the area of the map that is used. Assuming the area of map in use has been mapped correctly there is no reason for the car to start running rich.
I would mostly hazard an educated guess that this logic will also hold for any other remappable ecu that is mapped using boost as one of it's load inputs, mostly.
Bestest Regards,
Moray
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excellent moray, so trimming will give you a map that reduces power and keeps fuelling as good as the original was.
Thanks for that
what time you coming down tonight?
Robski,
what I meant was, I would continue to declare unless for example they try to charge me a premium which is disproportionate, when I can get round it with a dyno run.
Eg. my exhaust may well have pushed my bhp over 280, to about 285. That is weather dependent. Redoing on a hot day could yield 270bhp. Both entirely legitimate yet the first would give me a premium rise of over £200. So the type of declaration will be dependent on the loading.
They tried to charge me £200 per year to cover the excess value of my ap brakes
35k car is 1200 to insure 35k car with 2k brakes is 1400?????? no thanks!
As I said before, I told them they are on there and it is noted on my policy but made it clear I would not expect them replaced if the car is nicked.
Thanks for that
what time you coming down tonight?
Robski,
what I meant was, I would continue to declare unless for example they try to charge me a premium which is disproportionate, when I can get round it with a dyno run.
Eg. my exhaust may well have pushed my bhp over 280, to about 285. That is weather dependent. Redoing on a hot day could yield 270bhp. Both entirely legitimate yet the first would give me a premium rise of over £200. So the type of declaration will be dependent on the loading.
They tried to charge me £200 per year to cover the excess value of my ap brakes
35k car is 1200 to insure 35k car with 2k brakes is 1400
?????? no thanks!As I said before, I told them they are on there and it is noted on my policy but made it clear I would not expect them replaced if the car is nicked.
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Adam,
with you now.
Agreed, if they are happy to accept that standard replacement is ok, then I agree often they will do this (but not always)
if they are happy with the dyno run data then thats good for you. I would suggest that some UK spec owners cars that on dyno produce more BHP as standard would be less happy with that approach, but as you say you can use a few things to your advantage when doing the dyno run.
I may ask my Ins co what their approach to using a dyno plot would be. One of the factors that attracts me to the link is the claimed better MPG with more power/torque.
Bargain mod until you consider the increased premium. Now if I could get it proved that I havent increased the peak BHP (flat line from 2500-5000 would be good), maybe they would not charge an increased premium for this!?
What you are virtually attempting to do with this approach is to replicate WRC tuning, although with a different cause to the limitation. Theirs is that they have a flow restriction effectively limiting BHP at higher revs, for road users it would be that you wanted to limit BHP to what the ins cos accept is standard for your car.
robski
with you now.
Agreed, if they are happy to accept that standard replacement is ok, then I agree often they will do this (but not always)
if they are happy with the dyno run data then thats good for you. I would suggest that some UK spec owners cars that on dyno produce more BHP as standard would be less happy with that approach, but as you say you can use a few things to your advantage when doing the dyno run.
I may ask my Ins co what their approach to using a dyno plot would be. One of the factors that attracts me to the link is the claimed better MPG with more power/torque.
Bargain mod until you consider the increased premium. Now if I could get it proved that I havent increased the peak BHP (flat line from 2500-5000 would be good), maybe they would not charge an increased premium for this!?
What you are virtually attempting to do with this approach is to replicate WRC tuning, although with a different cause to the limitation. Theirs is that they have a flow restriction effectively limiting BHP at higher revs, for road users it would be that you wanted to limit BHP to what the ins cos accept is standard for your car.
robski
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