I had a rant on another thread question the way motor bikes thread through lanes of cars.

Several replies said it was legal but any accident resulting from this would have the presumption it was the biker’s fault.

Since I did not know, I have looked through the Road Code, as this is a good proxy for the Traffic regulations. I am no lawyer, so don't expect too much.

What is surprising is that car drivers are exhorted to provide specific consideration to motor cycle riders with nothing special in return. In absolute terms, this is right as a car, truck can do much more damage than a bike, but interesting.

Here are some relevant passages:

Para 52. "watch out for cycles and motorcycles... their riders have same rights as other road users and are particularly vulnerable. Give riders plenty of room."

OK nothing about riders giving other vehicles plenty of room though! How many times have you seen bikes swoop through lines of traffic with inches to spare?

Para 84. "where double white lines, ...and line nearest you is unbroken... you MUST NOT cross or straddle it...

Para 87. Short broken white lines divide the roads into lanes - keep between them..."

Para 89. If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors to make sure you will not force another driver or rider to swerve or slow down. If it is safe to move over, signal before you do so."

Para 101. When overtaking motorcyclists,... give them at least as much room as you would give a car.."

Para 102. "Do not overtake on the left unless... traffic is moving slowly in queues and vehicles in a lane on the right are moving more slowly than you are"

Para 103. "In slow moving traffic queues, move to the left only to turn left. Do not change lane to the left to overtake. Cyclists and motorcyclists overtaking traffic queues should watch out for pedestrians crossing..."

So filtering through traffic by moving to the left lane to overtake is definitely prohibited by para 103. But, where a bike does not follow a lane, what then? The Road Code is silent on this point.

So the policeman who said "it's your fault" to the biker who crashed into a car parking on the left was probably correct. He should not have been overtaking. Of course, if the bike was central in a lane and had not moved to the left, then he had every right to overtake.

All clear?

Anyway, I still hate bikes filtering through traffic as it is so dangerous, and to do it is at their peril.

Nic

The whole point in riding a bike is so that you can get past all the tin boxes (subaru's included) and not be forced to sit in traffic!

On a semi-related point (ie. cyclists and not motorcyclists); here in Poole they built cycle paths for cyclists, at the expense of pavements. However, you still find the cyclists wandering about in the road, many without lights...
But as a pedestrian, if you put one foot in a cycle path they're up in arms!!

I dunno, and they don't even pay any road tax!

Paul L
(grrrrr!)

Nic - may I suggest you avoid...er...anywhere within 50 miles of Le Mans on the evening of 16/4 - shouldn't be too difficult eh?
You may otherwise be "deeply concerned" (**itless!) by the extremely rapid French race fans racing away after the 24hr race - up your ar*e, passing left and right at 120mph within inches of your car....

Nic,

As a biker and a scooby driver i found your post somewhat amusing, a little insulting and very blinkered . In fact you remind of my 60 year old mother !

She has an interesting attitude of 'I cant get any further because of the traffic so why should they.'
This is usually followed with her leaving her volvo at such an angle that credit cards would struggle to get through. Drives me mad it does.

How many lines of highway code could i go through around that we ALL neglect every day ?
I suspect the reason that cars have to give consideration to bikes/cycles is that they are a little heavier, and whereas the occupants of cars usually walk away from accidents with bikes/cycles, riders of bikes + cycles usually come off a fair bit worse.

How's this for a nice example. A friend of mine last Feb out riding his bike, went round a left hander a little too quick for the tyres liking (cold road, cold tyres), he lost the front and slid into the middle of the road. The oncoming Volvo estate driver was so busy arguing with his wife (as witnessed by the driver behind) he didnt notice the rider and the bike sliding down the white line, and as he was sitting on it at the time he 'collected' both rider and bike. He had dragged my friend over 300 yards before he eventually stopped, it took him so long to stop that the transit van behind him had already stopped and the driver was running up the road with his trolley jack to get my friend out, sadly he died of his injuries before the ambulance arrived.

What happened when the Police arrived ?
the Volvo driver and wife said the bike came speeding around the corner slid off in front of them and they couldn't stop.
The police where happy with this statement even though the van driver couldnt believe his ears.
We were all sent on our way minus a friend since childhood.

As far as filtering and overtaking etc live and live is what i say, i'm sure you have overtaken somewhere that you probably shouldnt have at sometime in your driving life.

Just for your reference, when riders are being trained for their licence the official word is - there is no official word on 'filtering through traffic'
The student can do so if he wishes or he can sit in the traffic, but if he decides to filter and does something wrong (like one of the things mentioned in your post, over taking on the left of the traffic is looked down on) they will fail the test. Hence why most are instructed to sit in the traffic during there test, then filter afterward they have passed.

Personally, if im riding and there is a gap i can get through, then i will do. If its down to inches as you put it, then i probably wouldn't try it. 15k worth of ducati and my health is worth more to me than getting past someone in traffic when i can have much more fun blowing there doors off on the open road - cars quick ? nnnaaaahhhh dont think so.

I just hope your not one of the very sad individuals like my mother who blocks bikes at every turn, and even if they come up behind her in normal traffic to overtake, she moves over to the white line to make them move further out.
I like Barry Sheenes solution to this when he was a courier - carry a set of small fising weights, and introduce them to the door mirror of cars that do it to you.

well well well - I dont think Im about to make a huge number of friends....

I dont think Nic was saying he dislikes bikes or bikers (and yes I am one and have been for quite a long time) He was saying he didnt like traffic threading, and was interested to find out if there was any legality behind it.

I totally agree with Devil about pholts response..... what sort of example are you trying to set, and exactly what point are you kaing. Riding a bike is very dangerous compared to driving a car. There is no possible argument over that. A friend is currently in hospital after threading through motorway trffic which was staionary, and someone opened their drivers door...... BUt as he said 'they should have bloody looked but it was my fault' And it was.

I filter through traffic - and I do agree with the points about people delinerately blocking - its pathetic and annoying - but not an excuse to damage their vehicle (which my knees have managed ACCIDENTLY on occaision. "Oh Im sorry me lud, but the citroen in front of me wasnt going as fast as I like so I rammed it off the road"

I usually find evryone here very reasonable inded, but I think that you've misread Nics point, and amde a couple of extremely unfortunate and childish responses to what was just opinion and information.

rant over.
sorry
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

What a very mature response.....NOT!!!

I hope you have good insurance as you will be getting lots of claims against you, not to mention negligent/careless driving!!

Remember queue jumping is also "driving/riding without reasonable consideration for other road users"

It seems perhaps you are just as blinkered...Glass houses and stones come to mind!

Nic,

So you don't like bikes or bikers? Fair enough - there's room for all opinions.

But do get off your high horse and stop quoting traffic regulations. I believe there's one which states the maximum speed on derestricted roads as 60mph, with a 70 mph limit on motorways. I presume you've never exceeded these limits?

So what did you buy your Scooby for then?

Dear All,
The only people that write comments like this are the ones that have NEVER ridden a bike and don't ever intend to ("noisy dangerous horrible things"). Unfortunately, if you ignore them, they still won't go away - so just tolerate them and think "there, there" in you best patronising frame of mind, as they will never know what they are missing...

My own opinion is, if you can't beat us, why not join us?! If everyone was on bikes, there wouldn't be the queues in the first place....

The best and most considerate car drivers are the ones who ride bikes, as they can see both sides of the fence... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif(IMHO (unbiased!) of course!).
LOL
Mike

Well Said Mike. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

No, BLOODY well said Mike. Also ptholt, couldn't agree more. I don't carry fishing weights with me but it's a funny coincidence that after you get cars blocking a biker filtering the cars wing mirror tends to end up at the wrong angle. Dashed strange that!

Mr. Doczi, the reason the Highway Code mentions bikers in the same breath as cyclists et al is that we are perceived as *vulnerable* road users. To be honest though, and I'm sure Mike and Mike will agree here, you would not have to give me a wide bearth because you would not be passing me unless I was parked at the side of the road. It is not that dangerous to filter through traffic - mainly because it is usually going in the same direction.

You'll also be seeing more bikes on the road in the near future - last year was the best for bike sales since 1982! Mainly new mopeds for people wanting to beat the congestion caused by all the cars! From the PA News site - food for thought:

WORKERS DRIVE UP MOTORBIKE SALES

Commuters switching from car to bike helped
motorcycle sales in 1999 reach their highest
level for 17 years.

Sales of machines in Greater London
represented 15.2% of total UK purchases last
year, said the Motorcycle Industry Association.

Overall, 152,416 motorcycles, scooters and
mopeds were sold in 1999 - a 27% increase on
the 1998 total and the biggest annual figure
since 1982.

152,416 people must be wrong huh???

Dave

I have never had a problem with bikers filtering through traffic(OK I don't drive in London very often). One of the reasons people don't like it is because it scares/surprises them. They don't expect a bike to be overtaking them while the're stuck in traffic.
I always make a point when in slow moving/stationary traffic to look out for motorbikes and pull over if possible to give them some more room.
Why make life harder for them??

Mark

PS I don't ride a bike

Nightmare - you say you ride a bike? You say it is dangerous compared to driving a car? Can you please use a different phrasing which is more accurate? One is not more dangerous than the other - however, if you have an accident you are more likely to be injured if riding a bike than driving a car.

Just saying it is *more dangerous etc* just perpetuates the myth that it is! When I only had a bike for transport I would turn up at my first job in the snow and people would say, 'You rode here on your bike? But didn't you fall off???'. My reply was, 'Why?'.

Perceptions. Let's not try to perpetuate the wrong ones.

And Nic, your post has been interpreted as 'I hate bikes'. If it wasn't and you were merely pointing out the 'grey area' with bikes filtering through traffic then apologies for my comments.

Dave

hmmmm seems my post was as misworded and misguided as nic's was, and for that i apologise.

I was not trying to set any examples, in fact if you read it i said 'live and live is what i say'.

I also said i liked mr Sheenes response to vehicles that deliberatley block, i did not say everyone should do it, or that its right to do it.
It just summed up how many bikers feel, but it doesnt mean we do it or will ever do it in the future. I have never touched any car when riding. Hence in my 20 years of riding and 12 years of driving I have never had any claims or any convictions other than an sp30.

Mr advocate, who on earth was talking about queue jumping ? I was talking about filtering through traffic, for which as nic correctly states there is NOTHING specifically covering this area in the highway code.
Surely queue jumping is more akin to morons who drive right up to the cones at roadworks then force there way in, much to the annoyance of everyone else.

As for bikes being more dangerous, i don't really agree with that argument. take 1 quiet road add one car, and you would agree there not much danger in that.
Take the same quit road and one motorbike, is there any more danger in that ?
I dont think so.

As for Mr champions friend in hospital, im a little surprised that he felt it was his own fault that he was knocked off when filtering through traffic due to a driver opening a car door in front of him. I was always under the impression that you stayed in your car on a motorway, not got out for a walk round when the traffic stopped.
for example If you were passing a lane of cars in traffic that was tightly packed and a door was opened right in front of you and you crashed into it, would you still think it was your own fault ?
I think i'd be having a little chat with the driver about due care and attention.
How many of us check the mirror when opening the car door onto roads etc ? I know i do.

I apologise if i worded my original post poorly, i read nics post and took it to be an attack on bikes, i saw red and got a tad carried away.

Err Nightmare has a friend in hospital not me

Interesting post.

It does frustrate me that some bikers nearly rip the wing mirrors off on occassions - us car drivers cant be permanently looking in the side mirrors.

If a bike wants to weave in traffic they do so at their own risk - as others have said, if anything goes wrong, its clearly their fault.

Re the higheway code about giving them plenty of room - that is of course when you are over taking them, rather than you having to swerve on the Motorway, whilst in slow moving traffic to let the b**tards through!

At least now I can keep up at the lights against most of them - a few have nearly fallen off in horror at me still being behing them.

Bikers want you to be considerate to them, ie when overtaking, etc - but they are nver considerate to anyone themselves!

If a bike rider fell off while doing some stupid 'normal' manoevre, I would simply laugh and drive on.

Steve,
Mmmmm, nice attitude. Remind me to not say hello to you at Donnington! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif
Mike

Steve - I can't believe you wrote that stuff! You won't get bikers ripping your mirrors off - for the simple reason that if we get tangled up with wing mirrors we usually fall off!

As for being 'inconsiderate' - explain? You obviously don't ride a bike yourself so have no clue as to how/why certain manouvers are made. If we are *filtering* on the m'way, as I've said before, just stay in your lane. It's our responsibility to make sure what we do is safe. Personally I will always be considerate to car drivers (unless of course they've just tried to knock me off!) as this helps to counter any anti-bike attitudes they may have.

As for you just laughing and driving off - I find that rather an abhorrant attitude from a fellow (supposedly) human being!

Dave

Sorry, went a bit over the top, buts that how I feel.

Why does a motorbike rider have the right to push through traffic, or go to the head of the queue at the traffic lights? - I guess we get a miffed at times. I'm a cyclist on the road an certainly dont weave or go to the front of he queue (most of the time) as its mostly too dangerous to do so, as most drivers are very inconsiderate to cyclists - i.e dont give enough room on overtaking.

Mike
Surely you wont be able to say anything to anyone, except

'****, the cars shagged again - I need a new rear diff!'

Steve,
In reply to your first comment: Because we can.... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif So get a bike and join in the fun!
LOL

And to your second, we'll see at Donnington and the next Santa Pod's won't we...
Regards
Mike

Filtering through traffic is just a euphemism for Queue Jumping and hence can be prosecuted against as riding without reasonable consideration for other road users.

The mere fact that bike riders can perform this feat whereas car drivers cannot without endangering oncoming traffic/driving off road, does not justify their actions or minimise the offence at all.

Best to live by the motto “Be Seen – Be Safe”, then I am sure that bikers and drivers alike will get along swimmingly!

Mike

Just out of interest, as I dont read every post on the BBS about Fords (even though I used to be an Escort Cosworth owner, and lived near Well Lane Turbo - goods times - at least the suspension was better than my STI 5) what is your best quarter mile time?
Just interested, as then I can work out what investment is required to blow you away at track meets - probably not much!

(only kidding - I here your car, when working is rather powerful)

I don't hate bikes, rather love them, it is some of the riders I hate.

OK, I haven't ridden one for years otherwise I would not be so "wholier than thou" but get real guys. How many threads have there been about not undertaking, moving over etc. Often bikers just absent themselves from these considerations and rides as if on a Nintendo.
Yet, when ever they get knocked off, it always the "stupid" car driver who "didnt see them".

I keep myself amused when being undertaken by these guys by trying to work out if I would do the same if I rode now. Maybe the answwer is in the fact I havent bought a bike (could easily afford even my dream machine, have had a full bike license since age 17)

Anyway, we have all worked out our gripes and feel better, yes?

Nic

Also, have a care, I am without my Scooby till the stolen wheels can be found.

As for French bikers, they are truly mad, but, then so are the car drivers.

good to see we're all taking this a bit better now http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

Dave - point taken about 'dangerous' - an inadvisedly used word. But I do think you were all being just a little bit 'semantics' when you knew what I meant http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

Yep - drivers shouldnt get out of their cars on motorways. And PJ shouldnt have been doing 60mph through stationary traffic. Its like my comment on the 'police knocking over lady' thread. Biker was in the 'right'. Biker is also the one in hospital..... I think he'd rather be in the wrong and not have a broken leg, cracked pelvis, 5 broken ribs and a shattered collar bone http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

Mr devil,

what offence are you talking about ?
is this some new law that hasn't yet made it to the highway code or something ?

there is no offence covering filtering or queue jumping as you want to call it, when its done correctly.

(unless you mean weaving from lane to lane like a madman, but hey thats only bikes and car drivers on the M25 never weave between lanes do they :p

Steve, as for blowing bikes away in a scooby, either you were challenging a honda c50 scooter delivering pizza's, or they nearly fell off laughing at you trying to beat them.
I picked up my standard sti5 and had to take it back to the dealers in dorking to have few minor points looked at, i took the opportunity to go past boxhill and see how the scooby fared.
Answer - blown away at the lights by a cbr400, didnt start pulling him back till way into third/fourth gear by which time he was slowing for the forthcoming roundabout anyway.

Nic, I passed my bike test a couple of years ago and remember having the same conversations with both my examiner and instructor. I was very interested to find out where we stood on the filtering/overtaking manouvres, especially as the test was in west London. The answers from both were the same:
"If you are making progress SAFELY, taking account of all the traffic around you and not braking the law i.e. overtaking on crossings/solid lines then it is OK"
The examiners drive bikes and understand that one of the reasons for biking is to make progress where larger vehicles cannot, therefore they ensure that we are taught to do so as safely as possible.
I am a white van man by day on the M25 and have a lot of respect for bike couriers etc, its the dozy car drivers who make banned turns/jump lights/on phones/blocking lanes/blind lanechanges/etc who seem to cause the most bike accidents, and I see a lot.
I know that if you were to ride then you would become a lot more aware of what is around you...because your life literally depends on it, this in turn makes you more aware of how vunerable bikers are and how/why they drive as they do.

Thats a very good point dan, I see myself as a much better driver as a result of riding bikes.

You become so much more observant dont take your safety for granted just coz your in a tin box.

In fact i feel a lot of drivers would benefit from riding a bike. Interesting things like are learnt like slippery white lines, manhole covers, cold tyres etc.

And so to summarise (as I started an earlier thread which generated this one) ...

Bikers - take care out there, and filter carefully

Drivers - be aware that bikes can and will filter; please just let them through and respect bikes as an alternative method of transport

Everyone - I think it's best to avoid stereotyping people on the BBS. After all, many of us have driven a white van at some point in their lives and didn't downgrade our skills for the occasion. Not all Scooby drivers are good drivers by any means.

[puts on flame-proof suit]

It looks pretty lively in here....

My thoughts are that I don't mind bikes weaving through static traffic and will gladly do my best to give them a bit more room.

However, what does annoy me is when I'm out driving in a queue of moving traffic on an A-road and I'm keeping a safe distance between myself and the car in front - a safe distance, that is, until a bike overtakes and tucks in right in front of my bumper to await the next overtaking opportunity. If I had to stop suddenly, in all likelihood, I'd hit him. And there'd be nothing I could do. Even worse is when a bike suddenly appears alongside me and I have to pull in the gutter because there's a wide load heading the opposite direction.

The problem is that, while I always strive to treat a motorcyclist the same as any other vehicle on the road (i.e. lots of room when overtaking, etc.), it seems many motorcyclists I've encountered don't feel the same in return. It's just a question of courtesy for other motorists and, in my opinion, it's not a bikers vs. drivers debate it's a inconsiderate drivers debate. The biker who forces a car into braking or swerving is no better than that **** of rep who sits up your arse in his Vectra....

IMHO

The offence which covers queue jumping is
"Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users"

It is the same act and section as careless driving and has been around for many years!

And remember ignorance of the law is not considered a plausible defense.