Sam Elassar

stevie

i don't think you can plump a wide band to the ecu. at the end of the day it is not actually the lambda sensor that is improtant. it is the box of electronics that comes with it. the sensor is 350£ from motec and cheaper from abroad. however the box of electronics is worth 1k! that is more expensive than the ecu

the best thing to do is get an ecu and map it with wideband. set the temp table etc, it will take a long time to get it set up. 4-8hours. then you really don;t need to touch, unless you upgrade or comes mot time

sam

john banks

I have a sneaky suspicion the Subaru sensor might be a little more accurate given that when you put in an AFR target (using the MAF) for a given load zone, you tend to get on the lambda what you are expecting and it seems fairly reproducible if the lambda is healthy. But I suppose the only way to know is to use a wideband and I could be arguing in circles, although the MAF targets should be accurate?

The rolling road figures may be more rich because of reduced airflow by some strange mechanism?

[Edited by john banks - 7/24/2002 11:52:32 PM]

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

While the NTK wideband item may be very difficult ot obtain, and expensive, and the motec item etc very expensive, there are DIY versions about, which I have mentioned before.
I have also recently orderd a wideband from FJO ( I ordered from their www.horsepowerfreaks.com dealer )
I already have the L1H1 NTK Sensor ( as fitted to the lean burn honda civic 1.5 )from my DIY attempt
Postage inculded the FJO controller and LED display is working out at about £460. The sensor would bring this to about £600
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
http://www.fjoinc.com/automotive/

It is the cheapest one I have found yet, and I should hopefully have it by friday ( I ordered it on monday ). I am using a DTAFast P8Pro, on another car, and it uses a lamda target map, but the lambda signal for it, is user programmable. ie, you tell it the AFR's for the voltage input, making the use of almost any lambda sensor arrangement, e it narrow or wide, of various voltage inputs.
The AFR LED display, simply tells you the AFR, what more do you need. They also do a datalogging program for the computer, so when connected up, it can map either rpm/AFR or MAP/AFR etc etc.
I tried to purchase direct from FJO, but they do not ship internationally themselves, and their international dealer, would not ship on a credit card order ??????
The Horsepowerfreaks.com do ship on credit card, and were very helpful.

[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 7/24/2002 11:21:11 PM]

R19KET

Well I'm quite looking forward to the day that some of these Gems/wide band lambda tuned cars turn up at a PE RR shoot out, and show up all the Linked/narrow band tuned cars .........

Where ARE all these super tuned cars ?

Mark.

Bob Rawle

Mark, I'm looking forward to that as well. (BTW tight bu**er only 4 bar ?!!)

Sam to answer your question I use all three of wide band, wide range or narrow band depending on the application.

Its a fallacy that you cannot map with the Subaru narrow band, its actually pretty good BUT ... you need to know what the condition of the sensor is that you are using, with all the cars I've seen now I know when a sensor is on the blink, mapping is far more than just looking at the numbers and tapping a keyboard, even a wide band will mislead you if you don't have a "feel" for the car that you are tuning as different setups work best with different afr's.

Sensor is £350 ?? hmm not when I last looked, which one is that price ? The number of wires a sensor has does not signify better or worse, as I said the Bosch sensor for the Subaru is pretty good, the Evo sensor is pants IMHO. (I have done a few of those now)

Sam, you can connect a true wideband directly into a Motec or Pectel, no need for any "boxes".

John, the maf will output up close to the supply afaik, I just rescaled the map load lines so that I ran on row 15 at 1.4 bar boost, gives me the space for the rest. Need to recheck as I've just "adjusted" the turbo compressor wheel again.

Bob

Sam Elassar

hi mark, bob

i am really sorry if you misunderstood what i meant. You guys obviously took my posts personally. I apologise again as I really did not mean it this way, I meant this to be a discussion about the relative merits of the different systems. All I have mentioned is my own experience and some of the other information that I have learnt over the last couple of years.

Link has got a huge market for the subarus and now the ecutek is starting to bite into the link market. The link market in this country was build around two facts IMHO, first is the price and second is the fact is bob is a very professional mapper that has produced good results.

The original post wanted a comparison between these systems and I am the only one here how actually posted comparing the 3 systems to my limited knowledge. I would have expected bob to correct me if I said anything wrong about the various systems.

I did not know you can connect a wide band straight into motec, but I never really looked into it. so thanks for highlighting this. and thanks for confiming what I know about the evo lambda sensor


Gems is very competitively priced, it gets mapped with wide band as standard, so no need to check if the standard lambda sensor is ok or not. Remember it is always cheaper just to wire in lambda link! 65£ compared to 1.5k. and it has got loads more features than link and the ecutek. It is a british company with loads of support and widely used in rallying. What I don’t understand is why not many subarus are using it for their road cars? Bob, you can map anything as you obviously have got the skill and the knowledge for this. You are using motec and link and now ecutek. What have you got against the gems? Have you actually tried using it.


and as for high powered gems car is irrelevant really isn't it. if you can run the same mixture, and igntion and boost at the point of max power you will produce the same power no matter what ecu you are using.

saying that will my evo7 count it is still got standard internals

R19KET

Sam,

I didn't take your comments personally, and I doubt Bob did either.

I think Bob, and I just disagree with you, over how successfull one can be, mapping with the standard narrow band.

Just because your fuel mixture is correct, DOESN'T mean your EGT's are safe. Knowing what EGT's to look for, based on the position of the sensor, comes from comparing temps at different places on the same car, with the same mod's.

For example, you will see up to a 200C drop, through the turbo, depending on boost, rpm, and load. This needs to be taken into account, just like differing AFR's, based on boost, rpm, etc'.

Then you have the effects of EGT on intake temps.

I'm not knocking any of the listed ECU's. They all have their place, based on price, and application. I've used the Link, Motec, and now the Pectel. I'm sure had I have used a Gems, it would also have done a very good job.

Each to their own I guess.

Mark.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

While on the subject of motec and wideband, Is there any way to work the wideband option on the motec without actually purchasing it from them?? ie. using a wideband voltage signal from an external source, for mapping on the lambda target map??

Pavlo

As far as map sensors go, I looked at making one. Common automostive sensors use some low output unit, and integrate a temperature compensated amplifier to scale the output to 0-5v or whatever.

A silicon diaphram 0-100psi sensor is about £8, components to make the amp bit are about £8 (expensive high quality instrumentation amps used in differential mode).

So it would be possible to create a universal MAP sensor, adjustable to suit a wide range of applications. It would take a bit of effort to make it as rugged as it needs to be, probably potting the whole lot into a small platic box would help.

I have also found http://www.fuel-parts.co.uk/ to be a good source of pretty much everything, but no NTK sensor though.

Paul

R19KET

Call me lazy, but I just went out, and bought the 4bar map sensor, calibrated to 0.25%.

Bob, I can get sensors up to circa 400bar. Let me know if this would be high enough, and I'll order one for you

IIRC, Motec charge £500 to activate the wide band software , and even then, it only uses a "wide range" sensor.

Pectel include pretty much everything in the basic price (£1950 +vat) apart from the NTK sensor.

Sam:

Are you using a wide band sensor with the Gems, or just relying on the narrow band, for closed loop. Because the accuracy of your fuelling, will only be as good as the sensor you're using at the time !

Mark.

Sam Elassar

mark

the car is mapped with a wide band NTK sensor but there is not closed loop here. it it does not need it really. there is a temp correction table as well in operation.


saying that, i will be getting a wide band one over the next few weeks. because i just like to monitor things, but that is just me

Bob Rawle

Motec M800 can accept a wide band directly, M48Pro uses a "wide range", Sam you meant mapped with wide range I think, wide range are not so good for losed loop lambda control as they do not switch fast enough and you end up running the car a touch richer than otherwise. BTW I also have nothing against Gems, could well be mapping those soon enough. An ecu is just a means to an end when all said and done.

Both Mark and I have used all the differing sensor types, experience with each allows their respective use, at the end of the day there are, as Mark stated, plenty of other indicators as to how good or bad your fueling is and, taken in to account, allow optimum setup for individual cars. Once you have run a car off a fixed map, monitored the sensor temp over repeated runs and measured sensor output you build get a good "callibration" of sensor output v temperature .... once you have that then its no problem, btw I can "set" a Subaru oem sensor output at 0.6 volts with careful mapping, right in the heart of the "jump" its not as verticaly handicapped as you might think. BTW see my post re solenoid frequency in your other thread.

Sam Elassar

bob
i had the car mapped with the wideband lambda sensor. i did not mention anywhere that i have got closed loop lambda control. steve simspon mapped it with the gems wideband and lambda display box.

i think you should have a look at the gems, you will be impressed especially for the price of the unit!


sam

Trout...

Good grief - an ECU thread that has not turned into a slanging match

Personally I have a Link - not here to say it is the best - however if you are interested in 'tinkering' yourself and what to continually modify your car then it is probably the 'easiest' ECU for the amateur mapper - as Mark will no doubt assure you I am very amateur

So a consideration is that if you want to play yourself the Link is probably the easiest to start with - the others can be learned - but require smartness that I do not have

Oh - and in terms of absolute power - there does not seem to be too much between the ECUs - however that is only one small element of a huge subject.

Trout

Sam Elassar

DT

once you get the gems ecu mapped and get the cold start and warm start etc. sorted, it becomes easier to map than the link!!

you would not believe how nice/easy the software is to work with. i have always tinkered link on my car and also tinkered with it on other poeples cars ( with their permission off course ) the gems is much easier to work with. you can have all the parameters you need in one screen ( 4 windows) and voila'.

Bob Rawle

Sam, bit suprised that function isn't enabled, btw, as mentioned, I have looked at Gems, Link software is pretty much like that these days, everything on one screen, datalog and map and graph real time etc, days of tuning module are gone long ago.

dave, does make a very refreshing change at that.

Bob

Sam Elassar

so have we all agreed that the gems is better than the link and the ecutek then

i think it is. and the more i fiddle with it the more i get impressed. car is very nice and very drivable but still goes like the wind

saying that, i am now used to my newely found 25bhp at the wheels and it is starting to feel slow again does anyone feel the same?


when do you actually say that is enough power?!

R19KET

Sam,

"when do you actually say that is enough power?!"

I'll let you know !!!!!

Mark.

SecretAgentMan

Lads lads - enough power is just a matter of grip and road holding capabilities.

I'll sort U 4 space savers Mark and we'll see if it's enough.

*lmfao*

/J

P.S. Link rulz

Sam Elassar

LOL

but very good point. i always have a grin on my face when i get wheel spin in 3rd gear


sam

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Grin,,, I sh*t me trunks when I get wheelspin in 5th... V8's rule sort of.

Sam Elassar

nah, we are talking about spining all 4 wheel here mate

R19KET

Oh SH*T.......

Mark.