Uncle Creepy

I remember that thread! Only on snet...

urban

iTrader: (1)

I'm talking recently though, not 11 years ago.
A hell of a lot has changed with Islamic nut jobs since then

JTaylor

Not really. The book and the man are the same and the process of radicalisation is unchanged. All that's happened is that the enemy has gained significant ground (partly through our own poor tactics) and would be jihadis have a more tangible state-like head to galvanise them. And they're not "nut jobs", they're carrying out the commands of their prophet as laid out in their book. Terrorism, from a certain viewpoint, is perfectly rational.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yep, some boy allegedly said such and such to some other boy, who then wrote it down in a book, and then they believe it to be true - nut jobs

Paben

iTrader: (5)

I wonder what that certain viewpoint might be? Difficult to believe that blowing themselves up along with any nearby innocents, while believing that a bunch of virgins will be welcoming them in Muslim Paradise, can in any way be classified as rational. I think 'nut jobs' describes them perfectly.

urban

iTrader: (1)

That's another very good point.
I was trying to stick with this "book", because all religions seems to have a "book" of some sort, its just that some books seem to have adverse nut job effects.

But I must say, I would like to "believe" in the bunch of virgins. That appeals to me

JTaylor

Just put yourself in their shoes for a moment. There are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. Let's say 90% are cultural Muslims and don't believe the Qur'an literally, that leaves 170 million Muslims who do. Let's say, for argument's sake, only 10% of that 170 million are willing to engage in offensive Jihad - that's 17 million potential beheaders and bombers and suicidal truck drivers. I recommend you try to understand this enemy. They're not chemically imbalanced, they're indoctrinated in to evil and they are legion.

urban

iTrader: (1)

My version of that

JTaylor

Don't misquote me. Please edit it back.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

And how will 'understanding' them help in any way? Are you suggesting we make allowances for their murderous tendencies and forgive them their trespasses, they know not what they do etc? Doesn't sound much of a strategy to me.

JTaylor

Well that's what a radical Christian would do, yes. Imagine if we'd turned the other cheek after 9/11. From a secular perspective (and you're far more qualified than I to comment on military strategy) I imagine understanding the enemy is paramount; as Sun Tzu said "if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." Bush didn't know his enemy and look where that landed us. It is folly to write these people off as simple "nut jobs". Go and read some Sayyid Qutb.

hodgy0_2

sorry this does not simply tally with the facts

the guy committing this atrocity was a nut job, so where Rigby's killer so was the Orlando shooter (and that just of the top of my head)

well the problem is the cheek we actually turned was not based on facts, not on what was true, but what "we" wanted to be true

15 out of the 17 911 hijackers were Saudi citizens, it was meticulously planned in Germany, by Saudi citizens and more than likely (according to a recently released pentagon report) funded from Saudi Arabia


what did we do, yes its obvious isn't it, the only rational thing we could do - invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and we wonder why we are in the ****

JTaylor

Doesn't sound like the work of nut jobs to me. Sounds more like an act of war. Sayyid Qutb (the Godfather of Islamism) was no "nut job". Just because some of those who've committed atrocities happen to have a history of mental illness doesn't mean that the jihadi movement as a whole is populated with nutters. Are you suggesting that all practicing Muslims who've chosen the offensive Jihadi path are insane? If you are, then you level the same accusation at Mohammad and subsequently all that follow him.

neil-h

Oh yeah?

hodgy0_2

yes that's all true


but it seems the quite a few recent ones that have been radicalised are mentally ill (to a greater or lesser extent)


but you make my point - yes a meticulously planned act of war, as you say

yet we then waged it back in a totally cack handed way undermining our own moral authority in the process

the "nutters in chief" at ISIS central must be laughing at us tbh

this whole "war on terror" is and was ill an conceived project, and we are reaping the whirlwind

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

This paints a rather simplistic, and to a considerable extent, factually incorrect picture of who it is that's carrying or plotting most of the terrorist attacks in the West now, vis-a-vis who was carrying them out 10 or 15 years ago. Back in 2004, when Al Qaeda were the go-to organization for any aspiring Jihadi, 60 percent of recruits had a university degree. Roll the clock forward to the present day and IS taking up the baton, and that's down to just 12 percent, with the remainder filled in with 25% unemployed, and a whopping 66% being known to police for petty or general criminality, and half of those having an actual criminal record. The core inspiration may well still be the same, but in terms of other more practical day-to-day factors that are attracting people to the movement, there are clearly some quite major differences.

(source - http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeit...peter-neumann/)

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

If we take the 90% who don't take the Qur'an literally, or hang onto every word in the Hadith, what prevents them from following the path taken by the 10% who fall into the 'nut job' category?


Both groups are promised 72 "Houris" in addition to their earth wife when they arrive in paradise, or "service from immortal boys" if homosexuality is their preference - if sexual gratification is what drives them to martyrdom, I would suggest their is something fundamentally flawed in their DNA in this case "nut-job" is a fitting description and chemical castration may well be our best defence.

JTaylor

Agreed.

JTaylor

As the global jihadi movement gains momentum, one would expect the kind of demographic you illustrate above. Prisons are a particularly fertile recruiting ground, as I'm sure you're aware. Disaffected? Yes. Criminals? Often. Nut-jobs? Sometimes. Sounds like the French Foreign Legion. My major point is and was that the roots and branches are the same. The philosophy, the theology and the methodology are each little changed.

urban

iTrader: (1)

That would be most disappointing, at least he has grenades, so he can blow himself up again