Judgement Day for Tony Blair
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From: K
I just hope we learn the lessons from Iraq, at the same time we need to allow our elected leaders to lead. Because Iraq was such an unmitigated disaster, doesn't mean that we cannot/should not intervene in future. The danger is we'll just sit on our hands, fearful of law suits and bad PR which could have equally grave consequences.
I watched Andrew Neil's programme last night, he asked a very interesting question of one of the contributors...
'We intervened and occupied Iraq, the result a bloody mess. We intervened in Libya and didn't occupy, the result, a bloody mess. We didn't intervene or occupy in Syria, the result, a bloody mess'.
'What lessons should we be learning, what are the implications for future UK foreign policy?'
It's a really tough one to answer
I watched Andrew Neil's programme last night, he asked a very interesting question of one of the contributors...
'We intervened and occupied Iraq, the result a bloody mess. We intervened in Libya and didn't occupy, the result, a bloody mess. We didn't intervene or occupy in Syria, the result, a bloody mess'.
'What lessons should we be learning, what are the implications for future UK foreign policy?'
It's a really tough one to answer
yes this is buying into the Blair narrative a little too much imo
he has attempted to portray the sectarian violence in Iraq (and chaos in the wider region) as some sort of continuum from the 80's 90's - well he would wouldn't he
as it neatly gets him off the hook
but it simply does not fit the facts - as a professor of Middle East history articulated responded
Last edited by hodgy0_2; Jul 8, 2016 at 11:53 AM.
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Blair is a bit like Marmite - you either love him or hate him, no middle ground.
The whole situation is too complicated for me to comprehend but I listen carefully to intelligent commentators and have more sympathy for Blair than I had before.
There are some aspects/****-ups that can't all be laid on Blair. In particular a mass of opinion that Saddam probably did have WMDs and there is an argument to say that Blair couldn't take the albeit tiny risk of one being delivered to London. The Joint Intelligence Committee must bear responsibility for giving **** advice. And the guys that ran the army should be shot for not providing our lads with decent equipment.
I heard a very sensible USA guy who had served 6 years in Iraq, the longest serving chap over there. He really knew his stuff and his main gripe was the real life knowledge of the battle was simply ignored in London/Washington. He did hold the Iraqis responsible for a lot of post Saddam problems as they did have a government in exile but just took the money and corrupted anything that moved. He gave Bush credit for changing USA personnel as the civil war escalated and this change reduced Iraqi deaths by up to 90%. But Obama then arrived and reversed the situation and made things a lot worse. UK paid a price but insignificant compared to USA with 4,000 deaths and 2-3 trillion dollars spent.
But will we ever learn - no. Except in a 100 years 20,000 deaths in one day in the Battle of the Somme is unthinkable now (Hiroshima aside) and even 200 UK deaths over a battle that takes years is not acceptable.
None of this diminishes my respect for our own soldiers that were killed or injured in Iraq.
Would Iraq be a better place if we/USA had just taken out Saddam and his evil family and left the corrupt Bathhurst Party in charge. Probably.
David
The whole situation is too complicated for me to comprehend but I listen carefully to intelligent commentators and have more sympathy for Blair than I had before.
There are some aspects/****-ups that can't all be laid on Blair. In particular a mass of opinion that Saddam probably did have WMDs and there is an argument to say that Blair couldn't take the albeit tiny risk of one being delivered to London. The Joint Intelligence Committee must bear responsibility for giving **** advice. And the guys that ran the army should be shot for not providing our lads with decent equipment.
I heard a very sensible USA guy who had served 6 years in Iraq, the longest serving chap over there. He really knew his stuff and his main gripe was the real life knowledge of the battle was simply ignored in London/Washington. He did hold the Iraqis responsible for a lot of post Saddam problems as they did have a government in exile but just took the money and corrupted anything that moved. He gave Bush credit for changing USA personnel as the civil war escalated and this change reduced Iraqi deaths by up to 90%. But Obama then arrived and reversed the situation and made things a lot worse. UK paid a price but insignificant compared to USA with 4,000 deaths and 2-3 trillion dollars spent.
But will we ever learn - no. Except in a 100 years 20,000 deaths in one day in the Battle of the Somme is unthinkable now (Hiroshima aside) and even 200 UK deaths over a battle that takes years is not acceptable.
None of this diminishes my respect for our own soldiers that were killed or injured in Iraq.
Would Iraq be a better place if we/USA had just taken out Saddam and his evil family and left the corrupt Bathhurst Party in charge. Probably.
David
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From: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
I just hope we learn the lessons from Iraq, at the same time we need to allow our elected leaders to lead. Because Iraq was such an unmitigated disaster, doesn't mean that we cannot/should not intervene in future. The danger is we'll just sit on our hands, fearful of law suits and bad PR which could have equally grave consequences.
I watched Andrew Neil's programme last night, he asked a very interesting question of one of the contributors...
'We intervened and occupied Iraq, the result a bloody mess. We intervened in Libya and didn't occupy, the result, a bloody mess. We didn't intervene or occupy in Syria, the result, a bloody mess'.
'What lessons should we be learning, what are the implications for future UK foreign policy?'
It's a really tough one to answer
I watched Andrew Neil's programme last night, he asked a very interesting question of one of the contributors...
'We intervened and occupied Iraq, the result a bloody mess. We intervened in Libya and didn't occupy, the result, a bloody mess. We didn't intervene or occupy in Syria, the result, a bloody mess'.
'What lessons should we be learning, what are the implications for future UK foreign policy?'
It's a really tough one to answer
I don't envy those making these decisions that's for sure...although we (the West) did intervene in Syria as the Arab Spring was the catalyst.
In this instance though all blame clearly lies at Blair's feet, I sincerely hope he is revealed for the psychopath he is and dealt with appropriately.
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yes this is buying into the Blair narrative a little too much imo
he has attempted to portray the sectarian violence in Iraq (and chaos in the wider region) as some sort of continuum from the 80's 90's - well he would wouldn't he
as it neatly gets him off the hook
but it simply does not fit the facts - as a professor of Middle East history articulated responded
he has attempted to portray the sectarian violence in Iraq (and chaos in the wider region) as some sort of continuum from the 80's 90's - well he would wouldn't he
as it neatly gets him off the hook
but it simply does not fit the facts - as a professor of Middle East history articulated responded
What is a fact though is that there is a centuries old struggle between Sunni and Shia. This was exacerbated by our invasion of Iraq. That struggle is played out across the Middle East and parts of Africa.
Fundamentalist Islam didn't appear the day after we invaded Iraq, it's been on collision course with us for 2 decades (at least).
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I don't envy those making these decisions that's for sure...although we (the West) did intervene in Syria as the Arab Spring was the catalyst.
In this instance though all blame clearly lies at Blair's feet, I sincerely hope he is revealed for the psychopath he is and dealt with appropriately.
In this instance though all blame clearly lies at Blair's feet, I sincerely hope he is revealed for the psychopath he is and dealt with appropriately.
We didn't intervene against Assad, when we probably should, I think that's was the point of AN's question. We are dropping bombs on ISIS, it's a slightly different point.
I wholly disagree with you on Blair being a psychopath, I think that's just wrong
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From: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
But the West was responsible (in a round about way) for the Arab Spring which kicked off the conflict in Syria.
Mo Molem said "the trouble with Tony is he thinks he is f**king Jesus".
This scale suggests I am right
The Hare Psychopathy Checklist – Revised
GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — A grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
PATHOLOGICAL LYING — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS — The use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.
LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.
SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
PARASITIC LIFESTYLE — An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS — Expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.
EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS — A variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
IRRESPONSIBILITY — Repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.
FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS — A failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.
MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY — Behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.
REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE — A revocation of probation or other conditional releases due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.
CRIMINAL VERSATILITY — A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.The word psychopath can be replaced with the word sociopath throughout this page. The meaning is very similar, if not the same.
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But the West was responsible (in a round about way) for the Arab Spring which kicked off the conflict in Syria.
Mo Molem said "the trouble with Tony is he thinks he is f**king Jesus".
This scale suggests I am right
The Hare Psychopathy Checklist – Revised
GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — A grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
PATHOLOGICAL LYING — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS — The use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.
LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.
SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
PARASITIC LIFESTYLE — An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS — Expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.
EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS — A variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
IRRESPONSIBILITY — Repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.
FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS — A failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.
MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY — Behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.
REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE — A revocation of probation or other conditional releases due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.
CRIMINAL VERSATILITY — A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.The word psychopath can be replaced with the word sociopath throughout this page. The meaning is very similar, if not the same.
Mo Molem said "the trouble with Tony is he thinks he is f**king Jesus".
This scale suggests I am right
The Hare Psychopathy Checklist – Revised
GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — A grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
PATHOLOGICAL LYING — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS — The use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.
LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.
SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
PARASITIC LIFESTYLE — An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS — Expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.
EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS — A variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
IRRESPONSIBILITY — Repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.
FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS — A failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.
MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY — Behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.
REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE — A revocation of probation or other conditional releases due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.
CRIMINAL VERSATILITY — A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.The word psychopath can be replaced with the word sociopath throughout this page. The meaning is very similar, if not the same.
This is just a list of things you want to associate with Blair, it's pretty meaningless to the discussion
'The West was responsible for the Arab Spring' - I certainly hope so, I certainly hope that progressives finally felt they had a chance to change the terms by which they were governed, I certainly hope that the Wests democratic values were inspirational to them.
Last edited by Martin2005; Jul 8, 2016 at 12:25 PM.
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From: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Agreed...sadly many thousands of innocent people will lose their lives in the name of progression and democracy.
Blair is deffo a psycho though.
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600,000 Americans died in their civil war in the name of ending slavery, was their cause right or wrong? Or would it of been right to accept slavery as a price worth paying to avoid a bloody war?
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I'm not arguing the need for change, merely pointing out the collateral damage is a terrible thing.
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That it is.
There is no clean solution to any of this. It will go on for years and years.
On a slightly different point...
Do you think any UK PM of the last 40 years would of come to any other conclusion than to stand with US over Iraq?
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From: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Yes, there will be a long tail...with global repercussions for many, many years to come with tens of thousands dead.
A tough one and one I'm not really qualified to answer; I don't know enough. I think Major would have resisted the urge though.
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see I told you I wasn't qualified to comment 
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From: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
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From: K
but I think that the problem with Blair (& Bush) is that they brought to much religion into the decision making
he saw the whole things through (religious) tinted spectacles
a case of massive cognitive bias that simply prevented him from challenging his preconceived view and ideas
the "facts" had to fit the theory
so in the sense that he deceived us all he also deceived himself
I think someone with less "baggage", viewing the whole vista, may have taken a different view and been prepared to stand up to bush
Ian Hislop made the very good point on QT last night - the claim that we now have the benefit of hindsight is a bogus one
I marched against the war, back in 2003 - all that has come to pass was clearly articulated
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well it is a good point
but I think that the problem with Blair (& Bush) is that they brought to much religion into the decision making
he saw the whole things through (religious) tinted spectacles
a case of massive cognitive bias that simply prevented him from challenging his preconceived view and ideas
the "facts" had to fit the theory
so in the sense that he deceived us all he also deceived himself
I think someone with less "baggage", viewing the whole vista, may have taken a different view and been prepared to stand up to bush
Ian Hislop made the very good point on QT last night - the claim that we now have the benefit of hindsight is a bogus one
I marched against the war, back in 2003 - all that has come to pass was clearly articulated
but I think that the problem with Blair (& Bush) is that they brought to much religion into the decision making
he saw the whole things through (religious) tinted spectacles
a case of massive cognitive bias that simply prevented him from challenging his preconceived view and ideas
the "facts" had to fit the theory
so in the sense that he deceived us all he also deceived himself
I think someone with less "baggage", viewing the whole vista, may have taken a different view and been prepared to stand up to bush
Ian Hislop made the very good point on QT last night - the claim that we now have the benefit of hindsight is a bogus one
I marched against the war, back in 2003 - all that has come to pass was clearly articulated
What was clearly articulated by the protesters?
We need to ensure that we're not guilty of revisionism. Hislop is doing (in reverse) exactly what he accuses Blair of doing.
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From: K
that the UK and the US had not got a 2nd UN mandate (see points above)
and that it would inflame the entire region, with many innocents paying the price
this is NOT being wise after the event - these were all clearly articulated at the time
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that the case for war had not been made, that the weapons inspectors where asking for more time
that the UK and the US had not got a 2nd UN mandate (see points above)
and that it would inflame the entire region, with many innocents paying the price
this is NOT being wise after the event - these were all clearly articulated at the time
that the UK and the US had not got a 2nd UN mandate (see points above)
and that it would inflame the entire region, with many innocents paying the price
this is NOT being wise after the event - these were all clearly articulated at the time
Also in the mix were conspiracies about oil, crusades, the usual suspects spouting their anti-US anti-Israel virtiol.
Nobody at the time could possibly foresee the total ****ups we made. Nobody could of know that we'd end up disarming the Iraq army and dissolving the whole aperatus of government.
These were massive contributory factors in the ultimate disaster that is Iraq.
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"Despite championing the moral case for removing Saddam Hussein, Mr Blair insisted the aim of any war would be disarmament."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2773771.stm
A month later:
"Removing Saddam will be a blessing to the Iraqi people"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2870581.stm
"War between the big powers is unlikely, Europe is at peace, the Cold War already a memory."
He couldn't be anymore wrong.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2773771.stm
A month later:
"Removing Saddam will be a blessing to the Iraqi people"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2870581.stm
"War between the big powers is unlikely, Europe is at peace, the Cold War already a memory."
He couldn't be anymore wrong.
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From: K
The UN mandate was never going to be passed. So then what?
Also in the mix were conspiracies about oil, crusades, the usual suspects spouting their anti-US anti-Israel virtiol.
Nobody at the time could possibly foresee the total ****ups we made. Nobody could of know that we'd end up disarming the Iraq army and dissolving the whole aperatus of government.
These were massive contributory factors in the ultimate disaster that is Iraq.
Also in the mix were conspiracies about oil, crusades, the usual suspects spouting their anti-US anti-Israel virtiol.
Nobody at the time could possibly foresee the total ****ups we made. Nobody could of know that we'd end up disarming the Iraq army and dissolving the whole aperatus of government.
These were massive contributory factors in the ultimate disaster that is Iraq.
well sorry, people did foresee it
simply go back and look at the speeches made by Cook, Benn, Corbyn et al
we said it would be a disaster, it was - now you keep saying "hindsight" and "know one could foresee"
that's simply rubbish
as for the second mandate, maybe not - because amazingly Sadam had no weapons of mass destruction
that's why the inspectors could not find any
that's why the international community did not see things the way Bair/Bush did
they did not have the massive cognitive biases - inbuilt into their decision making
Last edited by hodgy0_2; Jul 8, 2016 at 03:27 PM.
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From: K
well maybe it would have become clear the that Sadam did not have WMD - it was all a fiction, he was no threat to us or America, he was simply stymying the international community - pretending to have them not to loose face with his enemies and friends in the region, he was simply playing billy big b0llox
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From: Weston Super Mare, Somerset.
The UN mandate was never going to be passed. So then what?
Also in the mix were conspiracies about oil, crusades, the usual suspects spouting their anti-US anti-Israel virtiol.
Nobody at the time could possibly foresee the total ****ups we made. Nobody could of know that we'd end up disarming the Iraq army and dissolving the whole aperatus of government.
These were massive contributory factors in the ultimate disaster that is Iraq.
Also in the mix were conspiracies about oil, crusades, the usual suspects spouting their anti-US anti-Israel virtiol.
Nobody at the time could possibly foresee the total ****ups we made. Nobody could of know that we'd end up disarming the Iraq army and dissolving the whole aperatus of government.
These were massive contributory factors in the ultimate disaster that is Iraq.
No Martin - there were many sensible Westerners in Iraq who understood the Iraq culture (corruption, need for a strong non-elected leader for starters) and knew what would happen. The trouble was, and perhaps still is, that the warnings they issued were just ignored by an arrogant West. And Western philosophy said that true democracy was the only way forward. That it would not work in countries like Iraq was just not acceptable. Hell no.
David
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From: K
No Martin - there were many sensible Westerners in Iraq who understood the Iraq culture (corruption, need for a strong non-elected leader for starters) and knew what would happen. The trouble was, and perhaps still is, that the warnings they issued were just ignored by an arrogant West. And Western philosophy said that true democracy was the only way forward. That it would not work in countries like Iraq was just not acceptable. Hell no.
David
David
with a high degree of people who spoke Arabic and understood the people & culture
it was steadily run down to the point that virtually no one in the Forieg office speak Arabic etc
as an aside - during the post-war planning in the immediate aftermath of the war - the Americans had only 12 fluent Arabic speakers
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From: The hell where youth and laughter go
I think this sums up the past few weeks quite nicely:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...vid-kelly-live
Maybe we expect too much of anything in terms of Westminster's Government to do anything to better ourselves, or our country...or Iraq...or Syria etc.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...vid-kelly-live
Maybe we expect too much of anything in terms of Westminster's Government to do anything to better ourselves, or our country...or Iraq...or Syria etc.
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From: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
What is a fact though is that there is a centuries old struggle between Sunni and Shia. This was exacerbated by our invasion of Iraq. That struggle is played out across the Middle East and parts of Africa.
Fundamentalist Islam didn't appear the day after we invaded Iraq, it's been on collision course with us for 2 decades (at least).
Fundamentalist Islam didn't appear the day after we invaded Iraq, it's been on collision course with us for 2 decades (at least).
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From: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
judgement day for tony blair would involve the following
SIGN AROUND NECK SAYING I AM TONY I CAUSED THE WAR IN ARABIC
STRIPPED NAKED HANDS TIED BEHING BACK
AND DROPPED OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF BAGDAD
now that might just be proper judgement for the lying ****
SIGN AROUND NECK SAYING I AM TONY I CAUSED THE WAR IN ARABIC
STRIPPED NAKED HANDS TIED BEHING BACK
AND DROPPED OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF BAGDAD
now that might just be proper judgement for the lying ****
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Bush and Blair were unfortunate friends, unfortunate for near enough everybody else.