Petem95

I'm tolerant of liberals, and respect anyones opinion and viewpoint, but many liberals are not tolerant of other peoples views and that's why conservative views are being forced underground - and the polls got it so wrong. People are in many cases afraid to express their opinion because they don't want to suffer violence and intimidation from liberals.

Globalism is killing the middle classes and this is one of the root causes of all this, but this is a policy being pushed by liberals. You've got more poor people willing to do the jobs that the current middle class do, but for less. This is obviously bad for the middle classes whose job sectors are affected by this. The elite gain because their profits increase with all the cheap labour.

hodgy0_2

the irony here of course is that Trump is part of the elite

born to a multimillionaire, had his hotels built by cheap foreign labour and has all his merchandise made in China and Indonesia

Petem95

Yeah I'm aware of that, but you can also look at it that he can't be bought. Look at Clinton with money from the bankers, big business, Saudi - she can be.

It's a massive shake up to the establishment. Look at all the global leaders who've been talking **** about him - now all going cap in hand and offering congrats as they're worried about trade.

Could be a good result for the UK as Obama clearly had a strong dislike for the UK - Trump has often mentioned Brexit and said we'll be first in the queue for trade deals.

I think whats really ironic is Trump could really boost the middle class at the expense of the elites, so whereas inequality has increased under Obama, it may decrease under Trump. I guess we'll be able to judge in 4 years.

hodgy0_2

indeed

Martin2005

Income inequality has been increasing in the US since 'Reagonomics' (where it step changed).

Trump's tax plans look highly like to exacerbate this. So hardly a liberal thing.

There isn't going to a queue for new trade deals, there will be a queue of deals Trump wants to renegotiate. So God only knows where that leaves the UK. Also surely you didn't actually believe him on that?

All this crap about conservative views being supressed, the facts simply are at odds with you on this. There are media channels in the US basically cheerleading for Trump.

And casually regurgitating republican smears on the Clinton's kind of demonstrates that you're not actually interested in the facts.

The bottom line is Liberal/progressive values are fundamentally good and decent.

Trump's views are fundamentally bad.

This schizm in Western politics will continue until we find a better way to execute progressive economics.

The politics of 'we' are still far superior the politics of 'me'

To describe the US political environment as liberal is laughable btw

Petem95

You sound like a bitter liberal!.. oh wait a minute!

I agree with you that liberal/progressive values are at least in part decent, but they're also usually fantasy and totally unsustainable from an economic standpoint.

It's time for realism, and getting things on a fair and sustainable path, and clearly that doesn't confirm to liberal fantasies. Western countries are living so far beyond their means it's just crazy, we've got the chance to change things while we can, or keep our heads in the sand and hit a brick wall.

Martin2005

But the US isn't remotely liberal. So I don't get your argument

hodgy0_2

if this was the case one would expect countries that broadly follow them (liberal/progressive values) to be basket cases

countries like Canada, or closer to home the Northern European countries

Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Holland

but we don't do we

the countries that have follow the neoliberal Chicago school - aka America and the UK

suffer from a low wage, low skill, low aspiration economy based on short term / part time or zero hours contracts or manufactured "self employment" that all mask the true un and under employment figures - inevitable leading to massive wealth inequality, failing social mobility, and polarised society


you see all of the above in the UK and the US (hence Brexit and Trump) but nowhere near as much in the liberal/progressive countries listed above

dpb

More people actually voted for Hillary , could be a million more at the end of counting

kippers/nigel would be up in arms if it were here

instead hes gunning for a job under trump

hodgy0_2

anyone who is interested what a US wide application of Trumps economic polices should google something along the lines of

Senator Brownback Kansas experiment

Petem95

Oh yeah and look where the liberal policies are getting them?! Germany is a happy place right now since the open door policy on refugees. I guess you're willing to ignore the numerous terrorist attacks, increases in violent crime and rape, sharp rise in support of anti-immigrant AfD party, yeah real liberal success story.

Sweden - suffering in a similar way with the 2nd highest rape statistics in the world, and increase that goes hand in hand with increasing immigration. Some crazy liberal policies like Police encouraged to keep a lid on reporting migrant crime, numerous 'ghetto' areas around big cities like Stockholm, intimidation of non-liberal voters as you can legally check who people have voted for. Another prime candidate for a liberal backlash in the coming years with the far right.

Holland - Gert Welders 'Party for freedom', which wants to ban all mosques, is now the biggest party in Holland. Again the result of liberal policies.

Norway - Well they've got a massive sovereign wealth fund built up while oil prices were high, but now that they sell oil at a loss and have been hit with a refugee influx this is dwindling, so this isn't a sustainable situation, and liberal policies aren't generally sustainable.

Liberal policies are just fantasy, and if you try and force them on the population you just sow the seeds of a far-right backlash.

dpb

So what is your answer for us petem95

Presumably you want same policies trump is advocating ?

Turbohot

Bonnie Greer said on the Sky press preview that Trump, after winning, thought that he was to serve only for two years. One of his loyals pointed out to him that 'it's actually a four-year long gig, mate!' I had heard the speech bit, in which he said that he would be the president for 'two, four or perhaps even eight years'. I take this as him not being so sure whether he would be able to handle the full term, or would he get thrown out. 'Brexit times ten' seems to know his shortcomings hence unsure about how long he'll last. It's like me winning an Airbus 350 to fly around, but feeling all confuzzled once in the pilot seat. The look of the control panel would freak me out and make me shorten my span inside the cockpit.

Can't wait to see how he operates, once he's all set in his new White House office. He may do half ok with his 'outside the box' approach.

hodgy0_2

mmmm who/what caused all those refugees from Iraq /Syria / North Africa


mmmm who do you think?

those swedish /German interventionist bstards -- mmm no don't think so

anyone take a guess?

hodgy0_2

yes you've got me there

those non liberal none progressive Saudi's / Iraqi's / Pakistanis have virtually no rapes at all

just look at the stats

wow your good

lol

SJ_Skyline

I had this same conversation yesterday, albeit taking the point of non-mainstream opinion being shouted down. Sadly the response was one of if you don't agree with me then you're an idiot. I guess the point was proved from my perspective.

I'm coining the phrase "Shouty Lefty Syndrome" for it.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

LOL, Sj, I believe the shouty lefty syndrome phrase has already been coined long before the phrase "shouty blue haired lady" etc.

It's an interesting twist in modern society where IMO the vocal minority used to be the facists and extreme right. Historically in the UK the vocal majority was the unionists, but gradually that step changed into a equal left/right split and now more of a vocal minority. But still very vocal.

Like facists, they've always ignored or demonised people's differing political views, but these days their voice carries a lot less weight.

IMHO....< --- respect it

hodgy0_2

Yes it is a convenient meme, like "remouners" when you run out of arguments

hodgy0_2

For some perspective

It is the Horse Head and Flame Nebulae in Orion in very deep NII narrow band.

Large image btw

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co.../HHneb_NII.jpg

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Doesn't matter who caused it, that's past.

it's how you deal with it.

JTaylor

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Steady on, 'dealing with it' is rebel talk on Snet!

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Are you lot still whining about it

Its like a combined scene of Monty Python and a wailing women lurching from one imaginary disaster to the next

Nothing you can do about it. Get on with your life

hodgy0_2

the key to defining the future is understanding the past

and off course you dn't want to talk about who caused it - because it was UK and the US - it was us

we stirred the **** jar, and now the Danes / Swedes et al have to lick the stick

and you still give them grief and say their economic model is flawed -- lol

Donald J Trump, an inherited billionaire who outsources his manufacturing to china/Indonesia , employed armies of foreign labour to build his hotels, has been bankrupt at least once

is NOT the future

you think he is - great

we will know in about 4 to 5 years time

dpb

The easy was to Deal with these things is to stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes , pretend its nothing do with you

Paben

iTrader: (5)

And the hard way is to run around like a decapitated chicken, clucking bitterly about how dreadful it all is, kidding yourself you can do something about it.

dpb

I think it was Petem who derailed the thread

SJ_Skyline

I guess the difference is we're used to it here, and by that I mean we've all been bitching at each other for the last 14 years on SN about one thing or another with very little substantiate fact and a whole lot of gusto. And when somebody takes the time to post something that is fact-based and well thought out it's a case of TLDR, bored now...

Geezer

This just doesn't make sense. You say liberal policies don't work, which leads to right wing policies (which, I am assuming, you see as bad?), so what's the answer, right policies all round?


It wasn't liberal policies that caused the rise of IS/Al Qaeda etc.


It does matter who caused it, if only to illustrate why you should not repeat those mistakes.


How you deal with it can exacerbate those mistakes, which is what Trump is probably going to do.


In 4 years time, we shall know! I suspect it will be a shorter time frame time until we have a pretty good inkling

hodgy0_2

Trump's promised to sort ISIS out - FACT

along with curing cancer and free ice cream to all under 11's

so all good