johnfelstead

If IM had any thoughts to PR they WOULD NOT have sent some covert person to the SIDC National day to make note of peoples mods and then invalidate their waranty.

I know what your saying re mods etc, but come on, how in bad taste is that!!!!

T-uk

if you have a non-approved engine performance mod,engine warranty is goosed-fair enough.if for example my decatted car had a leaking strut,I would hope that im would honour the warranty.

as for track days,I do not think this should void the warranty.especially since one of the first track days I did was through my dealer.

pete lewis quote
Subaru design the cars to work within a tolerance that makes them reliable - when someone (willingly and knowing the implications!!) changes those tolerances to the detriment of the reliability of the warranty item then I'm afraid its tough luck ..... we are all supposed to be grown up and we need to accept responsibility for our actions ............... Subaru state the conditions ignore them at your peril - I am sorry you have lost your warranty however

what would you say if your car had a gearbox/diff problem or leaking rear struts and they blamed it on that approved tow bar you fitted,saying you must have over load it and your warranty is void?

scoobycar60

Rant on
Voiding a warranty for doing a track day stinks.......point made about Nurburg Ring is an interesting grey area to say the least...What about putting your car on a rolling road....is this not a form of performance testing and it does put unusual strains on the engine with reduced air flow to the intercooler etc.

I am parting with a huge wedge of money for a Prodrive UK STI on Friday which I will be keeping as standard!

This all begs the question?

What is the point of us buying this type of car that can only really safely be used to a fraction of its potential on a track.

Can someone please confirm having spoken to IM that if I take my totally standard car to a "driving improvment" day on a track I will invalidate my warranty.

If the answer is yes then this is the biggest p*ss take I have ever heard of from a company that advertise my car by showing it moving at speed on a banked track.

If you mod your engine then I totally agree with subaru here if it goes pop tough luck m8 its your choice and not a subaru problem (IMHO).

What worries me is all this could encourage
a) People abandon track days and find their driving limits in their cars on the road with no other choice
b) Force clubs to go "underground" when organising events.False plates no free dicussion forums at events false names false number plates obscured vin numbers removing glass etchings deactivated trackers........do I need to go on.

We really need an answer here...perhaps Prodrive may take this up for us if you do read this board especially as you sell the sort of products that are all about improved car performance.


We need an absolute answer ,take my case/car if you like as a clear cut example.

WE DO NEED TO KNOW!

Rant off

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

A goog piont about hiding your Number plate but remember YOUR TAX DISC

Tony

SimonEvoExtreme

Johnfelstead

It is people like you spreading misinformation that leads to people losing their warranties!

The MSA don't regulate all motorsport in the UK and they certainly don't carry any authority for the orgainsation of motorsport as enshrined in UK law.

Look at their website. They list motorsport that they don't govern!There is no requirement under UK law for a motorsports event to be sanctioned by the MSA. The MSA carries its authority from FIA, not parliament.

Furthermore, although I cannot quote the exact case law (no text books handy), the UK courts have upheld that trackdays are a for of motorsort.

Neil Smalley

If I recall This subject was bought up last year.

IM/Subaru did not respond to the trackday question.

Maybe the SIDC could make an official request for clarification?
(I've posted something saying this on the SIDC forum)

Scooby John/Shark what was the reason why they voided the warranty? was it because of the modifications, was it because of the trackday or was it both?

What are the mods you are/were running?
Please supply more information so we can get some facts, rather than supposition.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 7/18/2002 8:32:32 AM]

kevin stanton

scoobycar60

and how long will that last, more power...... i need more power.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Neil

The reason Shark says that the warranty was voided was "modification" - re-read his posts a couple of pages back. No mention of track days.

Dave T-S

I do see where IM are coming from on this, and I too have some sympathy with them.

I work in the insurance industry (not motor) and there are many people, and some on this BBS, that deliberately do not declare mods and are defrauding their insurer.

Like many things, however, the warranty issue has not been thought out clearly in the way it is being dealt with. The point was made earlier that you could buy a secondhand Impreza where the warranty has been invalidated by the previous owner and the first thing you would know about it if the previous owner *forgot* to tell you is when you make what you think is a valid claim under your (non existent) warranty. Note this is a hypothetical example and I am NOT saying Jon would do this. If IM invalidate a warranty they should then call the service book in to be stamped so subsequent owners are aware.

It is also a valid point that there are some double standards here - at Prodrive Live you can take your own car on track in the lunch hour.......not criticising Prodrive here, but it just makes it a grey area in view of their relationship with IM.

I have no particular axe to grind on this as I shall not be track daying our STi7's so am not looking at it with blinkers on. The reasons for this are not of warranty but because I do not wish to pay £300 per day track day insurance, and I am unhappy with the increased drivetrain/brake stress the car may get on a track day - oh, and the poor driving standards I have witnessed by some other drivers....... - but that's another story.

Neil Smalley

Puff,

Yes but what mods?
The trackday question still needs an answer, I was trying to kill two questions in one thread.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 7/18/2002 9:19:38 AM]

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Neil - point taken but scooby Jon has chosen not to reply so far Speak up please Jon!

I'd run sweepstake on full de-cat & dawes?

carl

Full decat probably not, but I should imagine the Dawes swung it.

CraigCH

What about the PPP?
They change the back box, fit a de-cat center and mod the ECU.
I have an SS Back Box and am about to fit a de-cat center. I have'nt modded the ECU (yet) as I am still in warranty, but will the exaust mods have already invalidated it? I will not mod beyond the level of the PPP as I need reliability in the car and as the PPP is still warrantied that's where I will stop. So if IM say that the PPP is allowed surely there is a level of mods they should accept a dealer or competent tuning company to carry out? I want a bit more performance (mine is an MY00) but must keep reliability but don't want to pay nearly £2000 for the PPP when I can achieve the same results for less than half that.
I think we need more clarification!
Craig.

Dave T-S

Craig
Simple - PPP is Prodrive produced IM sanctioned kit, other suppliers are not.

carl

Dawes allows you to fiddle around with the boost to your heart's content. PPP does not.

ozzy

Puff,

I see your point, but at the end of the day it is not me being fraudulent (although I don't agree anyone has been) - it's the Dealer. It's them who make the claim with IM.

I have always been totally open with both my Dealers when it comes to mods, in fact it was the Dealer who happily de-catted my car recently.

If they decide not to tell IM, then that's there problem and not mine. The Dealer has to be confident that they have detected a fault as the cost of parts comes straight out of their pocket. When I've asked Dealers about mods in the past, they've made it clear that if the mod is in any way responsible for the problem then don't expect any Dealer to make a claim under warranty. I am more than happy to accept that.

Can anyone hear point to where in the warranty book it specifically says ANY mods ????

If it does say ANY, then simply changing your headlight bulbs or fitting some clear indicators would invalidate the warranty

Stefan

[Edited by ozzy - 7/18/2002 9:47:10 AM]

[Edited by ozzy - 7/18/2002 9:51:21 AM]

Brendan Hughes

It's 14 years since I studied consumer law, and I wasn't that interested in it when I did it, but cannot someone start from the laws of misrepresentation, and fit for the purpose sold, and take it from there? If Subaru demonstrate/ launch their cars at a track day, I would say it is misrepresenting to the public that they are suitable for a trackday, and it is implying that Subaru accept trackday use. Similarly the point about Prodrive Live.

Go and ask CAB. Those of you who actually saw the STI7 being launched, and bought the car because of that, and expected to use it on track - I would say you have a strong claim for Subaru misrepresenting the facts in order to get you to sign a contract, which effectively nullifies the contract.

Regarding the modifications issue, it also seems perfectly reasonable that any mod which causes a fault should void the warranty. It also seems reasonable that any mod which didn't should not. Unfortunately it seems that IM have chosen to move from the former to the latter.

However, with the T&C being in writing, I am not sure how much these arguments would hold.

BJH

Neil Smalley

Nobody from IM/Subaru has yet stated that an SIDC/book a track style trackday(as opposed to a timed event) invalidates your warranty. Saying anything other than this is pure speculation and could well end scoobynet, the SIDC etc in hot water.

Jon1T

How can speculating that IM don't honour warranties over trackdays 'ends scoobynet'. Why do you have the disclaimer at the bottom of the board saying that opinions expressed are not the opinions of scobbynet?

Neil Smalley

Speculation is fine, however there is a fine line between speculation and potentially damaging libel.

Scoobynet has faced legal proceedings before based on something someone else has said. The disclaimer is not a license to say what we like, alas. The law is more complex than that.

Do a search for censorship and or libel and you'll get more info(plus loads of people putting in their 2p )

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 7/18/2002 10:21:52 AM]

banshi

MTR Absolutely nothing and having identified modifications they would be within their rights to refuse warranty calims. Though the European Court would probably consider it an invasion of your human rights!
As for impact upon tuning specialists, trackday companies and aftermarket goodies, don't think IM will be too concerned about the longevity of such business.
From a PR angle, they determine the strategy. Someone on high could decide that the big exhaust boy racer image of the Impreza was detrimental to the overal brand image or that they should divert their investment in rallying to showjumping/eventing to give more prominence Isuzu.
How the market is developed and which sectors of it are given prominence is a corporate decision. Similarly, whilst they may not be welcome, are the terms and conditions constraining the extent of their warranty!

SoreHead

I can understand the mod problem. They even have something of an argument for parts not directly surrounding the mod.

If you mod the car for more power you're putting more strain on everything including brakes etc etc so who's to say the boost upgrade and exhaust giving another 50bhp didn't put more strain on the gearbox or brakes? Regardless, everyone knows you can't mod a car and expect to keep the warrantee.

Track days are another story. I'll have a root through my documents for my MY01 and see if there's a mention of them.
An argument for them not affecting warrantee is that the basis is, presumably, the extra strain you're putting components under extra strain. I drive 20 miles to work and then home again and I see people every morning (too busy in the evening) driving the knackers off their cars so it's definitely possible to put you car under similar strain for more systained periods on public roads and some people are mad enough to do it. Does that mean that if someone from Subaru or IM (who are they anyway?) sees you driving your car to death on the road that they can invalidate your warrantee??

Diablo

Still have not had the question answered as to why the original poster's warranty was voided, have we?.

As for the whole (RAC) MSA thing, sorry John but Simon is right.

It used to be that if you are an MSA affiliated club (which I suspect SIDC are) then you need to notify the MSA and obtain either a permit, or exemption from doing so before organising any "event".

If the SIDC are an affiliated club, then they will presumably have had to notify the MSA about the track day. For it to be an exempt event there can have been no timing, etc and definately not competative. This is at odds with an earlier comment about UK case law suggesting that a track day falls under the heading of "motor sport", but then its not for the MSA to tell the Courts what is and what isn't.

If the SIDC is not an affiliated club, then the MSA has nothing to do with it at all.

So, to conclude, if SIDC are MSA affiliated, they would have to obtain exemption from having to obtain a permit to run the trackday as it is not timed and therfore not motorsport as defined by the MSA

If they are not affiliated, then they don't have to obtain said exemption regardless of whether it is not timed or not, but I seriously doubt any circuit in the UK would allow a non MSA affiliated club to run a timed event anyway. But it wasn't timed, so isn't "motorsport" as defined by MSA.

UK law has sod all to do with any such organised event, with the exception that the circuit owners and organisers have a general duty of care under law to take necessary steps to ensure the safety of all participting/spectating/whatever, noise laws are not broken where applicable, etc. This duty is more onerous when money is recieved by the owners/organisers.

Hence helmets, and all the disclaimers drivers/passengers have to sign - which, incidentally are not worth the paper they are written on if money has been paid, but thats a whole other story..LOL...

Simon has told us that the UK Courts have decreed that a Track Day is a form of "Motorsport"

I suspect this is one Court's decision and as such is known as Case Law. That only stands until the decision is challenged and the Court or another Court decides otherwise - and that happens all the time.

At the end of the day, the whole track day issue and whether or not that negates a warranty is down to legal interpretation of the wording on the documentations, whether Subaru launch their cars at circuits or not.

D

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

AND NO-ONE HAS YET SAID THAT THEY HAVE HAD THEIR WARRANTY VOIDED SOLELY BECAUSE OF DRIVING ON TRACK!!



At a guess, without wishing to rock the boat, it is unofficially tolerated.

BarryK

"Unofficially tolerated"?

Where else can the car be put fully through its paces?

Let's say I go to a disused airfield and hurtle around for an hour on it. What has that got to do with IM or anybody else? The car is sold with a rev limiter, so anything it can do up until engine cut out, it's associated parts MUST be able to handle. Otherwise it is not fit for the purpose for which it is sold.

"If you fly this jet aeroplane up to its limits we can't vouch for its parts standing up to it".

Come on. They don't have a choice do they.

kryten

Sorry, but I have to disagree because that's what they have done to me (had you forgotten!).

My warranty claim has been ongoing for almost 13 months now and their refusal centres _purely_ on the fact that the car had been used on track at Bedford and Donington. NOTE that I am one of the people they took to Donington to try and sell me a P1!

Legal action is a definite possibility so I cannot say much, other than it IS true and THEY DO void the warranty based on the fact that .

I have yet to receive an adequate explanation of exactly how the warranty is void, but I will ensure the BBS is kept aware of progress.

Whether they manage it, only time (and the courts) will tell.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Corrected but I had forgotten... ( )



(Prob as you drive a beemer )

Dave T-S

I mentioned Prodrive Live earlier, there's also Ride & Drive (or something like that) that was organised recently by Subaru dealers and Prodrive for prospective STi7 purchasers and involved track driving in IM or Prodrive (I can't remember which) supplied vehicles.

I wonder therefore if I took my STi on track, totally standard, and the engine let go I would have the warranty cover it, but if I had (for example) a full decat I would have the warranty voided and no new engine?

Too many grey areas......

Jerome

The attitude that IM still has surprises me. There are thousands of grey imports already and they must be losing thousands on servicing these alone. Also, do IM think that someone who is looking for a Subaru will not look at other cars also. The whole warranty issue could be enough to make someone choose another make.

I would have thought IM would be trying to encourage grey owners to upgrade to a UK car. With their current attitude, they are encouraging grey owners to replace with another grey. When I tell people that - as a grey owner - I cannot even get a windscreen wiper from a Subaru dealer, they are incredulous. They cannot believe any company could be so petty. Not to mention the business they are turning away. Mitsubishi service greys, why not IM.

Also, some of IM's tactics are extremely underhand. Are IM going to visit Scoob meets next and note down Reg No's of any UK car being driven very hard? I personally think track days are a good thing because it enables people to explore the performance of their car in relative safety. I hope people aren't discouraged from attending them and any UK owners simply use IM's underhand tactics and hide the cars identity. Anyway, many enthusiastic drivers are more than capable of thrashing their car on a daily basis and doing far more damage than the odd track day.

When I come to replace my MY93 WRX, it will not be with a UK car. It will be with another grey or an Evo 6/7.

One last question. Are IM actually in the car business for profit or for some other bizarre reason?

gregh

So if IM void your warrenty either for track day use or mods, what happens if, say, your electric window motor packs up within warranty.

Are you scr*wed? I doubt if any mods would affect something like a window motor.

regards,

greg