hodgy0_2

self loathing is a bitter tasting drink

JTaylor

Interesting. Reminds me of American Beauty.

hodgy0_2

sounds like he would rather be thought as a terrorist than gay to me

JTaylor

The ultimate expression of Islamic masculinity?

hodgy0_2

mmmm, I think you are stretching it a bit JT

in fact I think all the right wing commentators who tried to make this an Islamic thing rather than a gay thing look a bit foolish (I listened to a youtube clip by a guy called Douglas Murray spouting rubbish on a radio show - Alib mentioned him in a post - so I looked him up)

and dare I say "the mask slips" from them

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Another regular patron of the club claims to have seen him trying to pick guys up several times on his many visits:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_...lines/36527946

Turbohot

Again, there!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You think he was just trying to blend in then?

Turbohot

No, I think he was trying to 'come out' in the shadows of the dark, but couldn't face up to it hence mass destroyed his shadow within; within the likes.

JTaylor

Fair enough. Would you absolve the Jihadi movement of any blame, then? Also, why would it be the right who'd make it an "Islamic thing"? Why could the left not make the connection, too? Are Islam and the left allies?

My own instinct is that this was neither an out and out Islamist operation, nor the act of a loan wolf madman, nor was it solely about assumed latent homosexuality and or subsequent homophobia. I suspect it was a combination of each of these things plus a challenging relationship with the father coupled with mental health issues and hightened insecurity and probably a host of other complexities of which we're not aware.

I don't think it's possible to claim that one issue or another has a monopoly on cause and I think it's as foolish to exonerate culture as it is to lay blame squarely at its feet. I'm sure you'll concur that the truth lay somewhere in the middle.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Incidentally, I found this a very good read, and this story here also gives a little hope that the US won't be stuck with the same situation indefinitely. It's a not that bad a place to go on holiday, but you really think twice when you see stuff like this.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

If there were no murderous extremist cults anywhere around the world for him to mimic and draw inspiration from, would the guy have done what he did? Probably not, or at least probably not in such an extreme way. To call him a true radical Islamist is still a bit of a stretch though.

dpb

He signed up to the isis moniker at the last moment , cos the loser felt he needed to recognised as somebody imo

hodgy0_2

No I certainly would not absolve them, the Jihadi movement is a murderous cult and can / does provide philosophical and pseudo intelectual cover for this cr4p

But the "right" especially in the U.S. are quite sensitive about this stuff - the illusion of the Republic, gun ownership rules, the terror within

I admit to being quite in tune to this

The Douglas Murray audio was amusing - he said he did not want to discuss Trump (who was just banging on about Islam in his xenophobic ignorant way etc etc)

No, Murray wanted to discuss why no one mentioned Islam (yes really, you could not make it up) - and if it was a Christian then it would be all over the news

Where he worshiped, who was his pastor - Yada Yada

I do wonder how people living a 150 years from now view this conflict

hodgy0_2

Who truly knows his motivation - but personally I don't think he needed Isis

All the mass shooters in the U.S. seem to have mental problems, and combined with semi automatic guns it is a toxic mix

That seems to be the common denominator in pretty much all mass shootings

JTaylor

Do you have a link to the Murray piece?

hodgy0_2

sure

hodgy0_2

Although his article here seems to chime with my analysis

http://henryjacksonsociety.org/2016/...the-best-tune/


On the politics at least

dpb

I suppose the police wouldn't been allowed take his toys away even then , but why didn't his girlfriend suggest to the police that he had mentioned this plot of destruction

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

And the next one.

http://news.sky.com/story/1711944/gu...t-with-hostage

dpb

Ha , wife is now being questioned

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I'm certain that even under US gun laws, the police do have the power to confiscate a person's firearms if they're suspected of preparing a criminal or terrorist act.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Being suspected of preparation to commit an act of terror or a firearms crime will have a serious affect on your well being even in the USA, the penalty far exceeding mere weapons confiscation.

JTaylor

Thanks for the link. I think Murray's absolutely spot-on.

JTaylor

Sound.

Geezer

The guy obviously had issues, it's not normal to walk in to a club and shoot 102 people.


However, if Islam wasn't so against homosexuality, then he would not have been so conflicted. All homophobia is based on religious intolerance of it, Muslim or Christian, it just so happens that Christianity has accepted it, though plenty of its followers have not.


So whilst this is clearly the actions of someone who has some really very serious issues, those issues are rooted in the religion he comes from, so yes, I would say this is an Islamic attack.


If being homosexual was a non issue, it would not have happened.

lozgti1

He was gay.Apparently

JTaylor

Nope. Plenty of examples of secular and atheistic intolerance of homosexuality.

mattstant

They're not as prevalent nor are they entrenched and ordained in scripture though.


Secular intolerance is built mostly on blind ignorance and prejudice.

the none secular has the extremely powerful influence of an all seeing all powerful deity who will burn your **** for eternity if you don't obey their written edicts on same sex congress

once you remove the blind cow towing to these deities and there acolytes you are now dealing with the merely ignorant

As far as actual declared atheists are concerned the pool of ignorance recedes rather more rapidly we are probably more willing to accept that it exists in nature and ergo has a natural occurrence.
These proclivities are starting to be revealed in our very DNA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26089486.

Geezer

I disagree, because widespread atheism and secular societies are a fairly recent thing. I did not say that all homophobia is by religious people, rather that the basis for it is. The Islam and Christianity are anti-homosexual at their cores, and that has been he case for centuries.


If your father drums it in to you that being homosexual is something wrong because the bible tells him so, then the fact that you later become atheist does not change the fact that the basis for that prejudice comes from the teachings of the church.


Attitudes take time to change, and this is the same reason women didn't get the vote until the 20th century, the two main religions in the world hold them in lower esteem.