hodgy0_2

By What mechanism JT

It simply cannot be a re run of a referendum

David Lock

Well it was just a paltry £40 billion wiped of the market yesterday.....


Fuel gone up yet?


David

JTaylor

No idea.

hodgy0_2

Lol, like Pete re Norway option then

JTaylor

Actually I do know, but after England's defeat in the football and several pints of strong beer, I've barely the heart or competence to tap it in to my phone. I'll come back to it.

neil-h

Easy, throw the SNP under the bus. Nicola Sturgeon has already suggested they'd veto the Brexit, a few words behind closed doors and more powers/money for Scotland. Problem solved and we have ourselves a patsy.

hodgy0_2

Lol, I susptected you did

hodgy0_2

Well personally I made my voice known as soon as this nonesense arose

Out means out, the result should be honoured

And we live with consequences good or bad

If you don't have consequences married against actions you may as well give up

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Short of a military coup, or a backroom political deal on a scale that would have to carry with it a serious risk of the country decending into full-scale civil war, it's hard to imagine how it could be avoided that the Out decision is carried through. Let's not kid ourselves, we all know the real reason Warren went off in a huff (or pretended to). It was cover for him to retreat into his bunker and start building up a nice stockpile of tinned food and ammo, in anticipation of just the kind of manoeuvre we're discussing here

An0n0m0us

An0n0m0us

Except some professor of politics or whoever he was at one of the Scottish universities has already come out and said Holyrood cannot stop this as Westmister has the ultimate say despite what Holyrood says (written in the rules somewhere). So it would seem Nicola Sturgeon doesn't even know the rules if she seriously thinks she can stop the UK leaving the EU. More a case of her blowing her own trumpet trying to look good as usual.

DYK

I was watching her on the telly a few days ago.I had this vision of her standing there stamping her feet saying,I'm going to block the brexit,the vote didn't go the way I wanted it to...😭

Martin2005

She's representing the people that voted for her, what do you expect her to do?


It's attitudes like yours that place the future of the union in grave danger

Martin2005

Well this is a bad time for me to respond as I've just watched England lose to Iceland and I've decided that drinking away my sorrows was the best solution, but here goes, I apologise in advance for the rambling nature of my response...

As I understand it the Norway model is off the table. I'm sure the EU would be happy with it, but the UK cannot go there, as this would fail many of the promises made during the campaign (most importantly freedom of movement).

The final settlement with the EU is obviously unclear at the moment, I'm guessing that we'll ultimately go for some sort of payment for access deal. Even this is going to take some selling as it's likely to be expensive and cut deep into the '£350M' a week (cough) we're supposed to be saving.

I do think that it's time to stop going on about second referendums though. It's over. As a democrat I'd go as far as to say that, if by some incredible set of circumstances we did vote again, I'd be compelled to vote for Leave, as anything else would make a mockery of the process we've just been through.

We face genuine short to mid-term economic challenges now and we need to be careful that we don't talk ourselves into a recession. There is a danger of schadenfreude overwhelming this debate.

Don't get me wrong though, I believe we have made a terrible mistake, and that we've damaged our country in ways that could disadvantage our country for decades to come. We should hold those that campaigned for us to leave to account for what they said, and judge them against events, I will be relentless on that.

I'm proud to of been on the same side of this argument with you JT, DL, BMW and all the others who've articulated the arguments far better than I have. You are good people with good motives.


I'm cross that the Union Flag is being waved in victory, that's my flag, I'm only British, I'm not English, Scottish or Welsh, Northern Irish, I'm BRITISH - the irony is that those waving it in any other context would be waving the a different flag and they have placed the union this flag represents in peril.

Also, let's all unite to face down the nasty nationalism that's rearing it's ugly head, politician talk about it, but it's only the people that can really challenge it.

I've heard too many hollow claims about about 'taking back control' during this debate, people telling me how important democracy is. Well let's do it then, let's take back control. Let's have democracy. Let's make everyone in this country's vote count equally. Let's get rid of the unfair and anti-democratic system the ensures that the minority can govern over the majority. When this happens then I'll really start to believe those who claimed to be on the side of the people.

Finally, when did being liberal become something to be derided? I'll take being liberal over being illiberal any day. From my experience liberals tend to have good instincts and decent values.


Finally finally, how **** were England tonight?

DYK

Representing .what going on tv Martin threatening to block a winning vote,what's the point in voting then if some can't respect the outcome.
Since this vote,all the remain have been doing is crying and arguing,it's not fair,we want another referendum,throwing your toys out pram,Grow up and toughen.you didn't get the result you wanted,take it on the chin and get onboard.
Martin this country has been through much more dangerous things than a referendum.

JTaylor

Nice post, Martin. I disagree with your position on a second referendum; in my view it would be worth damaging our democracatic credentials and having our pride battered when the pay-off is the promise of the country's sanity being restored. Should a second round end in a victory for remain (and I'm certain it would) this debacle would be reduced to a sizeable footnote in the history books rather than the heavy, Sophoclean tome that is being drafted as we speak. I'd urge you to reconsider your admirable and understandable stance on this and ask that you identify which road affords the least danger. England were abysmal.

DYK

Maybe you should demand the match is played again,because you didn't get the result you wanted first time round. 👍

JTaylor

The first referendum wasn't binding. The government could, quite simply, call another on the grounds that the leave campaign was guilty of mis-selling. When people suffer buyers' remorse they're often assured by a cooling off period. When said remorse is compounded by a sense that one's been cheated, there's the prospect of a refund. Why can't we apply these principles to something as gargantuan as leaving the EU?

cuprajake

iTrader: (11)

To call onebnow, whilst the markets are still reacting is too early. Ans would result in a scared vote to stay in

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Oh dear, more wishful twaddle. If there were to be an assessment of mis-selling then even you must agree that both sides would be found equally guilty, so your argument immediately collapses. And of course the referendum is binding however distasteful the result may be for you.

JTaylor

According to which law, please?

jonc

IMO to push a head with exit at the moment would be foolhardy since there is no post Brexit plan. How would one approach the negotiating table or begin formal talks with the EU?

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Any right thinking person would concede that 17 million voters is all the law that's needed. I voted remain but would immediately vote to leave if any government dared to attempt a second referendum.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Not only that, but just about every winning general election campaign as far back as anyone alive can remember. That alone though shouldn't stop what JT is suggesting from happening, but what it does tell us is that any solution that backs away from going ahead with Out would have to start with some very frank admissions on both sides. On the Remain side, that among other things, they lied about wanting to have the referendum to start with, just to get voted back in at the last election. On the Leave side, that they never had a clue what they'd do if they actually won, and even now that they have, still don't really have a gameplan which they can be sure will deliver even a small fraction of what they promised during their campaign. This would have to be the starting point for any backing out, but as I jokingly hinted at in my earlier post, even if enough of the personalities involved could be persuaded to go down this road, it would run the risk of the electorate losing absolutely all trust in our political system. From there, it could be a surprisingly small jump to out and out revolution, if the people in charge don't tread very, very carefully.

hodgy0_2

Jeez, what is it with you Brxiteers, please read his post agaiin you just look ike a fool

andy97

iTrader: (1)

No law, to respect the people's majority wish. Soon as go against the basis on which this country is governed, we are doomed to anarchy

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It's a pretty sorry choice though. If backing away from Out means going down the path of brutally frank honesty (since both sides of thereferendum campaign were fought on the basis of massive lies), then going ahead with Out has to mean continuing down the path of the same bald-faced lies that got us here to start with. Potential anarchy, or sucking up a political system you know is blatantly lieing to you the entire time, which would you rather have?

andy97

iTrader: (1)

I knew they were telling porkies. I had my own desire of what I wanted and voted with the side that was likely to deliver it.

If this referendum has taught anyone, politicians lie, news outlets lie. They all have their own agenda.

At the moment news headlines are all doom and gloom, it ain't that bad

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Whilst I agreed wholeheartedly with most of your post, Martin, I felt minded to answer this last question.

The answer is, when it threatens the underpinnings of society, such as when it allows convicted rapists, murderers etc to remain in the UK because they are now married, or have a cat that would suffer.

Or when we start with so called positive discrimination, or when folk take it on themselves to be insulted or upset on behalf of others.

I'm all for liberalism, but we have to draw the line SOMEWHERE, or it descends society into anarchy.

hodgy0_2

yet you still tried to do fantasy maths with the £350 million

you really are a fvcking joke

you, petem alcazar and warren