bruceh

"I don't hate bikes, rather love them, it is some of the riders I hate."

I have exactly the same sentiment about horses/riders. Or should that be another thread?

Mike Rainbird

Dear Steve,
I'm feeling lazy, so check out the RSOC thread or the "Who's afraid of a Supra" one for the answers (I've posted it so many times on this BBS, I'm sure people are getting sick of it!), but in the words of Harry Enfield - "Considerably faster than yow!"
LOL
Mike

Sheridan

I can keep quiet no longer.
I am a biker and have been for 22 years, have a collection of bikes that would put some shows to shame. I am also an advanced instructor (rospa) and a track day instructor I have been racing bikes for 15 years, never had an accident on the road (touching woood) where it wasn't a prat in a car causing the accident, what is the point of all this ?
I do filter all the time, I did my advanced training with traffic area 6 and was given a rollocking on the first day for not filtering. It is a safe way of riding but the biker needs to the careful one as the car driver will be to busy listening to Wogan to notice the bike and if heaven forbid anything should happen the biker will come off far worse, which is why the highway code says to give way to bikes as they 'are particularly vulnerable' and the code is interested in avoiding injuries or worse.
You take your choice you can have your heating, radio & stay dry or you can get there in a reasonable amount of time. Don't bring up the fact that they drive close and alarm people one how alarmed do you think I feel when every car (and I mean every) is incapable of staying in their lane on a roundabout without drifting in towards the apex and sqishing me.
I don't mean to start another argument but I know they are going to do that so alter my position to suit, if you are in slow or staionary traffic you know a bike is going to filter.
Please don't take anything said personally I'm sure you are all very good drivers but I had to say my peice.
Sheridan

Mike Tuckwood

It's a pity your'e i Reading Sheridan, I would love to do my advanced test in summer.


Mike.

Sheridan

The chap I do the training with (I only do it as an excuse to ride) runs a school in Derbyshire called 1st class (they were voted best in UK in the RIDE poll)

Grubby

Well said Sheridan! I used to ride bikes (until about 15 years ago) and ever since have given due consideration to other motorcyclists. Most seem to appreciate this, but as in all walks of life there are examples of those who don't. In stationery/slow moving traffic on the motorway I will try to move over if a motorcyclist wants to filter through, after all, one of these reasons for choosing a bike is so that you don't have to sit in queues of traffic as often! However, those who race by at high speed when traffic is barely moving are a danger to themselves and other road users because they are not anticipating the road ahead and I doubt would be able to stop if necessary-these are the few who seem to spoil things for the majority.

AlexM

Hi All,

If I'm stationary adjacent to an obstacle on the offside such as a traffic island, I'll try to pull in slightly so that Bikers can get by. If one sees me doing this, they usually give me the 'thumbs up', which is welcome and good for my 'Carma'

I can't imagine what sort of person deliberatly blocks lanes off to people on Bikes presumably the same self-righteous berks who sit in the outside lane at 70 and refuse to budge regardless of the inconvenience to everyone else.

Live and let live.

Rgds,

Alex

ptholt

Don't take offence at this devil, but your talking utter garbage !

There is no law that says filtering is illegal or that filtering is 'driving without reasonable consideration' as you put it.

As sheridan said above and as i've said in previous posts, filtering is not illegal and can be done in bike tests if the applicant wishes to. (im pretty damn sure they'd fail them if they were illegal) The fact most dont do it in tests is because there are rules such as lane changing etc that have also been mentioned many times above that increase the risk of errors being made, which could increase the risk of failure. Therefore most students choose not to filter on test.

But then when you go to advanced motoring classes etc they positively encourage filtering, and seeing as a large proportion of these instructors are policemen, i doubt they would let you do it if it broke the law.

When i had some 1-1 tuition from a hendon bike instructor he let me bend certain rules when we were out (in the interests of the course), but he went loony if i broke them ***** nilly.
/me remembers speeding up slightly to keep up with him through a set of traffic lights that were about to change, got pulled over and told off for that one.

Like sheridan i am also a trained bike instructor, not to the same level as he, so i'd like to think I know what i was talking about.

NickF

RANT MODE WELL AND TRULY ON!!!

Dear Mr Advocate,

Two things

1 Why do you persist in describing filtering through traffic as queue jumping? To jump the queue would imply that you (waiting in the queue) were somehow slowed down as a result of a bike rider jumping the queue and taking your place. Perhaps you can tell me the last time this happened. A crisp fiver says this hasn’t happened, in this life or any other.

2 “Driving without reasonable consideration” has indeed been an offence for many years. So has “driving with excess alcohol” and “using a mobile phone whilst driving”. I could go on quoting road traffic offences until the cows come home, and still not find one that pertains to filtering. The fact that I’ve been taught to filter by a police Class 1 driver/rider leads me to believe that if done correctly it’s both legal and safe.

Steve McCullough

Re your ‘laugh and drive on’ comment. A good thing that not all motorists share your views – I wouldn’t be here had it not been for a trained first aider who stopped and assisted after I was T-boned by a van a few years back. And no, I wasn’t filtering at the time, nor speeding.

Stuart Knight

iTrader: (2)

I had a minor accident when filtering through traffic a couple of years ago. A guy in an Audi decided to change lanes on a dual carriageway (approaching Handy Cross roundabout from Marlow for those who know). He did the classic maneuvre, signal, look, routine and had me and my TL1000 bounce off his door and wing. No damage to my bike (that didn't T cut out) but did his door skin, wing, and damaged his wheel rim. My insurance company told him where to stick it when he tried to claim, and the police were not interested when he complained to them about my "dangerous" driving. Make of that what you will!!!

BTW I commute in and out of the city every day on my bike and 99.9 per cent of the car drivers do not try to block you, most get out of the way and let you through.

[This message has been edited by Stuart Knight (edited 21-01-2000).]

steve McCulloch

NickF

Thats a bit different then, sorry to hear it. I would probably act differently if some accident did occur mind you - I'm all talk and no doubt act differently in the 'real' world

Nic Doczi

Ok, at the risk of attracting more "reasoned arguments", can I pose the question:

Why do you think "filtering" is legal when undertaking is not? They both pose the same risks, that is, a vehicle appears in an unexpected place, thus increases risk of distracting a driver, or of being in collision. In fact, filtering between two lanes breaks several paragraphs in the Road Code - see my orginal post. Theoretically, filtering on the right of the right hand lane only breaks one paragraph (keeping bewteen the lane markings)

Nic

Nightmare

Dave - in response to your earlier (correct) comments about me generalising when using the word 'dangerous' I think you should take a look at your comments on 'living'. Riding a bike isnt exactly the most important thing in the world you know.....

I would agre with all the comments people have made about how riding a bike makes you a safer and more considerate driver. What it doesnt seem to do (from peoples opinions as written here) is make you a more considerate person....

Arguably, you could drive or ride any road to the best of your and your vehicles ability. I could spend a large amount of time doing 200mph up the M1 at 3 am to save myself time. My car is more than capable, and I THINK I am too... The reason we cant do things like this is because we have to expect the worst of others. As ive said in other threads, I belive that the moajority of people on this bbs will be above average as drivers. The rest of the world isnt. We're all happy to complain about ***** who cant drive - and yet we see it as inconceivable to expect these things. This strikes me as a bizarre kind of double standards.

The anti-filtering comments made here I doubt are from jealousy of bikes going places we cant. Some of you seem to think that because you're a good rider, and in theory a bike is as safe as a car, that you deserve some kind of 'good bikers invulnerability' If you're threading through traffic it IS bloody irritating when theres a car pulled across because the driver isnt paying attention - but its hardly a surprise.... We DONT have any right to filter, even if it isnt illegal, and I think perhaps there should be a little more consideration for other peoples views, and the 95% of british motorists who dont ride bikes...

Im prepared for abuse in return

Devils Advocate

When is queue jumping not queue jumping? that is the question and hence one of the initial premises behind this thread.

If a line of static/slow moving traffic is overtaken by another vehicle (bikes included), who does not observe the already formed queue and proceeds to overtake (not using a free lane in the same directional carriageway), then this is in effect jumping said queue no matter how you dress it up in flowery language.

Admittedly this offense is seldom exercised but I can assure you it is within police powers to report the matter for the question of prosecution to be considered under the Road Traffic Act (riding/driving without reasonable consideration for other road users).

The bottom line here is that bike riders do not have a god given right to perform such manoevres. If a case where a bike comes into contact with another vehicle whilst 'filtering', then not only do they risk their NCB, but also potentially, prosecution!

So lets all be carefull out there !!!

I have professional experience in this subject, so don't shoot the messenger!


[This message has been edited by Devils Advocate (edited 22-01-2000).]

Mike Tuckwood

Ah, Devils Advocate living up to his name.
Q: <B>When is queue jumping not queue jumping?</B>

A: <B>When you're in Traffic</B> (As opposed to a queue)

<B>Queue</B>: It would only be queue-jumping if every vehicle was waiting in turn to arrive at the exact same destination.

Where <B>TRAFFIC</B> is backed up, that is called a traffic-JAM (not a traffic queue).
Consequently any way of negotiating traffic and filtering for motorbikes is a recognised and acceptable method of doing so.

Devil's Advocate.
By your obscure interpretation, that means that if someone is in heavy traffic and takes a short-cut through backstreets and rejoins the traffic a mile later (and 10 minutes better off) he has queue jumped!
You need to book yourself time in with Anders old chap!

Your interpretation of the law, (regardless of any professional experience you may have had) is absolutely appaling!
If the CPS had something presented to them under the interpretation you give it would be dismissed instantly.

You say 'don't shoot the messenger' who's message are you carrying? It just sounds like you talking utter crap to me?

Interpretation does not allow you to take a generally worded offence such as riding without reasonable consideration for other road users and turn it into a specific offence because you want to.

The key words in the 'offence' that you relate to are REASONABLE, and CONSIDERATION. I think everbody here (all the bikers anyway) do show reason and consideration when filtering.


Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 22-01-2000).]

JamesH

Been away from BBS for a few days otherwise I would have been straight on this posting!

nic

Filtering through traffic is not illegal. There is no specific law to allow or disallow it. Therefore it is tolerated by the police/courts.

Devil's Advocate

As mentioned before, queue jumping per se is not illegal. You may cross the dividing lines in the centre of the road when it is safe to do so.

Of course, if you drive in a manner likely to cause injury or damage to other people/property then of course you may be nicked for driving without due care & attention.

At the end of the day in either filtering or "going to the head of the queue" extra care must be taken as average road-user may find the appearance of a bike from nowhere a little bit unsettling.

Devils Advocate

Since when have the CPS been getting involved in the determination of whether to follow up the prosecution of driving offenses usually handled by your local Police Force's Process department?

As for your ludicrous contention that a trafic jam does not constitute a queue of traffic, then I sincerely hope that you are not a road user!

There are far too many barrack room lawyers on this BBS who have little or no knowledge of the statutes and application of law...

I've told you the facts, if you choose to ignore them, then that's your look out, as I have said before ignorance of the law is not a plausible defense!

Happy Motoring

Sheridan

D A
I'm in Cairo at the moment, whatever you don't come here. Queues were made to be jumped, but I've never seen anything like this

ptholt

>There are far too many barrack room lawyers >on this BBS who have little or no knowledge >of the statutes and application of law...

And theres also one person who has nothing better to do than read the highway code, spout it off left right and centre when no one else seems to give a monkies, not even the police or driving test examiners !!

how many more times do people have to remind you that there IS NO LAW for filtering, queue jumping or whatever you wish to call it today.

Hows about doing us a favour and returning to stewing in traffic in your car as we come past

>I've told you the facts, if you choose to >ignore them, then that's your look out, as >I have said before ignorance of the law is >not a plausible defense!

Facts are only a use to those that are interested, unfortunately for you the bikers here, the police and the driving test examiners are obviously not that bothered about it.

Mike Tuckwood

Since when have the CPS been involved Etc?

Since the appearence of contentious (at best) interpretations of laws that do not exist.

If you wish to write law, get elected and raise a bill on the subject, don't sit at home reading your highway code and filling in bits which you think should be there.

Mike.

Devils Advocate

It appears we have some Ostrich's who like to contribute to this Bulletin Board .

I rest my case !

[This message has been edited by Devils Advocate (edited 24-01-2000).]

JamesH-2

I think it is time to let Devil's Advocate go play with himself. I will post a public apology to him if I myself, or any of the 100+ couriers in our company, or indeed if I hear of any other courier in London, being nicked for his "offence".

Let this thread go to rest...

Mike Tuckwood

What am I playing at! I had the answer at my very finger tips all along.

Please find extract on 'Filtering' from;
<B>Motorcycle Roadcraft</B> THE POLICE RIDERS HANDBOOK.

'<B>Motorcycle Roadcraft</B>' <I>was initiated by the Police Foundation at the request of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO).
It was produced by the National Police Driving Schools' Conference motorcycle Road craft working Party in conjunction with the Police Foundation and the National Extension College.

Motorcycle Roadcraft has been approved by ACPO, which is satisfied that it reflects current best practice in Police rider instruction and takes into account the relevant views of civillian experts.</I>

Chapter 8 Overtaking
=====================

Filtering, page 139.

When traffic is stationary or moving slowly in queues, motorcyclists can use their manoeuvrability and limited space requirements to make progress. The advantages of filtering along or between stopped or slow moving traffic have to be weighed against the disadvantages of increased vulnerability while filtering.

If you decide to filter:

<LI>take extreme care <LI>keep your speed low - you need to be able to stop suddenly if circumstances change <LI>always identify a place where you can rejoin the traffic flow before you move out <LI>make yourself visible - consider using dipped headlight <LI>be ready to brake and/or use the horn <LI>use the opportunity to make progress but be courteous and avoid conflict with other road users.

Watch out for and anticipate:

<LI>pedestrians crossing between vehicles <LI>vehicles emerging from junctions <LI>vehicles changing lanes or U-turning without warning <LI>doors opening <LI>reflective paint and studs which could throw the bike off line <LI>traffic islands <LI>other bikes also filtering.

I think <B>That</B> just about puts this issue to rest (in favour of the righteously correct bikers)!

Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 24-01-2000).]

NickF

Yes, but what you (and the Police, who obviously should know better) don't understand is that this is till queue jumping! And as this means you will get to the head of the queue before me, you are obviously Breaking The Law and should be dealt with most severely. Getting somewhere faster than I do is punishable by 6 points (reckless driving) and an unlimited fine - ignorance of this is no excuse.

I'm planning on taking the cats off my Scooby, running DDT through the engine and pointing the pipe to the side of the car.

Now THAT should take care of those scummy bikers.

Bajie

I don't care if you filter or not.
But if you sit behind me turn that blasted headlight off.
Or sit on my rear quarter.
Thanks.
Personally, I prefer bikes to be in front of me.

Weaver

Hey DA whilst you're on your rather large soap box why not trying to get cyclists banned from the roads. Those nasty little two wheeled gits don't even pay to use the roads. They don't have insurance either...hang'em all that's what I say!!!

Mike you've hit the nail on the head and that should be the end of that I think.....

ptholt

Wow thank god for that, a driver that saw my headlight

Trouble is its catch 22.
You get those that don't notice this bright red Italian bike making a noise like thunder, headlight on, with a rider with black and bright purple leathers with blue spots and very bright helmet.
or those that do notice and start brake testing me coz the headlights dancing in the mirror.

I like to have my headlight on as it makes me feel a bit better that people can see me, however i saw a recent set of stats from Norwich union (main bike insurer) stating that whether the rider had a headlight on or not made little difference. If you're not seen you ARE not seen.

I remember having a nice little chat with an elderly chap in a honda that pulled out right in front of me then stopped at the side of the side of the road to pick up his missus.

He didn't see me, hear me or know i was even on the planet till i swerved round him gesticulating wildly.