andy97

iTrader: (1)

Snazzy looking car, I think its front end will compromise range, a bit like the audi and mercs.

There is so much more to Tesla which other manufacturers aren't doing. The obvious major advantage is OTA performance and functional upgrades. Considerably less visits to the service centre for small item jobs. We were told bring the car back maybe in its 3rd year for a brake fluid change.- thats it.

Legacy makers wont want that, they need to fleece the customer in a regular basis

BMWhere?

Exactly! The amount of energy required to drive increases disproportionately with the weight. The heavier a vehicle gets, the more and more energy you need to put in to make it move - true for any vehicle, ICE or BEV! So the bigger your BEV is, the heavier it is, so you need more batteries for the same range, which adds more weight which in turn needs even more batteries. You essentially have to add batteries to compensate for the extra batteries that you added because you built a bigger car!

The whole balance of how environmentally friendly a BEV is, is directly related to the number of batteries fitted. More batteries equals more CO2 needed to produce and recycle the vehicle and more environmental damage mining the metals needed for the batteries and creating/disposing on the chemicals used in them. Also because there are less batteries to charge, the CO2 figures from recharging are also less than for larger BEVs

So, for small lightweight BEVs, using few batteries, the balance of CO2 and other environmental damage is significantly better than for larger BEVs. For example, a BEV Smart can be CO2 neutral compared to a ICE Smart within 2 years. Given a battery life of 7 years, that gives 5 years of use where CO2 will be reduced - A significant CO2 saving with minimal additional environmental damage. A Tesla model S on the other hand, requires at least 5 years of use to become CO2 neutral compared to a similar sized ICE vehicle, giving only 2 years in which to become CO2 positive, however there is also more significant additional environmental damage manufacturing and recycling the batteries.

So, yes, the negative impact of a small BEV is small enough to say they are a significant improvement over a similar sized ICE. The Tesla model S on the other hand, there is no significant environmental gains compared to the similar sized ICE, therefore you are only shifting the environment problem rather than solving it. In fact, you'd be better off getting an ICE Smart than driving a big heavy Tesla!

This is not a new argument from me, I've always said small EV are a good thing, its the big ones that don't add up! For some reason, you continue to deny the reality of the environmental damage caused by battery production & recylcling. It's like the stupid people who decided increasing the bio ethernol component in petrol would be great for the environment - sure the fuel is better, but the subsequent rainforest destruction to grow the bio-fuels was not so clever! Like with Brexit, you make your mind up about something, then only consider the arguments that fit your point of view rather than considering all the arguments then coming to a educated conclusion.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

You are using the much touted anti EV fossil fuel example where recharge is done by oil/ coal power. There are lots more renewable sources every day. This significantly changes the CO2 savings. Small cars being as low as one year to completely cancel out production emissions. Haters conveniently forget it costs CO2 to build ICE. But they keep polluting when driven.
However this is only one part of the naysayers doom and gloom rhetoric. There are no pollution emissions whilst EV vehicles sit in traffic jams. A slow moving EV becomes more efficient compared to a ICE, where emissions skyrocket. That's why EV are fantastic for short commute and town driving.

Battery life is being reported as being much longer than previously expected. There are Tesla vehicles with 700,000 miles being used as executive chauffeur driven cars. Early EV Toyata Prius and Nissan vehicles still doing well

BMWhere?

Yes, it costs CO2 to build an ICE, but significantly less than required for a BEV. EVs start with a huge CO2 deficit compared to ICE vehicles which takes time to recover. ICE vehicles also require CO2 when scrapping/recycling, but again significantly less than that of an EV. Another factor that the EV must recover during its life. The life of an EV battery is currently about 7 years, but may be anywhere between 5 and 10 years. Once the battery cells are dead, they need to be replaced or the vehicle is scrap. Replacing batteries on a 7yo car doesn't make a lot of sense and the cost will be higher than the value of the car, so many EVs will simply be scrapped after around 7 years, while ICE vehicles will continue to run.

Yes EV's have no CO2 during driving, but instead the CO2 is emitted during charging. The amount of CO2 emitted will be dependent on the energy mix of the country in question and that varies quite greatly from country to country. The yay-sayers will always look at the best possible option where, yes, a small car can be carbon positive in 1 year. Nay-sayers will look at the worst options where even small cars will struggle to be carbon positive. People like myself who take an open and educated view, know that in typical western countries, small cars will be carbon positive in around 2 years, but there will always be variance and for most countries (USA excluded), the trend is for more renewable energy which will help EVs be carbon positive in a shorter time.

As per usual, you have completely neglected the non-CO2 environmental damage caused by battery production. Mining for Nickel and Cobalt, and future plans for seabed dredging for Cobalt. Upstream desertification caused by water drainage for lithium extraction and subsequent contamination of ground water downstream. Production and disposal of harmful chemicals used in batteries and lithium extraction. There is little point saving CO2 if we are just going to destroy our planet in other ways!

As I have said many times, small (micro) BEVs for city driving which is largely in traffic, make a lot of sense. Larger BEVs for city driving only make sense for the health benefits from zero exhaust emissions, but not environmental reasons. Outside of city driving, BEVs make very little sense. Hydrogen makes far more sense, particularly for larger zero emission vehicles but the government are dragging their heels creating the fueling network. Hydrogen is not perfect yet, but the future potential for Hydrogen vehicles is far greater than BEVs! Ultimately, if we want to save CO2 emissions, simply continuing the status quo but with BEVs is not going to save the planet - in reality, we need to drive less, fly less, reduce industrial CO2 output, build more efficient buildings, reduce the amount of shipping and improve the efficiency of ships and perhaps most importantly, reverse deforestation and reduce population. Thinking you're saving the planet because you bought a >2 Ton EV is completely missing the point!

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Model 3 dont weigh 2 tonne, no more than Audi A3.

My Model S os a luxury car and is in the same ball park as all other top end makes.

When batteries fail it normally due to just a few cells that have spoilt the battery capacity I expect re engineered battery packs with the faulty cells replaced.


The battery tech is evolving, less reliance on rare compounds, which are a small percentage of battery chemistry.

Like engine rebuilds, battery refurbishment will become common

BMWhere?

I know the concept of fact checking is somewhat alien to you, or maybe you were just hoping that nobody would check....

Tesla Model 3 Curb Weight: 1611kg to 1847kg (depending on range and drive configuration)
Audi A3 Curb Weight: 1255kg to 1490kg
So that puts the Model 3 at about 350kg more than an A3 (Note curb weight includes fluids and 90% full fuel tank!). In effect a fully loaded A3 is about the same weight as an empty Tesla 3.

As for refurbished battery cells, the lack of standardisation of battery cells and no refurbishment ability built into the battery design unfortuately means refurbishment is highly unlikely, at least any time soon.

It is true that not all cells will fail at the same time, so stepped replacement over a few years will be more likely than replacing the whole lot in one go. In the end though, you will still need to replace all cells which on a 7 year old car will be difficult to justify. The owner may be willing to replace the first couple, but at some point they're going to say enough is enough! Once the battery replacement bombshell becomes common knowledge, the market for second hand EVs will completely collapse! The only viable option is from the manufacturers that offer battery rental but who wants to buy a car and then have a monthly subscription fee?

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Changing a battery pack is never going to be cheap, but it will become affordable, with battery prices per kW dropping as production increases.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04...18-finds-bnef/

IdonthaveaScooby

Just going to rape the earth of lithium rather than oil

andy97

iTrader: (1)

When you stop using any device that uses a lithium battery, feel free to come back and have a holier than you comment. Until then.....

coupe_20vt

iTrader: (2)

You know full well he'll ignore the facts you've placed in front of him.

He's a blinkered virtue signaller.

BMWhere?

because a 3000mAh mobile phone battery is exactly the same as the 100kWh battery array in a Tesla S

BMWhere?

It hasn't escaped me that he simply ignores all the posts that prove him wrong

andy97

iTrader: (1)

More lithium in mobile devices than Tesla vehicles, so its rather hypocritical to waffle on about it.

BMWhere?

I assume you mean in total rather than per device/car?
Fine if there are only a few EVs around, not so fine if everyone with a mobile device also drives a BEV!

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Its hypocritical to slag off EV when I bet a pound to a penny you own multiple electronic devices with lithium cell batteries.

I bet you never thought years ago when you acquired your first device with lithium cells, I'd better not use this because those poor kids are digging it up for me to enjoy long life device.

Its only since EVs have become popular that you and your ilk have tried to take the moral high ground.
To coin a phrase
Those without sin cast the first stone.

IdonthaveaScooby

Almost everyone can benefit from a mobile phone though , whilst ev car will always be a dream to most

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Comments of envy

IdonthaveaScooby

Is third world envious leccy cars ?

i think they’d just settle for any transport tbh

IdonthaveaScooby

Brake dust and asphalt just as bad as car emissions



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews...udy-625525/amp

BMWhere?

It's a case of moderation not one of not using any batteries at all. We can agree we need to move away from ICE transport, but we shouldn't blindly replace one evil with another. As more and more electric vehicles are being sold, the demand for lithium, cobalt and nickel has increased exponentially and is simply unsustainable. I've never said that nobody should drive a BEV, but people need to know that they are not the environmental saviour that they are being made out to be by glossy marketing and government backing. There needs to be alternative solutions, of which hydrogen is the most promising at the moment but there may well be other alternatives and even an argument to keep a certain percentage of ICE.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

The EU believes it can have sufficient minerals for EV from its own manufacturers, Portugal being the major European supply

mrtheedge2u2

Just out of interest, as I have no idea Andy, if you needed to replace your entire battery array in you Model S what sort of price are we talking? Or is it cheaper to throw the car away and start again?

BMWhere?

Its not something that Tesla is openly advertising. Musk twittered recently that Model 3 replacement would be $3000-$5000 which presumably is for the job lot and not per module and based on an estimated battery price at the time they will be replaced, probably assuming battery prices continue to fall at the same rate as current. At current prices, the estimated cost of a 75kWh pack is around $15K (~£11K). The Model S uses 16 battery modules so that would be around £700/module at the moment and estimated at around £250 in 8 years time. Currently the complete modules need to be replaced, you cannot currently replace the individual cells in a module although at least you don't need to replace the compete pack in one go! While you may only replace one module at a time, once the modules start to fail, then they will all fail within a relatively short time frame, so the first couple of £250 hits may be bearable, but when you get 16 hits within a couple of years of each other, it could become quite painful. It will be interesting to see what effect the battery replacement costs have on 2nd hand prices once the market understands the process and replacement costs become more transparent.

Another factor to consider is the Lithium battery recycling industry is currently only geared up for handling small packs as found in phones and laptops etc. Currently the industry is unable to recycle vehicle batteries at the scale already needed and is also unable to expand at the same rate as demand. There are however some hopes that vehicle batteries will be re-purposed rather than ending up in landfill. Battery packs that are no longer able to store enough power for vehicle use will still be able to store enough power for domestic lighting and such, so they could be used in combination with solar power charging to power homes in developing countries. Its a nice idea, but I suspect it will be too expensive to become a reality and it will be cheaper to just dump them

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Tesla use 18650 cells in banks, essentially the same form as laptop batteries.

I dont know how much, I dont know of anyone yet needing to buy as they have been covered by 8 year warranty. I see accident reclaimed battery packs go for $ big money. companies are able on some models to upgrade the car to greater capacity

andy97

iTrader: (1)

What car or whatever has results that Tesla model 3 is this years most reliable executive car. Must be doing something right 😄

IdonthaveaScooby

Fresh batteries innit

mrtheedge2u2

Are you really classing the model 3 as executive? Since when is the Audi A4, BMW 3 series etc classed as executive??

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I would personally describe it a medium sized executive vehicle. Its high end specifications

My Model S is definitely executive board member level

mrtheedge2u2

I think my our expectations are slightly different

High end executive in my opinion are - S-Class, BMW 750 LWB,
Medium executive - BMW 5 series, A6, E-class

I would say Model S could be be described as between high-end and medium. And model 3 below medium executive in line with BMW 3 series etc

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I didn't give the Model 3 the category,. The motoring magazine did.