Martin2005

Since when we're you bothered about the economies of southern Europe? Oh I know, never. You just enjoy using their misfortune to make a point to prove your view of the world.

Anyway, you'd be quite happy if the UK looked liked Southern Europe as long as we are out of the EU. So much disingenuous crap from you I'm afraid.

Go ask the young of Southern Europe where their future lies, I can guarantee you it isn't in the kind of backwards isolationist neverland you favour.

You couldn't give a **** really, you just want your ideology to win.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Hair...split....end of.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

It was formulated on the popular Roleplaying Game forum, RPG.net and named after the now-banned user who inspired it. A synopsis of the discussion which led to Danth's Law can be found on RPG.net

Oh dear....sounds of barrel scraping? yep, that's it.......

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Bitter...very bitter...and, as usual, very wrong.

Petem95

If you're going to make comparisons you need to have the stats based on the same measure. By the same measure you quote Spain would probably have 75%!

If we look at stats from 2013 from an OECD report, the UK amongst the lowest rates of child poverty in the developed world at 10%, while Spain has amongst the highest 25%.

http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/CO_2_2_Child_Poverty.pdf

Petem95

Martin, you're a smart guy but your blinkered view of the EU is unbelievable. In your eyes it's just so perfect you cannot accept any form of questioning or criticism, and like a true liberal will avoid the debate and just resort to insulting the other party instead.

I'm sure the young living in the devastated southern economies, who are statistically very likely to be unemployed and impoverished really love the EU that has shafted their country's economy.

The EU is not sustainable in it's current form it's as simple as that. You'll have to face the harsh reality sooner or later.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Ideogically its a flawed concept.

The original economic agreement and free trade within were principally sound, especially at a time when the member countries could not come close to the economies in Japan and the USA.

But as it evolved and continue to expand to a larger and more singular political entity the less it is able to cater for the individual needs of each member country. As it grows it becomes slower to adapt and act to our changing needs and environment; Terrorism, Poverty, Employment, Mass-migration both within member countries and outside the EU, Environment blah blah, the tricky issues get talked about enough but nobody agrees and then nothing gets done to address it, meanwhile the trivial policies get enacted. So we have our coal power stations shut down and our light bulbs being banned, but then they don't agree to any policy to manage the mass influx of migrants comming in from outside of the EU which all make a bee-line for the most developed/popular countries; Given the choice member countries do not want them, so no EU policy is set out to manage an ever concerning issue.

This one but major issue has resulted in devolved policies which each individual country has applied on their own initiative - Germany;Open arms, UK;Nope (never part of Schengen anyway). Balkans;increase boarder security. Austria+Netherlands; reimposing boarders. And everyone else; Fine, so long as you're just passing through. Fine BUT we are supposed to have freedom of movement EVERYWHERE within the EU. So clearly this is not working, but Tusk et al just glosses over it.

If the EU cannot sit down a re-evaluate and adapt its existing policies to manage disproportionate migration, the distribution and resettlement of asylum seekers, the economic migration from outside the EU, along with poor efforts in collaborating a EU wide terrorism policy, the likes of LePenn will become stronger and stronger.

I wanted to stay within the EU, however since brexit my view has changed somewhat, I had a view that with the right MEPs the EU could be influenced more positively, but from the current stance and belligerence shown by EU leaders, I'm starting to think that politically we maybe better off, despite being financially and economically hampered because of it, as has been shown in the EUs rhetoric attitude that any UK-EU agreement must not and never put the UK at an advantage. Morally, who'd be part of such a organisation?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Martin might be guilty of many things, but I'm pretty certain that claiming the EU is perfect has never been one of them. In actual fact, if I had the time and could be bothered, I could probably find you dozens of posts he's made here stating the very opposite!

So it was the EU's fault that dozens upon dozens of local and regional banks in Spain got into bed with local and regional governments throughout the 1990s and 2000s, and promoted irresponsible/unsustainable levels of property development, which then came back and bit them on the @rse when the whole house of cards fell down in 2008? It's the fault of the EU that Italy has sufferred for decades from a system of government and entrenched corruption that makes it so difficult to run the country in any halfway sane manner that it's astonishing it keeps going at all? The only real exception here is Greece and the sorry tale of its membership of the Euro, but even that was in large part self-inflicted by the Greeks themselves, who were only too happy to see the rules bent to allow them in to start with. Of course, if you've got convincing proof that the state of the economies in those countries has more to do with their membership of the EU than simply the way things have always been there, you're very welcome to share it. I won't be holding my breath though.

Right, because you have all the answers, including a ready-made template for a new, improved EU which will have none of the problems that the old one has/had, and which will magically fix all the problems that would be happening in the individual member countries even if they'd never joined. Don't you?

Petem95

These issues are all exacerbated by being forced to use a currency which is too strong for their economies! How hard is it to grasp this!

Another thing which is going to start causing further issues for the EU soon is the fact that inflation has started to take off in some EU countries - Spain for example has seen inflation rates approaching approaching 3% now (since mid 2016), whereas Greece it's still close to 0%.

In this instance Spain would want interest rates to rise to rein in inflation, but that would hammer Greece further so they would oppose it. The single currency just doesn't work over such differing economies.

If the EU weren't so unbelievably arrogant and inept they probably would have restricted the Euro to core central European economies and allowed Spain, Greece, Italy etc to continue with their own currencies and central banks until their economies were up to a comparable level (would take decades however), but instead they've just gone all-in and now won't admit it was a mistake.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I could be wrong, but I don't think much of Le Pen's support was built-up on the back of the issues of asylum seekers and other recent waves of immigration. The FN might have played on those themes in more recent times, but in the main their base has come from people opposed to the large-scale, government-sanctioned immigration from France's ex-colonies.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

How hard is it to grasp that the EU is not the Euro, and the Euro is not the EU!

Again, valid or not as all the above may be in terms of criticism of the Euro, I'm still not seeing anything here which fundamentally calls into question the entire existence of the EU.

Still not holding my breath.

Petem95

Right, so I'll take this that you are accepting that there are some serious failings with the Euro (that's the single currency)?! This is progress - first you have to face up to the fact there is a problem, then you can look towards potential solutions.

Contrary to what you are implying, I was not against the EU in it's original form, much in the same way as Ali-B points out. But what it's become now - yes I'm very much against it because it's becoming incredibly damaging to the European continent. Pretending it isn't and clinging onto idealistic fantasies just digs the hole deeper.

dpb

So the Eu is not the largest economy in the world ?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al)_per_capita


( damaged )



compared with 40 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._1970_and_1979

dpb

How much better/worse are European standards living versus USA , for instance

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And always have been?

dpb

Was looking for the catastrophic damage being wrecked

neil-h

I do enjoy these exchanges.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Keep asking the wrong question, and you'll keep getting the wrong answer. In the present case, you're so hell-bent on scoring the ideological point that the Euro was a questionable idea to start with (or a passable idea questionably executed), or that the EU has made other serious mistakes over the years, that you're glibly overlooking the fact it's a pointless exercise hoping to go back and remake history. The question you really should be weighing up is whether the potential benefits of completely tearing up an institution that's developed over 6 decades and starting from scratch would outweigh the potential costs and risks of doing so, as opposed to just trying to improve the parts of it that need improving. Maybe if you spent a little more time on here doing that, instead of just repeating the same tired old "Euro this, EU that" negative mantras, your posts might meet with a more constructive reception from people like Martin or myself (or who knows, even the likes of Alcazar).

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

hey..........

The likes of Alcazar have been shown to be right, over the years. I predicted brexit, I also predicted trump. I even was amongst those who predicted the collapse of the Brown economy.

neil-h

What's the saying about broken clocks?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

See, you are falling back on homilies, instead of accepting that Alcazar WAS RIGHT!

Petem95

I'm not asking questions, I'm stating what is obvious. The EU is not on a sustainable path, and you can only sustain the unsustainable for so long. Just wanting something to work is not enough to actually make it work.

The EU has had it's chance, how long do you give it?! If you've been running a company at a loss for decades, do you keep on with blind faith thinking "this might be the year we turn it around", or do you accept that ok we tried, it didn't work, it's time for the alternatives.

It's honestly a real shame that the basic concept of the EU morphed into what it's become now - an inefficient, undemocratic, bureaucratic mess. Those in Brussels like Juncker are so arrogant they would never admit to making mistakes, so meaningful change is almost impossible.

Maybe you are just someone who really really wants this to work out, but surely even someone with that viewpoint must admit - in it's current form, and with people like Juncker, things don't look good for the future of the EU.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Consider that General Motors Europe (Vauxhall) has not made any profit for 17 years and racked up billions in losses. It could well be that the EU's business equivalent is indeed Vauxhall LOL.

It's ability to deny anything is wrong with their cars is also along the same lines...

Like their Corsas with severe brake defects causing severe instability when braking at speed ( no brakes on one front wheel ...not on watch dog...yet), that's before the entire car sets on fire. Yet when pressed by the public and media they deny anything is wrong!

So we'll have a very long wait for any collapse. Too many within it are all too willing to paper over the cracks. We will know better after whoever wins the French election; As both candidates want changes, so if the EU remains as stubborn as usual, then I can see the situation worsen even quicker.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Or have vested interests, so are simply going to lie to protect them.

dpb

My astra didn't catch fire once , apparently you need zafira to do it properly

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

The EU was/is flawed. People want change. The UK voted Brexit, the brexiteers were as 'ill informed' as the remoaners.
The referendum would have the same result tomorrow despite what your rag tells you.

If Le Pen loses then I see us as even more isolated and the trend will begin for other nations to remain. If Le Pen wins then the EU will either fall or have to face up to its own arrogance and change.

ALL of the EU migrants I speak to agree with the UK leaving, don't see it as racist or any other nonsense. And they all want their home countries out of the EU. These are young working age men from Romania, Bulgaria primarily but also Poland and Estonia. All will return to their home nations in the future.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Interesting. I speak to quite a few french people, and have yet to find one who actually wants France to remain in.

Yet the Brits I know living over there want us in. For various reasons ranging from a wish to retain dog-passports to describing themselves as "globalists"

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Lol globalists.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Sorry, but in effect you are asking at least one question here, namely, "what should the EU be replaced with?" Or perhaps you'd rather see it scrapped and replaced with nothing at all, but that doesn't seem to be what you're arguing for elsewhere.

With relatively few exceptions, couldn't the same be argued about pretty much the entire planet?

Again, for this to be a meaningful criticism, you have to offer at least some evidence to suggest that workable alternatives exist, and that they would have produced a significantly better outcome(s).

See earlier point about the future of much of the planet. Also, I've already said myself that I'm all in favour of making changes to the EU where these would be useful. Lastly, you seem to be vacillating here between wanting to scrap the thing entirely, or just reform it. What is it that you really want?

andy97

iTrader: (1)

The EU as a club allowed/invited poorer less developed countries to join in the hope of raising/dragging their economies up to the standard of Northern Europe.

What is actually happening is that the poorest are dragging the wealthy down, with financial burden and uncontrolled migration

Companies are now moving within the EU state to find the cheapest labour at the great anger to those who have been left without a job.

Migration follows this(where the money is) which depletes the young from the poorest countries and they cannot grow without young workers so begin to contract in size compounding the problem of the EU to lift these poorer countries up.

Sooner or later the EU project is going to split and its been agreed by the biggest nations, Germany, France. A two tier European union will be created.

Effectively ditching the poorest nations to fend for themselves. The gap between rich and poor nations will grow bigger. I suspect border controls will be introduced to control population of the working force in the richer nations to not to upset their natives.

How long, who knows but the signs are there for a significant change in the EU