Come on Obama - time to get off the fence
30 September 2016, 09:50 AM
#31
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but it is not really that simple
yes Russia vetoes resolutions/actions that go against its national interest, but then so to the UK and the US
It is the problem with collective decision making that requires a unanimous vote
the UN is not perfect but it is the best we have
here is a list of vetoes
http://research.un.org/en/docs/sc/quick
a quick scan with the Mark 1 eye ball suggest the USA has done most vetoing
yes Russia vetoes resolutions/actions that go against its national interest, but then so to the UK and the US
It is the problem with collective decision making that requires a unanimous vote
the UN is not perfect but it is the best we have
here is a list of vetoes
http://research.un.org/en/docs/sc/quick
a quick scan with the Mark 1 eye ball suggest the USA has done most vetoing
30 September 2016, 11:22 AM
#32
Looks like Putin is winning this proxy war and the West can't do anything about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37507207
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-is-paying-off
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37507207
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-is-paying-off
30 September 2016, 12:13 PM
#33
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I know it's a lot more complicated but it's the basic argument and principle. The organisation and it's effectiveness has to come into question when they can do nothing against one of their permanent members committing war crimes, the very thing the UN is there to stop.
Correct. The whole thing is farcical. Russia is just p,issing over every one - take shooting down that plane over Ukraine as just another example.
The UN should ask US and any member states with some bottle to protect the convoys with air support and take out any choppers or jets that pose a threat. No more procrastination please.
david
30 September 2016, 12:23 PM
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Looks like Putin is winning this proxy war and the West can't do anything about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37507207
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-is-paying-off
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37507207
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-is-paying-off
30 September 2016, 12:36 PM
#35
This war has dragged on for so long and displaced millions of people with many hundreds of thousands dead and injured. I think the West's involvement now only serves to drag the conflict for years to come, so the only solution is for the West to pull back it's involvement and let Putin and Assad get on with defeating the rebels/ISIS and let Syria rebuild its country and for the refugees return and stem the flow of refugees and asylum seekers into Europe.
30 September 2016, 01:27 PM
#36
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This war has dragged on for so long and displaced millions of people with many hundreds of thousands dead and injured. I think the West's involvement now only serves to drag the conflict for years to come, so the only solution is for the West to pull back it's involvement and let Putin and Assad get on with defeating the rebels/ISIS and let Syria rebuild its country and for the refugees return and stem the flow of refugees and asylum seekers into Europe.
Thus giving ISIS a free hand to recruit, train and get ready to take Europe by storm? d
30 September 2016, 01:57 PM
#37
If you look back only few years of so, I think what you'll find is that it was the intervention by the West in the Middle East that created the power vacuum that allowed ISIS to gain prominence. When Gaddafi and Sadam Hussein were in power, they kept extremists factions under control. Removing al-Assad forcefully by the West will only see history repeat itself. If anything, it is the West who are supporting the rebels who are made up of both moderate and extremists fighting against the Syrian army.
30 September 2016, 02:40 PM
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If you look back only few years of so, I think what you'll find is that it was the intervention by the West in the Middle East that created the power vacuum that allowed ISIS to gain prominence. When Gaddafi and Sadam Hussein were in power, they kept extremists factions under control. Removing al-Assad forcefully by the West will only see history repeat itself. If anything, it is the West who are supporting the rebels who are made up of both moderate and extremists fighting against the Syrian army.
Well I won't disagree with that but note I haven't been suggesting regime change just protection to the aid convoys under UN instructions. This would be justified as WAR CRIMES are taking place daily. Bombing hospitals is about as evil as it gets.
d
30 September 2016, 02:50 PM
#39
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This war has dragged on for so long and displaced millions of people with many hundreds of thousands dead and injured. I think the West's involvement now only serves to drag the conflict for years to come, so the only solution is for the West to pull back it's involvement and let Putin and Assad get on with defeating the rebels/ISIS and let Syria rebuild its country and for the refugees return and stem the flow of refugees and asylum seekers into Europe.
this maybe the best "worst" approach
30 September 2016, 02:58 PM
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30 September 2016, 04:34 PM
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30 September 2016, 04:42 PM
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30 September 2016, 05:26 PM
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30 September 2016, 09:09 PM
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Right now I would take what ever option came up to get rid of Putin, I couldn't despise that lunatic any more if I tried. He is worse than Kim Jong Un with his utter disrespect for the rest of the World and does exactly as he pleases and gets away with it which is what makes him worse. At least North Korea is heavily sanctioned and aren't attacking other parts of the World at will (yet).
And here is another point on Russia and it's permanent member status - what agreement/backing exactly did it get from the UN to go and support Assad? Absolutely none. So again it couldn't give a flying **** about the UN and it's membership other than it gets to veto anything that stands in it's way. Putin is simply taking the p!ss with his attitude and what he is getting away with. I bet we never see him at the Hague standing trial for war crimes as no one has the bollox to stand up to him.
30 September 2016, 09:18 PM
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30 September 2016, 10:10 PM
#46
Russia bombing hospitals and aid convoys is no better than what ISIS have committed so I would hardly say they are the 'better' option.
Right now I would take what ever option came up to get rid of Putin, I couldn't despise that lunatic any more if I tried. He is worse than Kim Jong Un with his utter disrespect for the rest of the World and does exactly as he pleases and gets away with it which is what makes him worse. At least North Korea is heavily sanctioned and aren't attacking other parts of the World at will (yet).
And here is another point on Russia and it's permanent member status - what agreement/backing exactly did it get from the UN to go and support Assad? Absolutely none. So again it couldn't give a flying **** about the UN and it's membership other than it gets to veto anything that stands in it's way. Putin is simply taking the p!ss with his attitude and what he is getting away with. I bet we never see him at the Hague standing trial for war crimes as no one has the bollox to stand up to him.
Right now I would take what ever option came up to get rid of Putin, I couldn't despise that lunatic any more if I tried. He is worse than Kim Jong Un with his utter disrespect for the rest of the World and does exactly as he pleases and gets away with it which is what makes him worse. At least North Korea is heavily sanctioned and aren't attacking other parts of the World at will (yet).
And here is another point on Russia and it's permanent member status - what agreement/backing exactly did it get from the UN to go and support Assad? Absolutely none. So again it couldn't give a flying **** about the UN and it's membership other than it gets to veto anything that stands in it's way. Putin is simply taking the p!ss with his attitude and what he is getting away with. I bet we never see him at the Hague standing trial for war crimes as no one has the bollox to stand up to him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...876_story.html
Last edited by jonc; 30 September 2016 at 10:14 PM.
04 October 2016, 07:24 PM
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The locals just love a bit of a fight , as far as I can tell
its not even like theyre even signing up for a meal like they would in Africa eg - where some even more horrific things take place
some subtly different strain of religion is enough
its not even like theyre even signing up for a meal like they would in Africa eg - where some even more horrific things take place
some subtly different strain of religion is enough
04 October 2016, 10:56 PM
#48
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The US and UK were no different in regards to the invasion of Iraq and UN backing. Also Allied forces have a veritable history of bombing and shelling civilian buildings and killing of civilians. Why are Russia involved? Syria is a close ally of Russia and also on the geo-political stage the West have a massive influence in the Middle East and I'm guessing Putin wants to restore Russia as a super power on par with the US and to address the balance in the Middle East.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...876_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...876_story.html
And please provide evidence of the US/UK deliberately bombing civilian hospitals and aid convoys.
So no Russia is not doing what the US/UK have already done, it is completely different.
And Russia supports Assad because they are selling huge quantities of arms to them and nothing is better for arms deals than a long drawn out war.
05 October 2016, 08:30 AM
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05 October 2016, 12:03 PM
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05 October 2016, 01:28 PM
#52
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I agree with that however Russia don't need to be involved and they certainly shouldn't be bombing hospitals and aid convoys and getting away with it. Help defeat ISIS that's what everyone should be aiming for but Russia isn't doing that.
05 October 2016, 01:37 PM
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05 October 2016, 01:52 PM
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And when they commit war crimes as they have done they should be brought to account for it. And if they go against the rest of the international community which they have done in supporting Assad then they also have to face the consequences. Which again brings the United Nations into disrepute as they are hardly anything but united when Russia acts with impunity and commits war crimes.
05 October 2016, 01:58 PM
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And when they commit war crimes as they have done they should be brought to account for it. And if they go against the rest of the international community which they have done in supporting Assad then they also have to face the consequences. Which again brings the United Nations into disrepute as they are hardly anything but united when Russia acts with impunity and commits war crimes.
05 October 2016, 02:00 PM
#56
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Also add to the fact Russia have also broken the Geneva Convention by bombing hospitals in Aleppo so what next then, chemical and biological weapons to start being used by Russian forces? If they break it once and no one acts then they are free to break it as much as they like.
05 October 2016, 02:03 PM
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Also add to the fact Russia have also broken the Geneva Convention by bombing hospitals in Aleppo so what next then, chemical and biological weapons to start being used by Russian forces? If they break it once and no one acts then they are free to break it as much as they like.
05 October 2016, 02:10 PM
#58
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If you are suggesting there isn't a solution then the United Nations and the Geneva Convention might as well be thrown in the bin as I type this out. There is no point in having rules if there is no way to enforce them.
The most effective way to hurt Russia going on previous evidence is by way of embargoes and sanctions and basically force the Russian population to start suffering under Putin's rule. He either has to back down against the international community or risk losing the support of his nation.
His normal response to this threat is to turn off the gas supply to Europe but it didn't work last time as everyone knows he needs that gas money to keep his finances afloat. That is one cut off his nose to spite his face he cannot afford.
Oh and he still needs to be brought to account over the illegal annexing of Crimea but that's another example of World leaders lacking any bollox in challenging him collectively over it.
The most effective way to hurt Russia going on previous evidence is by way of embargoes and sanctions and basically force the Russian population to start suffering under Putin's rule. He either has to back down against the international community or risk losing the support of his nation.
His normal response to this threat is to turn off the gas supply to Europe but it didn't work last time as everyone knows he needs that gas money to keep his finances afloat. That is one cut off his nose to spite his face he cannot afford.
Oh and he still needs to be brought to account over the illegal annexing of Crimea but that's another example of World leaders lacking any bollox in challenging him collectively over it.
05 October 2016, 02:20 PM
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If you are suggesting there isn't a solution then the United Nations and the Geneva Convention might as well be thrown in the bin as I type this out. There is no point in having rules if there is no way to enforce them.
The most effective way to hurt Russia going on previous evidence is by way of embargoes and sanctions and basically force the Russian population to start suffering under Putin's rule. He either has to back down against the international community or risk losing the support of his nation.
His normal response to this threat is to turn off the gas supply to Europe but it didn't work last time as everyone knows he needs that gas money to keep his finances afloat. That is one cut off his nose to spite his face he cannot afford.
Oh and he still needs to be brought to account over the illegal annexing of Crimea but that's another example of World leaders lacking any bollox in challenging him collectively over it.
The most effective way to hurt Russia going on previous evidence is by way of embargoes and sanctions and basically force the Russian population to start suffering under Putin's rule. He either has to back down against the international community or risk losing the support of his nation.
His normal response to this threat is to turn off the gas supply to Europe but it didn't work last time as everyone knows he needs that gas money to keep his finances afloat. That is one cut off his nose to spite his face he cannot afford.
Oh and he still needs to be brought to account over the illegal annexing of Crimea but that's another example of World leaders lacking any bollox in challenging him collectively over it.