WARRANTY WARNING!!!!!!!!!!
17 July 2002, 02:55 PM
#31
So now you've all had the usual IM are a bunch of ****s rant. Plus one or two more rational replys. The simple fact is it's their warranty and they specify the conditions.
You can call and SIDC day creative flower arranging if you like, but most people realise there is little distinction between this and other circuit days. And many drivers will ensure they have trackday cover for the time they spend "improving" their driving.
IM are well aware of the contientious souls who regularly endeavour to enhance their driving skills in this manner. So why pick on Scooby Jon and not add a dozen or more for exclusion?
He is probably the most prominent but certainly not the only owner to have claims approved on a car after heavy circuit miles. So Subaru don't automatically wash their hands of these vehicles. But strangely I don't rember any accolades for that.
Subaru are not alone in employing these promotional techniques. Toyota recently invited people to drive a Yaris around UK circuits, by definition I suppose they wouldn't be expect to raise an eybrow when it collapsed after being ragged round every major motor sport venue in the UK.
Modifications are liable to invalidate your warranty, so in doing so you take a risk. Which may well be the rationale for its withdrawl in this case, IF the small print excludes trackdays then surely its a similar situation.
Another opportunity for a fortune to spent defining track use? e.g does the Ring count? Public road, normal insurance cover but how does participating in a notionally closed session affect a waranty?
You can call and SIDC day creative flower arranging if you like, but most people realise there is little distinction between this and other circuit days. And many drivers will ensure they have trackday cover for the time they spend "improving" their driving.
IM are well aware of the contientious souls who regularly endeavour to enhance their driving skills in this manner. So why pick on Scooby Jon and not add a dozen or more for exclusion?
FFS Stef only got a knock-back on his 3rd gearbox/2nd engine @ 57K miles IIRC!
Subaru are not alone in employing these promotional techniques. Toyota recently invited people to drive a Yaris around UK circuits, by definition I suppose they wouldn't be expect to raise an eybrow when it collapsed after being ragged round every major motor sport venue in the UK.
Modifications are liable to invalidate your warranty, so in doing so you take a risk. Which may well be the rationale for its withdrawl in this case, IF the small print excludes trackdays then surely its a similar situation.
Another opportunity for a fortune to spent defining track use? e.g does the Ring count? Public road, normal insurance cover but how does participating in a notionally closed session affect a waranty?
17 July 2002, 03:04 PM
#33
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Nice thread.
IM don't mind big brakes - they no langer have to worry about those components. I'm sure IM would love every owner in the country to fit big barkes and shocks from a warranty point of view ! (The parts dept may have someting to say as they would never sell any pads/discs etc)
Edited to say - Nice post banshi - I agree.
David
[Edited by Shark - 7/17/2002 3:05:11 PM]
IM don't mind big brakes - they no langer have to worry about those components. I'm sure IM would love every owner in the country to fit big barkes and shocks from a warranty point of view ! (The parts dept may have someting to say as they would never sell any pads/discs etc)
Edited to say - Nice post banshi - I agree.
David
[Edited by Shark - 7/17/2002 3:05:11 PM]
17 July 2002, 03:17 PM
#34
Oh dear, now I'm going to be excommuniated for agreeing with a distributor 
So, based upon a review invalid notifications, it's reasonable to assume the decision had little to do with trackday use.
So, based upon a review invalid notifications, it's reasonable to assume the decision had little to do with trackday use.
17 July 2002, 05:32 PM
#37
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what happens if IM void a warranty for track use. Then that person sells the car with the balance of the UK warranty?
I know if I bought a 1 or 2 year old car that came with a 3 year warranty, I doubt I'd check to see if it's voided or not. I'd imagine most people wouldn't. And can you imagine trying to sell a car where everyone knew the warranty had been voided! It would be worth far less, less than a EU sourced car.
Matt
I know if I bought a 1 or 2 year old car that came with a 3 year warranty, I doubt I'd check to see if it's voided or not. I'd imagine most people wouldn't. And can you imagine trying to sell a car where everyone knew the warranty had been voided! It would be worth far less, less than a EU sourced car.
Matt
17 July 2002, 05:53 PM
#38
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i have voided my warranty on my my01,the guy at the dealer said its because off the full decat + blitz induction but hey thats the risk,if you dont want the risk of voiding the warranty dont do certain mods like full decat,dawes etc.I must admit he was fine upto this point but i think he thinks im just taking the pi$$ now lol 
such is life
i do disagree if they voided it only on the track use
mike
[Edited by mbc - 7/17/2002 5:56:35 PM]
such is lifei do disagree if they voided it only on the track use
mike
[Edited by mbc - 7/17/2002 5:56:35 PM]
17 July 2002, 06:08 PM
#40
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very true carl, but some people i.e 'me' didnt intend on spending as much cash modding as i have, i can remember picking mine up and thinking this is perfect i will never have to spend any money modding it but i have
mike
mike
17 July 2002, 06:35 PM
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Oh dear, now I'm going to be excommuniated for agreeing with a distributor
Can you let me know cost and availabliity of this security upgrade. Cos running the Scoob I can't afford dog food anymore.
Cheers banshi
David
17 July 2002, 06:37 PM
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I'm out of this having an STi V, but is it a bit big brother that they were able to supply your VIN to all - I guess they cross ref to the number plate. The answer may be to change your plate to HAVE A SERVICE. Ironic!
17 July 2002, 07:20 PM
#44
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Sounds to me ..that the only way you can beat them is to change numberplates...( before you arrive!!) Make sure any glass etching etc is covered up and dont talk to anyone unless you know them...
IM have set the rules... either you agree or fight dirty..
IM have set the rules... either you agree or fight dirty..
17 July 2002, 09:00 PM
#45
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I feel sorry for everyone this affects. It vindicates my decision to go European. At least my warrenty is probably worth FADS (F**k all divided by six) anyway, so if I void it who cares
Steve
PS At least my big brakes have kept IM happy.
Steve
PS At least my big brakes have kept IM happy.
17 July 2002, 09:23 PM
#46
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Whats the problem???
The rules are clear - do not race - do not modify!!
Subaru design the cars to work within a tolerance that makes them reliable - when someone (willingly and knowing the implications!!) changes those tolerances to the detriment of the reliability of the warranty item then I'm afraid its tough luck ..... we are all supposed to be grown up and we need to accept responsibility for our actions ............... Subaru state the conditions ignore them at your peril - I am sorry you have lost your warranty however
Pete
The rules are clear - do not race - do not modify!!
Subaru design the cars to work within a tolerance that makes them reliable - when someone (willingly and knowing the implications!!) changes those tolerances to the detriment of the reliability of the warranty item then I'm afraid its tough luck ..... we are all supposed to be grown up and we need to accept responsibility for our actions ............... Subaru state the conditions ignore them at your peril - I am sorry you have lost your warranty however
Pete
17 July 2002, 10:15 PM
#48
Sympathy Mr Lewis! Are you mellowing in your old age
Surely it’s a little like speeding. You may not agree with the rules but the consequences are well known. A simple case of commit the crime do the time.
Ok so if we assume it’s not a trackday issue, its tantamount to a copper hiding in the bushes with a radargun. Why pick upon a single car/driver with no history of claims?
Surely it’s a little like speeding. You may not agree with the rules but the consequences are well known. A simple case of commit the crime do the time.
Ok so if we assume it’s not a trackday issue, its tantamount to a copper hiding in the bushes with a radargun. Why pick upon a single car/driver with no history of claims?
17 July 2002, 10:21 PM
#49
Ok so we do a mini meet to change plates, don't talk to stangers and don a disguise at trackdays (any excuse to get the wife to dress up.)
How do we know the enemy has not already infiltrated our ranks. Puff may at this very monent be compiling a dossier on all of us
How do we know the enemy has not already infiltrated our ranks. Puff may at this very monent be compiling a dossier on all of us
17 July 2002, 10:45 PM
#50
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While I think that it is both unlucky and unfair to be singled out, I have read the above posts with a sense of disbelief.
Firstly, the whole issue of modification. I really don't know how anybody can expect to buy a product, modify it and still expect the manufacturer to honour the warranty. Let me give you an example. If I "clocked" my CPU on my computer (modified it) and it blew up, would you feel I was hard done by when Dell refused to pay up? Of course you wouldn't, so why do you think it is any different with cars. It is made difficult by dealers who lead customers to believe that they will "hide" the mods, but this is fraud.
EU law has changed so that a manufacturer cannot force you to use their spares, but the spares you use must be of the same quality and functionality. A freer flowing exhaust, for instance, does not have the same functionality as the OEM exhaust being changed.
Next is the issue of trackdays. Trackdays are a form of motorsport even if they aren't a competitive one. I don't know of any mainstream manufacturer that would cover you for trackdays. No court in the land would support you in a warranty claim under these circumstances and , BTW, there have been attempted court cases on this subject. The courts would look at the intent of the manufacturer, which is clearly not to cover a car that is used on a track.
As for Subaru being hypocrites because they launch their cars using trackdays, look at it another way. The general public would be up in arms if they showed off the abilities of these cars on the public highways. It is the most responsible way of launching such a car.When you see TV ads showing a car doing some form of stunt, do you take this as an invitation to do those stunts on the road?
I am sorry if all the above seems harsh, but it is the facts. I feel sorry for those who don't know what is going on and inadvertantly void their warranties. I think that forums like this don't look at this issue enough and that tuners and trackday organisers also hv=ave a responsibilty to their customers to inform.
Firstly, the whole issue of modification. I really don't know how anybody can expect to buy a product, modify it and still expect the manufacturer to honour the warranty. Let me give you an example. If I "clocked" my CPU on my computer (modified it) and it blew up, would you feel I was hard done by when Dell refused to pay up? Of course you wouldn't, so why do you think it is any different with cars. It is made difficult by dealers who lead customers to believe that they will "hide" the mods, but this is fraud.
EU law has changed so that a manufacturer cannot force you to use their spares, but the spares you use must be of the same quality and functionality. A freer flowing exhaust, for instance, does not have the same functionality as the OEM exhaust being changed.
Next is the issue of trackdays. Trackdays are a form of motorsport even if they aren't a competitive one. I don't know of any mainstream manufacturer that would cover you for trackdays. No court in the land would support you in a warranty claim under these circumstances and , BTW, there have been attempted court cases on this subject. The courts would look at the intent of the manufacturer, which is clearly not to cover a car that is used on a track.
As for Subaru being hypocrites because they launch their cars using trackdays, look at it another way. The general public would be up in arms if they showed off the abilities of these cars on the public highways. It is the most responsible way of launching such a car.When you see TV ads showing a car doing some form of stunt, do you take this as an invitation to do those stunts on the road?
I am sorry if all the above seems harsh, but it is the facts. I feel sorry for those who don't know what is going on and inadvertantly void their warranties. I think that forums like this don't look at this issue enough and that tuners and trackday organisers also hv=ave a responsibilty to their customers to inform.
17 July 2002, 10:58 PM
#51
Trackdays are a form of motorsport even if they aren't a competitive one
All motorsport events in the UK have to be sanctioned by the MSA by law. Trackdays are not sanctioned by the MSA, they have no competitive component, they are not timed. They are NOT motorsport.
The waranty does not preclude driving your car on track on a track day. Mods do invalidate your waranty.
IF IM want to preclude track days they need to re-write their waranty policy documentation.
17 July 2002, 11:04 PM
#52
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Simon I understand where you are coming from but taking you CPU reference. If it was clocked and the monitor blew up then surely there is no fraud and the monitor should be replaced as clocking the cpu had not effect on the monitor. I can understand if you change components and it was found that the replacement part cause the failure then tough luck but just to invalidate a whole warranty seems a bit harsh. This could serious damage quite a few specialists/tuners businesses of selling to UK owners. I guess its upto IM though its their warranty it could seriously affect sales though esp. with euro imports being so much cheaper. Just glad I brought a grey and dont have a warranty to worry about.
cheers
ChrisP
cheers
ChrisP
17 July 2002, 11:20 PM
#53
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Banshi,
What would stop an IM representative wandering around a large car park, such as at Donnington, noting the cars reg number or on the later cars the Vin number from the glass, clocking to see who has a modified exhaust for example, and bingo, your on the no warranty list!! due to modifying your car.
That would do wonders for the sale of visible aftermarket bolt on goodies such as brakes and exhausts. They could even photograph the offending vehicle on the pretext that they thought it looked nice.
I cannot see it doing the SIDC membership a great deal of good either, as the big advantage of being a member is access to cheap trackdays.
Something that owners of cars less than 3 years old may now well consider a risk not worth taking.
It would also alienate the vast majority of Impreza Turbo owners from wanting to be associated with such a company.
The disturbing aspect of all of this, is the very people who due to their enthusiasm for the brand, specifically the Impreza, and the positive impact that has had on the entire Subaru range, are being targeted.
If it had not been for many of these types of meets, and I include the sort of runs I have organised, mainly frequented by 'modified; Imprezas, then a large number of the non Subaru owning population would never notice the Subarus on the road.
But when they see LARGE gatherings of immaculately turned out Imprezas etc then they definately give admiring glances.
One chap came up to me at Birch services asking for my opinion because he was thinking of buying one. His sons eyes were out on stalks at the sight, AND THE SOUND (non std exhausts) of all the Subarus.
Would that potential customer have been as impressed with a car park full of bog standard Mondeos (no disrespect to Mondeo owners, I own a Sierra as well, by the way). I don't think so.
Lots of people don't watch rallying, but they all drive on public roads, and the more popularity a model achieves, and obviously sales, is down to public interest/enthusiasm.
This is generated by the people who use the cars, and enthuse to anybody and everybody who will listen about how good the car is.
I know I do, to the point of obsession.
I feel that IM although perfectly within their rights, perhaps should have taken a more subtle approach to the issue of warranties.
Perhaps notifying dealers to inform customers that NO mods will be tolerated, and that they must put their cars back to std if they wish to recieve dealer back up.
I liked the bit about the wife dressing up, you really meant you dressing up as the wife Banshi, but you will keep messing up the clutch control wearing high heels, if you are anything like me.
Cheers MTR
What would stop an IM representative wandering around a large car park, such as at Donnington, noting the cars reg number or on the later cars the Vin number from the glass, clocking to see who has a modified exhaust for example, and bingo, your on the no warranty list!! due to modifying your car.
That would do wonders for the sale of visible aftermarket bolt on goodies such as brakes and exhausts. They could even photograph the offending vehicle on the pretext that they thought it looked nice.
I cannot see it doing the SIDC membership a great deal of good either, as the big advantage of being a member is access to cheap trackdays.
Something that owners of cars less than 3 years old may now well consider a risk not worth taking.
It would also alienate the vast majority of Impreza Turbo owners from wanting to be associated with such a company.
The disturbing aspect of all of this, is the very people who due to their enthusiasm for the brand, specifically the Impreza, and the positive impact that has had on the entire Subaru range, are being targeted.
If it had not been for many of these types of meets, and I include the sort of runs I have organised, mainly frequented by 'modified; Imprezas, then a large number of the non Subaru owning population would never notice the Subarus on the road.
But when they see LARGE gatherings of immaculately turned out Imprezas etc then they definately give admiring glances.
One chap came up to me at Birch services asking for my opinion because he was thinking of buying one. His sons eyes were out on stalks at the sight, AND THE SOUND (non std exhausts) of all the Subarus.
Would that potential customer have been as impressed with a car park full of bog standard Mondeos (no disrespect to Mondeo owners, I own a Sierra as well, by the way). I don't think so.
Lots of people don't watch rallying, but they all drive on public roads, and the more popularity a model achieves, and obviously sales, is down to public interest/enthusiasm.
This is generated by the people who use the cars, and enthuse to anybody and everybody who will listen about how good the car is.
I know I do, to the point of obsession.
I feel that IM although perfectly within their rights, perhaps should have taken a more subtle approach to the issue of warranties.
Perhaps notifying dealers to inform customers that NO mods will be tolerated, and that they must put their cars back to std if they wish to recieve dealer back up.
I liked the bit about the wife dressing up, you really meant you dressing up as the wife Banshi, but you will keep messing up the clutch control wearing high heels, if you are anything like me.
Cheers MTR
17 July 2002, 11:41 PM
#55
After thinking about this and the fact they would NOT support probably the largest meeting of Subaru enthusiats in the UK this year, then actually attending said event covert.
IM can
Get the Vin # off this then
Oh, hang on, you didnt want us in the UK to have proper Impreza's unless you took all the good bits off and increased the price by 1/3!
IM, masters of PR, NOT! *shakes head*
[Edited by johnfelstead - 7/17/2002 11:43:52 PM]
IM can
Get the Vin # off this then
Oh, hang on, you didnt want us in the UK to have proper Impreza's unless you took all the good bits off and increased the price by 1/3!IM, masters of PR, NOT! *shakes head*
[Edited by johnfelstead - 7/17/2002 11:43:52 PM]
17 July 2002, 11:49 PM
#56
Scooby Regular
LOL John,
So you're not bitter then
Simon,
If you upgraded your hard disk or RAM in said Dell computer and the monitor blew up, would you expect the warranty to still be honoured??? I think so.
Your overclocking example is like increasing your boost, then the engine blews up. I wouldn't expect IM to cover that, but if my wheel bearing went, I'd expect that to get covered.
If my Dealer was happy to overlook my mods when they have no bearing on a warranty claim, then fine. I'll loose no sleep whatsoever. Personally, I've been unimpressed with IM's whole attitude and customer service over the years, so as John says they can go stick their warranty where the sun don't shine
Stefan
[Edited by ozzy - 7/17/2002 11:53:41 PM]
So you're not bitter then
Simon,
If you upgraded your hard disk or RAM in said Dell computer and the monitor blew up, would you expect the warranty to still be honoured??? I think so.
Your overclocking example is like increasing your boost, then the engine blews up. I wouldn't expect IM to cover that, but if my wheel bearing went, I'd expect that to get covered.
If my Dealer was happy to overlook my mods when they have no bearing on a warranty claim, then fine. I'll loose no sleep whatsoever. Personally, I've been unimpressed with IM's whole attitude and customer service over the years, so as John says they can go stick their warranty where the sun don't shine
Stefan
[Edited by ozzy - 7/17/2002 11:53:41 PM]
17 July 2002, 11:52 PM
#57
I think that what has really come out of this thread is that IM have a very reasonable attitude to their warranty (in the spirit of the law), in as much as minor mods, such as a BB or brakes, styling, suspension etc are deemed "acceptable" but further engine mods, such as total de-cat, Link etc are OTT
There has been no evidence shown that actually being on track with your scoob has invalidated a warranty, rather that the engine mods that enable you to go faster have caused it.
I think that we are all aware that IM show an interest in this board, even if unofficially (fools not to) and bearing in mind the published track antics of various members, it is nonetheless surprising that no-one has had their warranty voided.
Therefore one can assume that IM are taking a reasonable attitude, but there is (unfortunately maybe for those that cross it) an unpublished/unwritten line that once crossed, will invalidate your warranty.
Not being a brown-nose as PTMW! is now out of warranty, but just putting the facts forward.
There has been no evidence shown that actually being on track with your scoob has invalidated a warranty, rather that the engine mods that enable you to go faster have caused it.
I think that we are all aware that IM show an interest in this board, even if unofficially (fools not to) and bearing in mind the published track antics of various members, it is nonetheless surprising that no-one has had their warranty voided.
Therefore one can assume that IM are taking a reasonable attitude, but there is (unfortunately maybe for those that cross it) an unpublished/unwritten line that once crossed, will invalidate your warranty.
Not being a brown-nose as PTMW! is now out of warranty, but just putting the facts forward.
17 July 2002, 11:56 PM
#58
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Puff,
Do you think it's IM that overlook the mods or the simple fact that the Dealer doesn't make a point of these when making claims?
As I mentioned earlier, my O2 sensor was replaced under warranty, but I can't imagine IM had any idea that my car wasn't "standard".
Stefan
Do you think it's IM that overlook the mods or the simple fact that the Dealer doesn't make a point of these when making claims?
As I mentioned earlier, my O2 sensor was replaced under warranty, but I can't imagine IM had any idea that my car wasn't "standard".
Stefan
18 July 2002, 12:08 AM
#59
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This thread is full of hypocricy, and I have some sympathy for IM (if not much).
The warranty is for standard cars. I'm not sure I have ever seen a 100% standard car at a track day.
Fraudulent warranty claims cost everyone else money.
There's a good debate in Drivetrain at the moment - get your car tweaked with an ECU-Tek re-map. Goes like a PPP upgrade, but much cheaper but almost impossible to detect if it goes pop.
Double standards or what?
Futhermore, I have a hybrid TD04L turbo which is only detectable from stock if you take the thing apart. Stealth mod or potential attempt to rip-off IM?
Finally, this whole warranty thing. IM would not give a three-years warranty if they thought for one moment that our cars were going to break down in that period. Viewed in that context, the warranty is actually worthless anyway.
Fuel to the fire
Cheers, guys.
Richard.
[Edited by Hoppy - 7/18/2002 12:09:51 AM]
The warranty is for standard cars. I'm not sure I have ever seen a 100% standard car at a track day.
Fraudulent warranty claims cost everyone else money.
There's a good debate in Drivetrain at the moment - get your car tweaked with an ECU-Tek re-map. Goes like a PPP upgrade, but much cheaper but almost impossible to detect if it goes pop.
Double standards or what?
Futhermore, I have a hybrid TD04L turbo which is only detectable from stock if you take the thing apart. Stealth mod or potential attempt to rip-off IM?
Finally, this whole warranty thing. IM would not give a three-years warranty if they thought for one moment that our cars were going to break down in that period. Viewed in that context, the warranty is actually worthless anyway.
Fuel to the fire
Cheers, guys.
Richard.
[Edited by Hoppy - 7/18/2002 12:09:51 AM]
18 July 2002, 12:35 AM
#60
Ozzy
[Leaving Hoppy's thread alone as too pi$$ed ]
You have written (here) that your car is un-standard but yet you have made a claim that has been honoured. In theory, if not fact, that is fraud & IM (or their underwriters/warrantors) could re-coup the cost of that repair from you for that reason alone.
Likewise, anyone else here who has made any modification (UK warrantied cars), could potentially be at risk, if they were to make a claim.
But I think that IM are not interested in taking steps against people for things that are only arguably leading to problems, when it is their rights legally so to do. It is not worth the bad PR or effort/cost to take action. They are only interested in people that severely run the risk of ******** engines/gear-boxes/drivetrains through major or unbalanced mods & even then its the engine blow-ups that will probably be the focus as the rest of the car is pretty strong.
Just my opinion but if you put yourself in their shoes, how would you deal equably with the situation, whilst still maintaining customers, but not running at a loss? They are a business not a charity & I'm sure that most people here if their living depended on it would agree with their position.
[Edited by Puff The Magic Wagon! - 7/18/2002 12:36:53 AM]
[Leaving Hoppy's thread alone as too pi$$ed
]You have written (here) that your car is un-standard but yet you have made a claim that has been honoured. In theory, if not fact, that is fraud & IM (or their underwriters/warrantors) could re-coup the cost of that repair from you for that reason alone.
Likewise, anyone else here who has made any modification (UK warrantied cars), could potentially be at risk, if they were to make a claim.
But I think that IM are not interested in taking steps against people for things that are only arguably leading to problems, when it is their rights legally so to do. It is not worth the bad PR or effort/cost to take action. They are only interested in people that severely run the risk of ******** engines/gear-boxes/drivetrains through major or unbalanced mods & even then its the engine blow-ups that will probably be the focus as the rest of the car is pretty strong.
Just my opinion but if you put yourself in their shoes, how would you deal equably with the situation, whilst still maintaining customers, but not running at a loss? They are a business not a charity & I'm sure that most people here if their living depended on it would agree with their position.
[Edited by Puff The Magic Wagon! - 7/18/2002 12:36:53 AM]