Anders

Good thread

22B engine is closed deck, God knows I have seen the inside of mine enough times

Some UK tuners have ***** of steel: "I know your car has only lasted 600 miles since our chip but its an oil supply problem, nothing to do with us"! Well that was a relief to know!

Nicki Grist who I chat with, enjoyed being able to lend AutoSportif kudos......Dr Theodore Soutsos whose 22b engine blew or the other blown 22B engine owner (who received Theodores 22B engine) might say otherwise!

My car has over 370 ftlbs of torque on a bench dyno running a link via BRD. I expect it will generate more when on the road as it now has a BRD hybrid turbo and a BRD down pipe

Note nothing is 100% safe in the world of tuning, when I went to Power Engineering my car had done 29,000 miles faultlessly!

The fact that it only lasted 600 miles after their chip is a coincidence and David Power assured me that the problem lies with the oil supply to the Impreza engine!

Hoppy

Thanks Ant.

I took "link via BRD" to mean "Link ECU mapped by Bob Rawle Developments." Just guessing!

Richard.

WREXY

I'm with Sam on the piston slap. My Ford V8 had bigger clearances with the Ross forged racing pistons and there was a great deal of piston slap. Easily heard. The problem is that you've got piston slap when the engine is cold & hot, as forgies don't expand with heat. You could try hypereutectic pistons as they are stronger than standard items, but they run hot and hold the heat and take ages to cool down, that is if they cool down at all with the engine operating. They're good for atmospheric engines but probably not for turbo's.

Anthony, I'm not yery good at explaining but will try with piston slap. Simply it is the piston has a certain amount of clearance between itself and the cylinder wall. Sometimes this clearance can be excessive and the piston has room to move in the bore sideways and hits the cylinder wall. If the clearance is excessive enough you can hear it.
Flame suit on.

WREXY.

[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 10 June 2001).]

AnthonyJ

Blimey! That sounds terrible! Surely that can't do anything for the lifespan of the engine?!

WREXY

It doesn't mean your engine will blow, as the engine builder will try to go for a safe clearance. But it will not last as long. You would not be able to know the life expectancy. But anything that is not standard will have a shorter life span. That's why I said in an earlier post on this thread, be prepared for alot of maintenance, time and money when going this way.

Between 5 and 15 years ago when I had the V8, I went all out. Cost me alot and was told it would, but I went ahead. If the car hadn't been written off after 12 years of ownership, I probably still would have been spending on it. It was my very expensive hobby, but I didn't care as I could afford it. After the write off, I said enough as it never ends. Since then I have saved tons of money. But if I went back in time I'd do it all again as it is fun and is a fantastic feeling with all that power under the foot.

WREXY.

Sam Elassar

wrexy is right about the slap. that is way you need to plan you goals very carefully with an experienced engine builder. i thought about this all before then i decided that i don't trust any on the engine buildlers around my part of he country. and now way i was willing to make my daily ( only car ) a geaneu pig. maybe once adam finishs his engine i will his engine builder if his car turns out ok .

i even had thoughts of using the 2.2l legacy block and headers with a twin turbo. but then you end up with a legacy wouldnot you

does anyone actually know how much abuse can the oem pistons with stand ? the couple of engine i have seen blown had the rods in two flying throught the block. but the pistons looked OK. just another though.

anders

what happend to your engine the second time round ? did not have cossie pistons and arrow rods kind of thing?

also did Thoedors 22b blew up after it had the work done to it at autosportif ?

your comments are highly appreciated.

WREXY

Fellas,

One more thing from experience, most engines live or die from the machine work. If the machine work is not done properly, the engine won't last because the clearances will be out. So a good respected and reliable machine shop would be required. Also a good engine builder will thoroughly be able to check if the machining of components has been done right before putting the engine together. My items had been sent out a few times after my engine builder found anomalies. Machining is one of the most important things in engine reliability.

WREXY.

[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 10 June 2001).]

R19KET

Wrexy,

I agree with a lot of your comments, but, I'm confused with the "forged pistons don't expand" comment.

I was under the impression that the only reason forged pistons need to run bigger clearances, was because they DO EXPAND.

The other reason forged racing pistons tend to be more "slappy", is because they often have a shorter skirt for reduced friction.

Mark.

WREXY

Doh,

I better get me coat. Mark, I think I'm getting old. Me memmory is starting to go on me. You are correct, I mixed them up, forgies do expand and the hypereutectic don't. That's why the advantage, apart from heat, of having the hypereutectic pistons is you save the bores because there is no piston slap when cold cause you don't need bigger clearances plus they are strong. I was always around engines being built, including my ones and I always used to ask questions and knew this, but mixed it up. It's been a good 5 years since I've spoken about or been around an engine being built.

Thats why we have people like you, the experts on the bbs, to correct us learners.

Cheers,
WREXY.

R19KET

"Expert"......I WISH........just learning, like everyone else.

Unless we are given the "exact" reasons why Theo's engine let go, let's not start slating another tuner. I also know that Theo's car wasn't mapped by Autosportif, so who knows what actually happened.

That aside, I doubt that there is an experienced engine builder alive, that hasn't had an engine let go at one time or another. Especially when you are breaking new ground.

Personally, I think there are too many "cowboys", and "bolt on merchants" supplying the Subaru, and other communities.

I've had "so called experts" tell me they can change the main, and big end bearings without taking the engine out, say it's ok to just replace a knackered piston with a second hand one, without even checking/honing the bore, sling any old oil in, on an oil change, because they ran out of their usual brand, start to grind material from a brake caliper, because it didn't fit, and the manufacturer "must had made it wrong"....until the fitting instructions were pointed out !!!!! the list goes on, and on......

I'm looking forward to the day, when we get a "real expert" offering to service the community, someone with some "integrity".

Names witheld for legal reasons, but the guilty know who they are.......

Mark.

firefox

Wheres the fun in not stating company names

One thing that does puzzle me..

With so many memebers.. some must be experienced tuners.. and know engines (admittedly not subarus specificy)

No one has ever analysed cams, timing, the heads..

Yes.. getting a closed deck 2.2 block.. with stell billet crank, uprated rods and pistons will be fine.

But what about compression ratio.. stroke.. valve size.. lift.. duration... inlet manifold design..header design...

Yes the stock IC is effecient...within a certain range... One main advantage of the front IC is the flow...

J.

WREXY

I totally agree with you Mark. A good engine builder will build a good engine for himself. It's like me for e.g. I will never let anyone else wash my car. There is no way they will be as thorough and as fussy as I am. Because I can clean well I'll do it myself. If I could build an engine for myself I'd build it because if it's for me I will build it properly checking everything over a thousand times, I would be paranoid and fussy making sure everything is clean before putting together and that clearances and every bolt is torqued to spec and many more things.

Now a workshop having numerous amounts of work will just not be as careful, they haven't got the time and will take shortcuts. For e.g. the clearance isn't exact it's a little out, don't worry about it she'll be right. But for himself he'd rectify it. The difference may be only a few horses, or longetivity maybe slightly shorter, but it all counts in the end.

I can't say they're all like this but the ones I've seen are, as, although the owner may be careful, his worker who is now building the engines because the boss is talking and booking customers, isn't.

The best time to get an engine built is when a good engine builder first opens a shop, as he won't have much on and will build it himself, properly, cause he wants to get the good name. Once they start getting busy and the apprentices take over or the head mechanic starts to build engines, it's all over, as they don't care, cause they're on a wage, it's not their business. There is exceptions I know, but this is what usually happens. Not only performance shops, the lot, panel beaters, suspension shops,etc.

WREXY.

[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 10 June 2001).]

Sam Elassar

hi mark
i completely agree with you on that one. however i hope that my comments did not come across as i was slating autosportif. they are obviously one of the very few companies around that actually know what they are doing. all i was asking for is reasons for what happened from the people that knew the car.

there is a strange attitude on this BBS sometimes, people tend to be really quite when disaster strikes. if we find out why 3-4 22b even more stis blew up on this BBS. maybe we can take precautions in the tuning pathway. how else are going to learn and benefit from this great tool called the internet ?

so far this has been a great thread learning about all the different options available to make our car go faster, lets find out what should we avoid. i don't want to settle to this " they all have an oil feed problem to NO 3 sir, sorry" kind of attitude.

Adam M

Sam, asking my advice would be a dangerous move.

I haven't ever built an engine. I have just about picked up a conrod. Have seena few blocks.

As discussed above I dont like to get my hands dirty so in the case of my engine, am going to allow experts to sort out tolerances and the like, But as yet I have no idea who to go to.

I am choosing which components, in terms of block, and rods, and maybe make of pistons, heads etc, but when talking compression ratio, I will ask for a number and let them choose how to get it interms of head gaskets and piston size etc. Will discuss the other stuff (clearnaces, squish) with them and choose accordingly on the basis of my friends and the companies advice.

R19KET

Well, in the mean time, we'll just have to get on with it, and put our trust in the few tuners that we feel we can trust.

J, you know most of the companies I'm talking about, and a few more.....YOU put them up then

A few people are going to be trying various ideas over the next few months, some will work better than others, some may be a complete disaster

At least these people are prepared to give it a go. It won't be long before we have some pretty impressive cars out there, and prove just how inept some of the "experts" really are.

It's public record that some of the higher profile Subaru tuners feel that our cars are too fragile to produce very much over stock power. Some feel the STi's are already at their max'.

Then you've got the likes of Bob Rawle, pushing 350bhp, and plenty of others running close to that with no problems.

Just goes to show what a decent ecu mapper can do.......

So far I know of two Subaru "tuners" that have decided to give up on our cars, because of poor results/bad publicity......I say good riddance.

Mark.

AnthonyJ

Adam,

That still puts you light years ahead of my position! I don't even know what some of those things mean - I just want to know who I need to talk to (both on the BBS and professionally) who can come up with a plan for me...

It sounds like the market isn't ready for people like me who have some money and a desire to accelerate faster (!) but who don't know enough to make any informed decisions about how.

Are the Subaru mechanics really that sensitive? It always struck me that Subaru cars in general are always very reliable which always made me assume that they were engineered to higher tolerances than other cars (like Fords - although I suppose most of the important bits of a cossie aren't directly Ford!). I thought the boxer engine layout was also supposed to be stronger than an inline four as well (although I can see why material can make a difference)...

Adam M

the advantage of any flat/boxer engine, is the fact that the engine is very short. This means that when mounted in the normal engine mounting position, its centre of mass is very low down, which aids handling dramatically.

The boxer engine is also possibly the best layout for vibration dampening and smoothness.

Newtons third law states that for every action there is an equal an opposit reaction acting on a different body, which means that when the piston is thrown down, the block is thrown up with an equal force (but not equal acceleration as their masses are different). The overall result of this is that the engine vibrates on its mountings as it fires.

Since the flat four has pistons facing in directly opposing directions, the average vibrational moment over a complete engine cycle is zero.

In line fours and v configuration engines try to emmulate this using balancer shafts, which are just spinning eccentric weights.

The scoob engine is aluminium which does have the drawbacks of strength etc. but by using steel internals and a closed deck block, we can address this weakness.

WREXY

Anthony,

Maybe you should contact Tony Rigoli Performance and speak to Tony on +617 33499511. Maybe they can build you one. It won't have to be as radical as their beast but something more reliable. They'll have answers. But then again it would be good if the big engine building kicked off in the UK for Scooby's cause it's got to start sometime. Maybe the engine builders can have a chat to Rigoli. Nothing wrong with asking for advice. My friend in Oz who builds engines still rings around for advice from other builders who have had more experience with a particular engine than he has, while others ring him. And they are willing to give advice most of the time and he always gives advice. Nothing to lose.

WREXY.

R19KET

Wrexy,

It's amazing just how much info is available, you just have to look for it, or ask.

Most of the UK engine builders I've spoken to are of the oppinion that "an engine is an engine", and with their "FORD" engine building experience, the Subaru engine will present no problems.......

Most of us have the intelligence to ask when we don't know the answers (even Adam It's all very well to build an engine to within tollerance, but like J says, what about the finer details.

Mark.