So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
24 October 2018, 09:25 AM
#3572
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Shock, horror, many immigrants aren't net contributers at all and hence have increased pressure on schools, hospitals, social security budgets.
So when some people express concerns that the high levels of uncontrolled migration have made life worse for them by causing a resource shortfall......they were indeed correct to some extent. Perhaps these concerns should have been listened to rather than labelling them all as racists and easily led sheep.
So when some people express concerns that the high levels of uncontrolled migration have made life worse for them by causing a resource shortfall......they were indeed correct to some extent. Perhaps these concerns should have been listened to rather than labelling them all as racists and easily led sheep.
Also should we be judging the contribution of people purely on the basis of how much tax they pay?
24 October 2018, 09:47 AM
#3573
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You have to get to the top 40 per cent before you can claim to be a net contributor. Households in the fourth quintile pay £4,113 more in tax than they take out, while the top 20 per cent of earners pay a whopping £20,125 more in than they get back.The UK tax and spend is designed to be 'progressive', with those at the bottom get more from the state than those at the top, but the CPS say that the trend has accelerated in the last decade. so anyone including not in the top 40% is taking out more than they put in,
You need to earn around 40k before you become a net contributor to the economy.
You need to earn around 40k before you become a net contributor to the economy.
The problem with your argument is you assume all immigrants are in the lowest quitile, are chronically ill, have 15 kids who are also ill, import a wife who doesn't work and then retires in the UK. That is simply not the case, many immigrants, particularly EU immigrants are in the highest quintile, working in the city or scientific research or doctors, many are single, don't have kids and are perfectly healthy, and a great many will chose to return home before they retire (who the f. would want to retire in the UK?). Many of the lowest paid immigrants are seasonal workers who actually only come over for the picking season and then return home or elsewhere for the rest of the year - I've met people who work in the UK in in the spring/summer, then come picking apples and grapes here in Germany in the autumn, before heading to Spain to pick oranges in the winter.
The fact is, there are many studies that all show the contribution of immigrants to the EU is higher than that of British people, in particular EU migrants! According to this article £2300 per annum more:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...BBNuuid?dpir=1
If you ask if I'm happy to have uncontrolled EU migration - yes I am! Firstly, it works both ways! There are many Brits working all over the EU and not to mention all those who chose to retire in sunnier climes such as Spain or maybe France (Alcazar?)! All possible due to freedom of movement. If you think its a good thing that Brits are free to work or retire abroad, then you have to accept that other people can come and work or retire (if they're that stupid) in the UK. Secondly, migration is a simple fact of life, its been going on for millennia! If you have a choice of where people come from, then I would much prefer people from the EU than from further afield. Given more immigrants are arriving from non-EU countries than EU countries, there is no need to restrict EU migrants while there is plenty of scope to reduce immigration from non-EU countries if a reduction in immigration is truly needed/desired.
Yes the UK has many, many serious problems and I completely understand why people are angry and want change. I was once angry and wanted change, so I made a change and left! The simple fact is, immigration is an easy scapegoat to blame all the problems on. Yes, immigration puts stresses on the public services, as does a sudden domestic population surge such as the baby-boom. If the public services are in good shape, then the stresses of sudden population surges can be easily counteracted - look at Germany and Sweden over the last few years! The real problem in the UK is decades of underfunding to the vital public services and any surges can cause collapse! Ask yourself why this is only the case in the UK? Many other EU countries are experiencing high immigration, yet most are taking it well within their stride! This isn't a problem of EU membership or freedom of movement - this is a British problem, caused by British governments and the pro-capitalist, low-tax, low-investment agenda. Of course, nobody wants to blame themselves when they can just blame Johnny Foreigner!
24 October 2018, 10:40 AM
#3576
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If you refuse to work then your benefits are eitehr cut or stopped, simples.
24 October 2018, 10:41 AM
#3577
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Yes, they want change! I think most remainers also want change! The problem is, the change they are getting is not the change they ultimately want!
24 October 2018, 11:24 AM
#3578
I fully accept that the vote as was won by Leave, but do not try to advocate that a majority of the UK population wanted, or want to, leave, you simply do not know. The true is same the other way, of course.
However, interestingly, I see Mr Farage ran a poll on either Twitter of FB to see how people would vote now if the same question was asked, and it came out 70% in favour of remain. No wonder the Wrexiteers are so against another referendum!
I don't think you'd see the same voter apathy a second time round.
24 October 2018, 12:37 PM
#3580
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24 October 2018, 12:54 PM
#3581
Scooby Regular
Hi DD
Hope you are well.
I briefly read all that and yes it makes complete sense and I agree with 99% of it.
However the question I'd like answered is that if we remain within a non reformed EU how do we control the free movement of people? Or do you feel that there is no need to?
My personal opinion is that we do need to. I would much rather stay in the EU but I don't think our immigration levels are sustainable. As you know I'm not indigenous to the UK so this opinion isn't about racism.
I'm not sure where you live but I'm in London and the massive influx of people (EU and non EU) has put massive pressure on the NHS, housing, school places and downward pressure on unskilled/semi skilled wages. That's the objective stuff, and then there is the subjective stuff ie a massive change to our social structure, it's easy to lable this as xenophobia but people need time to adjust to these huge changes and they haven't been given any.
Many people will start screaming that migrants are net contributers but I'm very sceptical of that as a blanket statement. The devil is in the detail. You cannot tell me that a migrant on £20k a year (though hard working and honest) is a net contributer, impossible. Virtually zero tax being paid and has access to school places, NHS, child benefit, housing benefit etc.
Some will scream that we need low skilled migrants to do the jobs that the indigenous population shun ie the Care industry. There is a solution to this, increase the wages and more people might do it. Right now we as tax payers are subsidising these industries anyway as we fund the housing benefit etc required to allow these low paid migrant workers to have something that resembles a standard of living.
I'm rambling at bit but my point is that I agree with most of the economic arguments made for not leaving, but what is the solution to free movement and our rapidly expanding population with scarce resources?
Yes we need migration for skills shortages and tax receipts in the future to fund our aging population; but this will come with a selective migration policy not a free for all.
Hope you are well.
I briefly read all that and yes it makes complete sense and I agree with 99% of it.
However the question I'd like answered is that if we remain within a non reformed EU how do we control the free movement of people? Or do you feel that there is no need to?
My personal opinion is that we do need to. I would much rather stay in the EU but I don't think our immigration levels are sustainable. As you know I'm not indigenous to the UK so this opinion isn't about racism.
I'm not sure where you live but I'm in London and the massive influx of people (EU and non EU) has put massive pressure on the NHS, housing, school places and downward pressure on unskilled/semi skilled wages. That's the objective stuff, and then there is the subjective stuff ie a massive change to our social structure, it's easy to lable this as xenophobia but people need time to adjust to these huge changes and they haven't been given any.
Many people will start screaming that migrants are net contributers but I'm very sceptical of that as a blanket statement. The devil is in the detail. You cannot tell me that a migrant on £20k a year (though hard working and honest) is a net contributer, impossible. Virtually zero tax being paid and has access to school places, NHS, child benefit, housing benefit etc.
Some will scream that we need low skilled migrants to do the jobs that the indigenous population shun ie the Care industry. There is a solution to this, increase the wages and more people might do it. Right now we as tax payers are subsidising these industries anyway as we fund the housing benefit etc required to allow these low paid migrant workers to have something that resembles a standard of living.
I'm rambling at bit but my point is that I agree with most of the economic arguments made for not leaving, but what is the solution to free movement and our rapidly expanding population with scarce resources?
Yes we need migration for skills shortages and tax receipts in the future to fund our aging population; but this will come with a selective migration policy not a free for all.
All good thanks - you?
Not on here much these days for reasons that you'll understand.
I'm in Scotland so the impact of immigration is far lower. In fact the more rural areas often rely on immigrant workers making up the gaps in the younger end of the workforce as the indigenous youth seek greener grass elsewhere. Perhaps one of the many reasons that Scotland was so pro remain (68% of those voting if i recall correctly) But then so was London, which is from where you are basing your own experiences.
My own thoughts are that the system was buggered long before any added effects of free movement immigration - if indeed those effects are objective rather than just subjective. But my overriding position is that nothing is perfect. There will always be problems with some part of it and they cannot always be fixed.
The Brexit campaign promised fixes for the unfixable. And sadly the majority of English and Welsh referendum voters bought into that. Its really that simple.
There clearly are problems with migrants in an open border system. But the upsides outweigh the downsides. Or perhaps more accurately now, the downsides of closing those borders via the Brexit we are now facing (and lets be honest, it was never going to work out as the Brexit campaign would have had those voters believe) are significantly worse than the status quo.
As I've said before, this is the one time I've ever been quite so hopeful of being proven to be completely wrong.
24 October 2018, 01:52 PM
#3582
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But to an extent it is also the fault of individuals, they seem happy to sponge of the government ratehr than to get off their ar5e5 and benefit society. I personally would be embarrased to be a habitual benefit cheat.
24 October 2018, 04:06 PM
#3583
And of course it's the supreme irony that plenty of Brexiteers think that immigrants are bleeding us dry and coming on benefits holidays, but in reality they are usually harder working than the indigenous population, and that the real scroungers are the indigenous population!
Even then, benefit fraud costs a fraction of the money lost to tax avoidance, and that's done by the rich and large corporations. Still, those pesky immigrants, eh, ruining this country?
I suppose you must have a good laugh with your mates in Germany over this?
Even then, benefit fraud costs a fraction of the money lost to tax avoidance, and that's done by the rich and large corporations. Still, those pesky immigrants, eh, ruining this country?
I suppose you must have a good laugh with your mates in Germany over this?
24 October 2018, 04:39 PM
#3584
Scooby Senior
And of course it's the supreme irony that plenty of Brexiteers think that immigrants are bleeding us dry and coming on benefits holidays, but in reality they are usually harder working than the indigenous population, and that the real scroungers are the indigenous population!
Even then, benefit fraud costs a fraction of the money lost to tax avoidance, and that's done by the rich and large corporations. Still, those pesky immigrants, eh, ruining this country?
I suppose you must have a good laugh with your mates in Germany over this?
Even then, benefit fraud costs a fraction of the money lost to tax avoidance, and that's done by the rich and large corporations. Still, those pesky immigrants, eh, ruining this country?
I suppose you must have a good laugh with your mates in Germany over this?
24 October 2018, 04:59 PM
#3585
No, they did not. A majority of the people who bothered to vote voted to leave the EU.
I fully accept that the vote as was won by Leave, but do not try to advocate that a majority of the UK population wanted, or want to, leave, you simply do not know. The true is same the other way, of course.
However, interestingly, I see Mr Farage ran a poll on either Twitter of FB to see how people would vote now if the same question was asked, and it came out 70% in favour of remain. No wonder the Wrexiteers are so against another referendum!
I don't think you'd see the same voter apathy a second time round.
I fully accept that the vote as was won by Leave, but do not try to advocate that a majority of the UK population wanted, or want to, leave, you simply do not know. The true is same the other way, of course.
However, interestingly, I see Mr Farage ran a poll on either Twitter of FB to see how people would vote now if the same question was asked, and it came out 70% in favour of remain. No wonder the Wrexiteers are so against another referendum!
I don't think you'd see the same voter apathy a second time round.
The majority of people who voted, voted to leave tbe EU. Just the same as a general election, if you didnt vote or voted for the party that didnt win, don't complain, accept it and move on.
No you'd see more voting leave
24 October 2018, 05:02 PM
#3586
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24 October 2018, 06:01 PM
#3587
Shock, horror, many immigrants aren't net contributers at all and hence have increased pressure on schools, hospitals, social security budgets.
So when some people express concerns that the high levels of uncontrolled migration have made life worse for them by causing a resource shortfall......they were indeed correct to some extent. Perhaps these concerns should have been listened to rather than labelling them all as racists and easily led sheep.
So when some people express concerns that the high levels of uncontrolled migration have made life worse for them by causing a resource shortfall......they were indeed correct to some extent. Perhaps these concerns should have been listened to rather than labelling them all as racists and easily led sheep.
24 October 2018, 06:26 PM
#3588
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and just to make matters worse, the working eu one's can get child benefit, so if on min wage with 2or more kids they will get more than they pay in tax and ni, so who gains there then oh i know the landlord who they work for and the local supermarket, ask anyone on here from cornwall there is a farmer with loads of caravans in a field. housing them during the summer while they work for him, nice earner if you can get it
How many have kids?
Who would pick the crops if they weren't there?
Do you really think things through?
24 October 2018, 07:44 PM
#3592
and just to make matters worse, the working eu one's can get child benefit, so if on min wage with 2or more kids they will get more than they pay in tax and ni, so who gains there then oh i know the landlord who they work for and the local supermarket, ask anyone on here from cornwall there is a farmer with loads of caravans in a field. housing them during the summer while they work for him, nice earner if you can get it
Even so, they still are net contributors, even if some of them are getting benefits which you resent so much.
24 October 2018, 10:52 PM
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24 October 2018, 11:38 PM
#3596
That table is an average of society, so includes all British people as well as immigrants, so you can't really extrapolate any relevant information regarding the cost of immigrants to society as there is zero information about what percentage of immigrants belong to which quintile. Also relevant, is what is the relation of benefits claims for immigrants compared to the average Brit.
The problem with your argument is you assume all immigrants are in the lowest quitile, are chronically ill, have 15 kids who are also ill, import a wife who doesn't work and then retires in the UK. That is simply not the case, many immigrants, particularly EU immigrants are in the highest quintile, working in the city or scientific research or doctors, many are single, don't have kids and are perfectly healthy, and a great many will chose to return home before they retire (who the f. would want to retire in the UK?). Many of the lowest paid immigrants are seasonal workers who actually only come over for the picking season and then return home or elsewhere for the rest of the year - I've met people who work in the UK in in the spring/summer, then come picking apples and grapes here in Germany in the autumn, before heading to Spain to pick oranges in the winter.
The fact is, there are many studies that all show the contribution of immigrants to the EU is higher than that of British people, in particular EU migrants! According to this article £2300 per annum more:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...BBNuuid?dpir=1
If you ask if I'm happy to have uncontrolled EU migration - yes I am! Firstly, it works both ways! There are many Brits working all over the EU and not to mention all those who chose to retire in sunnier climes such as Spain or maybe France (Alcazar?)! All possible due to freedom of movement. If you think its a good thing that Brits are free to work or retire abroad, then you have to accept that other people can come and work or retire (if they're that stupid) in the UK. Secondly, migration is a simple fact of life, its been going on for millennia! If you have a choice of where people come from, then I would much prefer people from the EU than from further afield. Given more immigrants are arriving from non-EU countries than EU countries, there is no need to restrict EU migrants while there is plenty of scope to reduce immigration from non-EU countries if a reduction in immigration is truly needed/desired.
Yes the UK has many, many serious problems and I completely understand why people are angry and want change. I was once angry and wanted change, so I made a change and left! The simple fact is, immigration is an easy scapegoat to blame all the problems on. Yes, immigration puts stresses on the public services, as does a sudden domestic population surge such as the baby-boom. If the public services are in good shape, then the stresses of sudden population surges can be easily counteracted - look at Germany and Sweden over the last few years! The real problem in the UK is decades of underfunding to the vital public services and any surges can cause collapse! Ask yourself why this is only the case in the UK? Many other EU countries are experiencing high immigration, yet most are taking it well within their stride! This isn't a problem of EU membership or freedom of movement - this is a British problem, caused by British governments and the pro-capitalist, low-tax, low-investment agenda. Of course, nobody wants to blame themselves when they can just blame Johnny Foreigner!
The problem with your argument is you assume all immigrants are in the lowest quitile, are chronically ill, have 15 kids who are also ill, import a wife who doesn't work and then retires in the UK. That is simply not the case, many immigrants, particularly EU immigrants are in the highest quintile, working in the city or scientific research or doctors, many are single, don't have kids and are perfectly healthy, and a great many will chose to return home before they retire (who the f. would want to retire in the UK?). Many of the lowest paid immigrants are seasonal workers who actually only come over for the picking season and then return home or elsewhere for the rest of the year - I've met people who work in the UK in in the spring/summer, then come picking apples and grapes here in Germany in the autumn, before heading to Spain to pick oranges in the winter.
The fact is, there are many studies that all show the contribution of immigrants to the EU is higher than that of British people, in particular EU migrants! According to this article £2300 per annum more:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...BBNuuid?dpir=1
If you ask if I'm happy to have uncontrolled EU migration - yes I am! Firstly, it works both ways! There are many Brits working all over the EU and not to mention all those who chose to retire in sunnier climes such as Spain or maybe France (Alcazar?)! All possible due to freedom of movement. If you think its a good thing that Brits are free to work or retire abroad, then you have to accept that other people can come and work or retire (if they're that stupid) in the UK. Secondly, migration is a simple fact of life, its been going on for millennia! If you have a choice of where people come from, then I would much prefer people from the EU than from further afield. Given more immigrants are arriving from non-EU countries than EU countries, there is no need to restrict EU migrants while there is plenty of scope to reduce immigration from non-EU countries if a reduction in immigration is truly needed/desired.
Yes the UK has many, many serious problems and I completely understand why people are angry and want change. I was once angry and wanted change, so I made a change and left! The simple fact is, immigration is an easy scapegoat to blame all the problems on. Yes, immigration puts stresses on the public services, as does a sudden domestic population surge such as the baby-boom. If the public services are in good shape, then the stresses of sudden population surges can be easily counteracted - look at Germany and Sweden over the last few years! The real problem in the UK is decades of underfunding to the vital public services and any surges can cause collapse! Ask yourself why this is only the case in the UK? Many other EU countries are experiencing high immigration, yet most are taking it well within their stride! This isn't a problem of EU membership or freedom of movement - this is a British problem, caused by British governments and the pro-capitalist, low-tax, low-investment agenda. Of course, nobody wants to blame themselves when they can just blame Johnny Foreigner!
25 October 2018, 12:07 AM
#3597
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Lol , he don't care for competition
After brexit they'll * get special dispensation for summer pickers
. Come over here snaffle up all his strawberries
After brexit they'll * get special dispensation for summer pickers
. Come over here snaffle up all his strawberries
Last edited by dpb; 25 October 2018 at 09:38 AM. Reason: * beastly wealthy farmers
25 October 2018, 09:07 AM
#3598
Scooby Senior
Legal immigrants have to have a job before they are let into the country. Illegal immigrants who claim asylum, first receive a basic benefit while their application is processed and they are not allowed to work or leave Germany. Over 50% (I don't know the exact figure) are deported, the successful applicants get residency and then lose their benefits and have to work. During this time, they will have a Schengen visa and can travel within the Schengen zone but can't travel to the UK. They will have a residency permit which will run between 6 months and 5 years depending on their status, each time it expires, their residency will be re-assessed and they could also be sent home. Only after 7 years, can they apply for German nationality for which they have to meet a number of requirements and pass a language and an integration test and most likely surrender their previous nationality. Only then, are they free to travel to the UK, as a German/EU citizen, and theoretically could go and work in the UK, but that is very unlikely as they have spent over 7 years working and integrating into Germany and are most likely happy with their current situation. This idea that all these migrants ultimately want to go to the UK and only use other countries as a back door is complete garbage and pure paranoia. If they wanted to go to the UK, they would have gone there in the first place rather than going to Germany or whatever other country they first settle in.
The UK benefits system is a complete joke and just invites abuse and nobody is abusing it more than the Brits themselves! Leaving the EU is not going to sort out benefits abuse!